Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Cronch wrote:
I wonder how time-consuming it really is sculpt-wise seeing as most of the models can be ripped from TW:WH and adjusted in whatever program they use probably? They're not painstakingly hand-sculpting each one after all.

Yes and no.

3D for games is very different to 3D for STLs and 3D printing. First up you've got to fix the files to even print and then you can still have a lot of issues. Video games often have a lot of parts that are designed which simply flow into each other. Armour that just vanishes into other bits of armour. This is generally ok for video games like TW because even zoomed in everything is moving so its a bit hidden and the game isn't trying to mimic perfect motion of armours and body parts. However its still you very much see with a still sculpt if chunks of armour are just vanishing into other chunks etc...

Finally GW doesn't 3D print as a product, they use masters yes, but the actual product is cast plastic. That means its got to be designed and detail sculpted so that it will work with plastic injection moulding. TW designs don't even have to consider that so they will have overhangs and angles and such that would be a nightmare to work with. Heck even with 3D printing if you're not careful you can end up with insanely difficult to support areas or access with a paint brush and such.


Honestly its likely a lot easier for GW to just let their designers work from the ground up than it is to try and rework designs that just aren't made for cast model production.

 Overread wrote:

Cronch wrote:
I wonder how time-consuming it really is sculpt-wise seeing as most of the models can be ripped from TW:WH and adjusted in whatever program they use probably? They're not painstakingly hand-sculpting each one after all.

Yes and no.

3D for games is very different to 3D for STLs and 3D printing. First up you've got to fix the files to even print and then you can still have a lot of issues. Video games often have a lot of parts that are designed which simply flow into each other. Armour that just vanishes into other bits of armour. This is generally ok for video games like TW because even zoomed in everything is moving so its a bit hidden and the game isn't trying to mimic perfect motion of armours and body parts. However its still you very much see with a still sculpt if chunks of armour are just vanishing into other chunks etc...

Finally GW doesn't 3D print as a product, they use masters yes, but the actual product is cast plastic. That means its got to be designed and detail sculpted so that it will work with plastic injection moulding. TW designs don't even have to consider that so they will have overhangs and angles and such that would be a nightmare to work with. Heck even with 3D printing if you're not careful you can end up with insanely difficult to support areas or access with a paint brush and such.


Honestly its likely a lot easier for GW to just let their designers work from the ground up than it is to try and rework designs that just aren't made for cast model production.

Not only is all of this true (Adeptus Titanicus has similar issues but along a different axis) but it is also prudent from a legal perspective to make sure that the sculptors work directly from in-house concept art. Derivative copyright and trademarks are a thing and a major headache to untangle should an agreement expire without a defined settlement. This is how Coca-Cola lost the trademark to one of their own logos to an artist they hired to do work for them. Admittedly that was mostly viable because of a timing mix-up that allowed the original trademark to expire but that really only proves that mistakes happen and can have significant consequences.

Ahh yes that's very true, whilst CA needs the GW licence to make and sell TW Warhammer; GW would need a licence from CA to use CA's actual designs for them. That just creates a messy cycle of potential legal issues in the future and might even cost GW more in the short term to buy that licence for manufacture and sale of designs; than it would just to pay in-house staff to work for them on the designs.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
GODS this is so annoying. WFB is coming back, it'll be in the normal scale, it'll be on squares, there will be rules for ALL the older factions as well as the new ones, and you won't lose your AOS in order W:TOW to come out.

I agree with all of that, even if the last one is disappointing...

No need to be an ass just because people like something you don't. But it is concerning they seem to leaning so human-centric at the off. If it does turn out to be Empire, Cathay, Kislev and Brettonia at launch, it will make it very dull.

I doubt it will be that human-centric, even thought the maps (and other art) they've shown give that impression. For starters, some kind of two-faction launch box seems a given, and I can't see them 1) putting in two human factions (even 40k is typically more diverse than that, despite always including Marines), and 2) almost any combination of armies is a more iconic match-up than some version of those 4. Admittedly, point 2) is historically variable (Dwarfs v Night Goblins, yes, Brets v Lizardmen... erm, not quite so much), but it seems a logical strategy for the relaunch. Empire versus Orcs could be a nice shout: iconic armies, classic match-up, nostalgia from the 6th edition box, updated sculpts for the old and OOP Orcs, as well as for the little-loved State Troops (new ones obviously need some puffed sleeves and less zombie-esque facial sculpts).

