Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I like my Dreadknights but I've been toying around the idea of some tweaks. Apologies if anything here has been suggested.

Dreadshield
A Dreadshield is a massive slab of adamantium with a built in
force field generator utilizing the same arcane technology as the
Imperial Stormshield. Far too heavy for even Terminator armour,
it is only usable by the Dreadknight powered exoskeleton.

A model equipped with a Dreadshield has a 3+ invulnerable save.

For +75 points, A Nemesis Dreadknight may trade both Nemesis Doomfists for
a Nemesis Greatsword and a Dreadshield or a Nemesis DaemonHammer and
a Dreadshield. It may take no further weapons.

It may still take a Personal Teleporter for +75 points.

Too much or does the lack of ranged weapons balance it out? How about a 4+ or would that be confusing with regular SS? How about it allowing a re-roll of the 5+?

------------------------ OR ------------------------

Allow a Nemesis Dreadknight to take two of the same ranged weapon.

If so, should the Heavy Psycannon and Heavy Psilencer be twin-linked? Shoot twice?

How about the Heavy Incinerator? Re-roll the wounds? Resolve the template twice? +1 to the AP?

------------------------------------------------------

Are either of these at least playable or just ludicrous?

DoW

Hard to say about the Dreadshield. 50 points for basically doubling your resiliency against anti-armor / power weapons is in correct ballpark, but might be even worth 70 points.

For 4++ the 50 points is definitely fine, might be even bit too expensive. (5++ re-roll is slightly better than 4++)

As for allowing same weapon twice, it's problematic. If you allow shooting twice, it's kinda overpowered in Heavy Incinerator case.
And if you just twin-link them, it's not worth the points.
Perhaps ability to purchase twin-link for ~20 points? Represented by having same weapon twice on the model.

DogOfWar wrote:I like my Dreadknights but I've been toying around the idea of some tweaks. Apologies if anything here has been suggested.

Dreadshield
A Dreadshield is a massive slab of adamantium with a built in
force field generator utilizing the same arcane technology as the
Imperial Stormshield. Far too heavy for even Terminator armour,
it is only usable by the Dreadknight powered exoskeleton.

A model equipped with a Dreadshield has a 3+ invulnerable save.

For +75 points, A Nemesis Dreadknight may trade both Nemesis Doomfists for
a Nemesis Greatsword and a Dreadshield or a Nemesis DaemonHammer and
a Dreadshield. It may take no further weapons.

It may still take a Personal Teleporter for +75 points.

a 4++ is worth about 40 and a 3++ is worth about 80 in my estimation. This being on top of the 5++ it already has.

Too much or does the lack of ranged weapons balance it out? How about a 4+ or would that be confusing with regular SS? How about it allowing a re-roll of the 5+?

------------------------ OR ------------------------

Allow a Nemesis Dreadknight to take two of the same ranged weapon.

If so, should the Heavy Psycannon and Heavy Psilencer be twin-linked? Shoot twice?

How about the Heavy Incinerator? Re-roll the wounds? Resolve the template twice? +1 to the AP?

------------------------------------------------------

Are either of these at least playable or just ludicrous?

DoW

...why does he need the the dreadshield?
I mean, he's already a T6 4-5W MC with a 2+ 5++ save for crying out loud! And you want to give him a 3++?
Just...no. GK already have enough toys. This is excessive.

Now, giving him 2 ranged weapons I'm ok with.
I would say it'll have to be TL though, otherwise he'll churn out a crazy amount of hi-strength shots a turn.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:...why does he need the the dreadshield?
I mean, he's already a T6 4-5W MC with a 2+ 5++ save for crying out loud! And you want to give him a 3++?
Just...no. GK already have enough toys. This is excessive.

He has 4 wounds.

You must take the shield and a sword or hammer for 75 points (making the model 205) essentially giving him -1 attack and forbidding ranged weaponry.

I don't think it is as crazy as you make it sound, but perhaps. Isn't there a Daemon MC witha re-rollable 4++ and good psychic powers? How much does he cost?

DoW

He's also a unique Special Character that's about...well, I can't say it here since the mods frown upon posting points values, but he is certainly way pricier than the DK.

Well then, make him a unique DK character for 300 points? 400? As they say, everything has a price!

I really don't think it's that powerful with the 3++ (after all, TH/SS go down eventually too) even with a teleporter, and that gets him to 280.

DoW

He's almost 335 points, that unique fellow. ALMOST!