Another thing, the whole map focus is of course also due to the nature of things - if Beastmen and Skaven were more into openly settling in places, their coats of arms might well have appeared. The Wood Elves were depicted prominently on the Bretonnia map too, while they also highlighted the High Elven outposts, and Dwarfs and Greenskins were also clearly shown on several maps.

 Overread wrote:
Ahh yes that's very true, whilst CA needs the GW licence to make and sell TW Warhammer; GW would need a licence from CA to use CA's actual designs for them. That just creates a messy cycle of potential legal issues in the future and might even cost GW more in the short term to buy that licence for manufacture and sale of designs; than it would just to pay in-house staff to work for them on the designs.

I'd be surprised if GW don't have some clauses in their contracts with CA that assets developed for and from GW products remain GW's property.

But I don't even know if most WHFB would be computer models to begin with, when did GW start using CAD?

I don't know much about pre-CAD injection moulding, but wouldn't they make a master of the entire sprue, then a machine would replicate that onto a mould? Or maybe they'd make the inverse of a sprue to be copied?

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

VBS wrote:
I've even seen a guy who insists that TOW is only a publicity stunt to boost Total War.

It is unheard of for GW to announce a game so far ahead of time, so I don't doubt that choice was a publicity stunt. It's a bit of a stretch to say the whole thing was a publicity stunt and they're not actually working on a game, but I don't blame someone for thinking that way. Vapourware is a thing and it could happen here, as unlikely as that may be at this point.

It was undoubtedly a publicity stunt considering it was announced about a month after Kings of War 3.0 was. It worked because now most rank and file talk has turned to "I'm only playing [KoW/Oathmark/Conquest/9thAge] until TOW is out!"

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Ahh yes that's very true, whilst CA needs the GW licence to make and sell TW Warhammer; GW would need a licence from CA to use CA's actual designs for them. That just creates a messy cycle of potential legal issues in the future and might even cost GW more in the short term to buy that licence for manufacture and sale of designs; than it would just to pay in-house staff to work for them on the designs.

I'd be surprised if GW don't have some clauses in their contracts with CA that assets developed for and from GW products remain GW's property.

But I don't even know if most WHFB would be computer models to begin with, when did GW start using CAD?

I don't know much about pre-CAD injection moulding, but wouldn't they make a master of the entire sprue, then a machine would replicate that onto a mould? Or maybe they'd make the inverse of a sprue to be copied?

Pre-CAD the sculpts were manually cut into the die using a milling machine slaved to a 3:1 pantograph - hence the old “3 up” masters that occasionally appear - then the runners and vents were cut afterwards. Of course they had experience and some mathematical tools to assist in developing the layout but it was nowhere near as precise as today. And yeah, occasionally a runner just wouldn’t work properly so they had to re-cut it and block off the channels. Leaving room for that was part of why the old sprues were so empty (the other being injector pressure limits).
These days the whole thing is pre-calculated and simulated before cutting the whole thing as a single automated run.
(Source:- talking to one of the tool room guys at games day ‘96 so please allow for fuzziness of memory)

Hm, predicting what the starter factions will be...

I'm betting Empire vs Greenskins. Two iconic yet average (relatively speaking) factions, strong availability for resculpts that should be both hard to mess up and are in need of resculpts anyways, and as a side benefit lines up nicely for miniatures getting crossover use in AoS.

 Mr_Rose wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Ahh yes that's very true, whilst CA needs the GW licence to make and sell TW Warhammer; GW would need a licence from CA to use CA's actual designs for them. That just creates a messy cycle of potential legal issues in the future and might even cost GW more in the short term to buy that licence for manufacture and sale of designs; than it would just to pay in-house staff to work for them on the designs.

I'd be surprised if GW don't have some clauses in their contracts with CA that assets developed for and from GW products remain GW's property.

But I don't even know if most WHFB would be computer models to begin with, when did GW start using CAD?

I don't know much about pre-CAD injection moulding, but wouldn't they make a master of the entire sprue, then a machine would replicate that onto a mould? Or maybe they'd make the inverse of a sprue to be copied?