TH/SS don't have T6 with 4 wounds.
But yeah, a Special character DK is fine. Special Characters I think have the benefit of being OTT.

I like the concept of the dreadshield, but I feel that it is undercosted for only +50pts. Keep in mind that:

- he's T6 with 4 wounds.

- he can move 12" and 30" once per game.

- he's got a 2+ save

- he's a mobile force weapon unit that can just kill other MC's (except for most chaos).

Also, consider necron lords/overlords pay 45pts for their Invuln.


To me, the dreadshield should be a minimum of 60pts just by itself.

Bloodhorror wrote:He's almost 335 points, that unique fellow. ALMOST!

Good call. Then I'm thinking 300 points for a TH/SS DK is more reasonable. A re-rollable 4++ is better, statistically, than a 3++ after all. The DK also gets mediocre psychic powers. Maybe give him a couple of options from the Librarian list to make him a 'Librarian DK' and give him an Iron Halo instead?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:TH/SS don't have T6 with 4 wounds.

True, but they don't cost 280 points each. The equivalent cost in TH/SS Terminators would easily kill a DK in one round of combat, 3++ or not.

jy2 wrote:I like the concept of the dreadshield, but I feel that it is undercosted for only +50pts. Keep in mind that:

- he can move 12" and 30" once per game.

- he's a mobile force weapon unit that can just kill other MC's (except for most chaos).

This is the biggest factor, I think. The ability to jump around with a NFW (and the 30" shunt), even without any ranged weapons, makes him very, very scary if he has a 2+/3++.

I think making him 225 for TH/SS with the option to buy a jump pack is getting more reasonable.

DoW

Don't compare a dreadknight to the Fateweaver. Fateweaver has a worse stat line (less toughness and wound, among others), and he must take a Ld test if he fails a save. If he fails the Ld test (Ld 9 by the way), he is removed.

Frankly, a dreadknight with a 3++ is unnecessary. Considering the durability of the unit, topped with the multitude of other threats in the army, it'd just be a pain to balance. The dreadknight is fine as is.

Actually, Dreadknight will lose to pretty much every Greater Deamon. Assume DK will use Dark Excommunication each turn succesfully.
And DK has Greatsword (re-roll failed wounds, preferred enemy takes care of the re-roll hit)

DK:
WS5 S6 T6 W4 I4 A3 5++
vs:
Bloodthirster:
WS10 S7 T6 W4 I5 A4 4++
Keeper of Secrets
WS8 S6 T6 W4 I10 A6 4++
Lord of Change
WS5 S6 T6 W4 I5 A3 3++
Unclean one
WS6 S6 T6 W5 I2 A4 4++


Short version: assuming no charge on either side, DK will cause 0.844 wounds per turn on BT/KoS/UO and 0.563 per turn on LoC.
BT will cause 1.481 wounds / turn on DK, KoS will cause 1.333 wounds/turn., UO will cause 0.889 wounds/turn. Even LoC will cause 0.667 wounds / turn.
And all but UO will hit before DK does.

Short form: DK with Sword will lose fight against any Greater Daemon he encounters, unless Deamon player is really unlucky when rolling against LD10.

If you are planning on going toe-to-toe with greater daemon, bring Thunder hammer. It will give up those numbers by ~10% and give you ability to strike first in later rounds. It's not enough to give you win, but it will make your chances lot better.

The nemesis greatsword already gives rerolls to both hit and wound, look back at your GK codex in the weapons section. Just a small gripe.

gpfunk wrote:The nemesis greatsword already gives rerolls to both hit and wound, look back at your GK codex in the weapons section. Just a small gripe.

I know that very well. My point was that DK will get the re-roll to hit against daemons with any weapon.
This makes Thunderhammer actually better weapon against Greater Daemons than Greatsword is.

But this doesn't change the fact, that NDK is actually very poor Greater Daemon killer. You need to have good luck to kill any of them in 1vs1, and you're basically hosed if you fail Dark Excommunication against KoS or if BT gets a charge.

Chance of killing BT/KoS via Daemonbane is litlle less than 6% per turn.

Even still, they all cause 1 wound on each other per turn, as decimals are rounded. Meaning that unless fighting a GUO he will reduce them to 1 wound before dying. In the case of the GUO, he will reduce it to 2.

If given NDH and Dark X goes off it goes like this. All GD go first except GUO and no charges.

Bloodthirstermakes 3.333 hits, 2.2 wounds and Dreadknight loses 1.481 wounds per turn. Meaning 1.
In return he does 2.25 hits, 1.875 wounds and the BT loses 0.9375 wound per turn. Meaning 1


DK will be dead in 2 turns and BT will be at 1 wounds.

DK makes 3 attacks, hits with 2.25, wounding 1.875, 0.9375 wounds on GUO
GUO hits with 2 attacks, wounds with 1, this is 0.666 wounds and DK takes 1 wound.

The GUO will be n 1 wound and the Dreadknight dead after 4 rounds like this.

LoC

LoC goes first. Hits with 1.5, wounds 0.75, dreadknight takes 0.5 wounds =1.
Dreadknight hits 2.25, wounds, 1.875, LoC takes 0.625 wounds=1.

The Dreadknight will die and the LoC will be on 1 wound.

KoS will make 4 attacks, wound 2, failed saves=0.666=1
Dk will hit 2.25, wound 1.875 and cause 0.9375.

KoS wins.

So, a Dreadknight armed with DH still loses but does significant damage in return. However, a DK with DH costs just 145pts. A GD costs much more. Factoring guns and PT for the DK as well as charging may alter these.

Dark Excommunication doesn't really effect many Greater Daemons though.

The bloodthirister doesn't really have any Daemonic Gifts that will affect the combat other than Unholy Might.

The Great unclean one will lose out on his assualt grenades and Noxious Touch.

Keeper of Secrets will lose her hit and run if she has it.

Lord of change will lose his shooty powers and Maybe Soul Devourer.

Still, it can.make the difference. Plus, they have Marks which it could effect. Not so.much the Keeper but the others.

I like the Dreadshield idea a lot because i think the DK really needs a better than 5+ invul save - it's too easy to field lots of AP2 or better weaponry and your opponent will always have some that he can target a DK with. But contrary to what most replies seem to suggest, I think it may actually be too expensive. Well, perhaps not too expensive but in the context of what he'd be capable of, it would be a lot of points to spend on one model.

You would always have to give him the teleporter so he would cost 280 points and not being able to have the two doomfists, he would lose the extra attack they bring. So he'd be 4 attacks on the charge or 3 attacks off the charge. He'd be great against tanks but would basically get tied up for an entire game against a cheap, large squad of orks/nids/guard. Even against 5 x TH/SS termies, they'd probably be locked in combat for 2/3 turns. He would also still be competing with the Psyrifle dreads.

I've got 1 DK and have used him quite a bit and have found that he's not particularly efficient against much and that you would probably benefit most from running two or three of them, in which case you'd have to spend 280 X 3 with this upgrade and then you'd only be able to field Ven Dreads which cost a lot, too.

Overall, I think that the DK suffers from poor rules design that just makes him a less useful option in his Force Org slot and whilst I think that he does need a better invul save, the loss of an extra attack, the loss of ranged weaponry and the cost of the shield would just make him more difficult to field than he already is.

Can anyone Mathhammer the following

Undivided Princes
Khorne Princes
Nugle Princes
Tzeentch Princes
Summond Greaters

Against the DK.

Also, can anyone do previously mathhammered units with the Dreadshield.

Deadshot wrote:Still, it can.make the difference. Plus, they have Marks which it could effect. Not so.much the Keeper but the others.

Chaos Daemons don't have marks on anything other than the Daemon Prince. And i'm inclined to say DE Doesn't affect Marks of Chaos on Daemon Princes....

Deadshot wrote:Also, can anyone do previously mathhammered units with the Dreadshield.

I'd like to see that too. I think the 3++ would even the playing field.

Also, why cast Dark Excommunication instead of activating the NFW? Surely instakill is more desirable against Greater Daemons and Princes. Or are they all Eternal Warriors?

Cheers,

DoW

CthuluIsSpy wrote:...why does he need the the dreadshield?
I mean, he's already a T6 4-5W MC with a 2+ 5++ save for crying out loud! And you want to give him a 3++?
Just...no. GK already have enough toys. This is excessive.

Now, giving him 2 ranged weapons I'm ok with.
I would say it'll have to be TL though, otherwise he'll churn out a crazy amount of hi-strength shots a turn.

I love it when people say "just... no." it's so indignant.

But, you're right. GK have too much on their plate. We have amazing basic troops, great grenades and excellent heavy weapons. We do NOT need a 3++ invuln on the dreadknight.