Pre-CAD the sculpts were manually cut into the die using a milking machine slaved to a 3:1 pantograph - hence the old “3 up” masters that occasionally appear - then the runners and vents were cut afterwards. Of course they had experience and some mathematical tools to assist in developing the layout but it was nowhere near as precise as today. And yeah, occasionally a runner just wouldn’t work properly so they had to re-cut it and block off the channels. Leaving room for that was part of why the old sprues were so empty (the other being injector pressure limits).
These days the whole thing is pre-calculated and simulated before cutting the whole thing as a single automated run.
(Source:- talking to one of the tool room guys at games day ‘96 so please allow for fuzziness of memory)

Yeah, I thought it was something along those lines, as I've seen 3 ups and I've also seen "prototype" sprues (full sprues) of model aircraft that weren't metal and I assumed were masters from which metal moulds were cut.

Though I figured to make a mould you'd need your master to be an inverse of the actual part, so maybe you sculpt a master, then make a separate mould off that then machine the mould off that? And some parts are hollow, so I guess you'd need a separate master that has the internal shape to be cut into the other half of the mould?

I think Empire in the starting box is a given, there's also the civil war happening in the timeline so I figure there will be upgrade sprues abound for the specific factions.

Boring option: Empire vs Orcs or Chaos
Good option: Kislev vs Chaos
Unlikely: Cathay vs Chaos.

Cathay vs Kislev would be fun, if only for the “wait, but, how" factor. Which is easy; Kislev is closer to Cathay, because the world gets narrower at the top. :p

Empire vs. Orcs
Empire vs. Chaos
Kisley vs Chaos
Empire & Kislev vs Chaos

Those are the most realistic starter Sets - in my oppinion. One of them will comming for sure.

RazorEdge wrote:
Empire vs. Orcs
Empire vs. Chaos
Kisley vs Chaos
Empire & Kislev vs Chaos

Those are the most realistic starter Sets - in my oppinion. One of them will comming for sure.

I'm not particularly convinced. We've bizarrely heard nothing about non-human armies. I don't think they'll go so far as to do none, but there focus so far leaves us completely in the dark as to their intentions when it comes to their release model or flagship product.

 Overread wrote:

Cronch wrote:
I wonder how time-consuming it really is sculpt-wise seeing as most of the models can be ripped from TW:WH and adjusted in whatever program they use probably? They're not painstakingly hand-sculpting each one after all.

Yes and no.

3D for games is very different to 3D for STLs and 3D printing. First up you've got to fix the files to even print and then you can still have a lot of issues. Video games often have a lot of parts that are designed which simply flow into each other. Armour that just vanishes into other bits of armour. This is generally ok for video games like TW because even zoomed in everything is moving so its a bit hidden and the game isn't trying to mimic perfect motion of armours and body parts. However its still you very much see with a still sculpt if chunks of armour are just vanishing into other chunks etc...

Finally GW doesn't 3D print as a product, they use masters yes, but the actual product is cast plastic. That means its got to be designed and detail sculpted so that it will work with plastic injection moulding. TW designs don't even have to consider that so they will have overhangs and angles and such that would be a nightmare to work with. Heck even with 3D printing if you're not careful you can end up with insanely difficult to support areas or access with a paint brush and such.


Honestly its likely a lot easier for GW to just let their designers work from the ground up than it is to try and rework designs that just aren't made for cast model production.

Don't forget that TW:WH models are pretty low poly compared to anything you'd want to print, with most of the detail created via clever textures and bump mapping. It takes a *lot* of work to turn them into anything printable. Take it from someone who's printed a whole bunch of spawn from the game.

Honestly, I just thought of using the existing WHTW models to base the sculpts on for GW sculptors so the baseline is done and the minis look like what most potential players are familiar with, not that GW would literally print them out...

Voss wrote:

RazorEdge wrote:
Empire vs. Orcs
Empire vs. Chaos
Kisley vs Chaos
Empire & Kislev vs Chaos

Those are the most realistic starter Sets - in my oppinion. One of them will comming for sure.

I'm not particularly convinced. We've bizarrely heard nothing about non-human armies. I don't think they'll go so far as to do none, but there focus so far leaves us completely in the dark as to their intentions when it comes to their release model or flagship product.

Now this is a dangerous thought, but would it be inconceivable to think that since GW more than likely still has molds from older kits that some of the previous starter sets or plastic kits could be easily thrown in? If that's the case, then you have the last three WFB starter sets easily ported in. Granted the last two had the sprues so intertwined that the factions couldn't be separated out, but it leaves the possibility. Hell, it leaves the possibility for multiple "versus" sets if they so see fit. Some have some problematic loadouts, like the lone Troll, but it's still plausible.

Island of Blood was one of the best wargame starters of all time. That stuff looked as good if not a hell of a lot better than countless kits still on GWs lineup.

A big question is how far back did GW use the cad design software for making sprues, how many of the old warhammer kits are digital?

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
A big question is how far back did GW use the cad design software for making sprues, how many of the old warhammer kits are digital?

Every Release after the Orc and Goblin release in the early 7th Edition. They were the first release with Cad Miniatures and the only with an mix.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Island of Blood was one of the best wargame starters of all time. That stuff looked as good if not a hell of a lot better than countless kits still on GWs lineup.

And then it came back as a set for AoS for 65€.

Good times.

I'd put money on an Empire vs Orcs starter box. They're fairly easy to understand and popular factions and a match up that happens often in the fluff. Chaos would be a contender but for the fact that the timeline is set before the Great War against Chaos, so Chaos shouldn't be front and centre but lurking just off stage. From a fluffy perspective Chaos warrior warbands entering the Empire should be few and far between at this time.

Empire vs Empire would probably make a lot of sense given the timeline but it makes no commercial sense, so that's out of the reckoning.

As a wildcard, I'd pick Kislev popping up in some form considering they were the first faction to have artwork revealed but I suspect that's probably a product of the TWW3 development happening simultaneously.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Island of Blood was one of the best wargame starters of all time. That stuff looked as good if not a hell of a lot better than countless kits still on GWs lineup.

The High Elf Prince on Griffon to this day is one of the best sculpts they've ever produced.

I really hope when they’re writing the background for the Empire someone takes the opportunity to officially add the term Goldswords into the lore as a unit of two handed sword wielding men who were extremely expensive to employ.

Joyboozer wrote:
I really hope when they’re writing the background for the Empire someone takes the opportunity to officially add the term Goldswords into the lore as a unit of two handed sword wielding men who were extremely expensive to employ.

The Empire has already a Unit with Greatswords.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Cathay vs Kislev would be fun, if only for the “wait, but, how" factor. Which is easy; Kislev is closer to Cathay, because the world gets narrower at the top. :p

Also but...why?

Hoping for Kislev or Cathay vs Chaos - mainly because might get new Ulrika model (Human and vampire for extra awesomeness) or Miao Ying (human and Dagon) like we had with Morathi

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Cathay vs Kislev would be fun, if only for the “wait, but, how" factor. Which is easy; Kislev is closer to Cathay, because the world gets narrower at the top. :p

Also but...why?

Hoping for Kislev or Cathay vs Chaos - mainly because might get new Ulrika model (Human and vampire for extra awesomeness) or Miao Ying (human and Dagon) like we had with Morathi

If one box had Cathay and Kislev, it would be a box to buy. Kislev and chaos…I’ll see what the Kislev half goes for. Oh, a lot. And the actual Kislev release wave will be even more ridiculously priced? Cool cool cool.

And no, I don’t consider “just sell the chaos half (for peanuts)” an appealing option.

 Galas wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Island of Blood was one of the best wargame starters of all time. That stuff looked as good if not a hell of a lot better than countless kits still on GWs lineup.

And then it came back as a set for AoS for 65€.

Good times.

And then went out of production again, sad times T-T

RazorEdge wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
I really hope when they’re writing the background for the Empire someone takes the opportunity to officially add the term Goldswords into the lore as a unit of two handed sword wielding men who were extremely expensive to employ.

The Empire has already a Unit with Greatswords.

Yes. A unit of the miniatures was so expensive to buy they were dubbed goldswords by the community.

RazorEdge wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
A big question is how far back did GW use the cad design software for making sprues, how many of the old warhammer kits are digital?

Every Release after the Orc and Goblin release in the early 7th Edition. They were the first release with Cad Miniatures and the only with an mix.

I know the Battle for Skull Pass troll was CAD, because it has the same base torso as the (much) later plaguebearer kit.