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So, I've been trying to perfect my army list, so when the next tournament comes by, I can actually win! (finally)
And i've been thinking that pks really aren't worth it when it comes to Nobz, why not just use big choppas? they save you 20 pts, and you only loose 2 ST, which when fighting most things doesn't really matter .__.
your thoughts? am I wrong, or am I finally on to something?

Yes, you are wrong.
Sorry to be blunt, but a squad without a klaw is just asking for your day to end badly.
The klaw is to only way to reliably take down vehicles (especially dreads), monsterous creatures with T6 or more, and pretty much anything with a decent armor save.
Losing the klaw means your squad won't stand up to any kind of powerful unit in combat, and you have next to no hope against terminators, or the dreaded paladins. And if your opponent has a dread, you will make their day.
If you are talking about a Nobz squad, you don't have to give them all PKs, but I always take at least one for every 5.

Agreed. Big Choppa isn't a power Weapon.

Also, I always loved that art for Crisis Suits DakkaHammer (talking about your profile pic).

What DakkaHammer said.

You are losing the powerweapon part of the PK, which means that your nobz will even struggle against aspect warriors or regular marines, as 2/3 of their attacks are going to bounce off their 3+ armor. At least two klaws in a nobz mob are no less than mandatory. I wouldn't add much more of them though.

Shadelkan wrote: Also, I always loved that art for Crisis Suits DakkaHammer (talking about your profile pic).

Thanks, I managed to get it off the GW website before they took down all their cool background stories, artwork, and hobby stuff. Aah, the good 'ol days.

Hey I started this argument a while back... and I lost. It comes down to the power weapon portion. A big choppa isn't bad, in fact its great but you've got to have a power klaw in a unit if you want to win combats. A big choppas good but a power klaw is better.

I mean, I don't doubt the a PK has it's great uses, but in the matches that are usually held (1500 pts) usually I see regular infantry around, str 6 pops most opponents I fight, and my Warboss takes care of anything tougher
Just seems like too many times a PK is overrated .___.

Without a pk you have absolutely no hope against AV 14 rokkits can only glance and the SAG is to unreliable albeit hilairious

Warboss Gideon wrote:Just seems like too many times a PK is overrated

But why is that an argument for a choppa?

As others have mentioned, a choppa only makes a boyz mob only a little bit better at what it is already good at, but it doesn't really do anything else. Meanwhile, the klaw also makes the mob a little better at what it's already good at, but it also makes the squad able to handle SO many more other types of targets, that the versatility alone is easily worth the points expenditure.

Seriously, it's only going to take a 30-boy slugga mob without a klaw getting into close combat with a dreadnought once for you to see the usefulness of a power klaw.

What Crimson-King said.

Also, against other units its denying the armor save you're after. With a big choppa even tac marines are shrugging off 2/3 of your hits BEFORE to wound rolls, the PK insta-gibs them on hit.

Warboss Gideon wrote:I mean, I don't doubt the a PK has it's great uses, but in the matches that are usually held (1500 pts) usually I see regular infantry around, str 6 pops most opponents I fight, and my Warboss takes care of anything tougher
Just seems like too many times a PK is overrated .___.

Just put your warboss and five marines on the table and have them fight twice, once with big choppa and once with powerklaw. You'll see the difference.

This can be translated to a mob of boyz as well. Boyz get a gakload of attacks and have decent strength on the charge. Problem is, your run of the mill marine will still save two thirds of any wounds you cause, making your four attacks pretty much even out against the one attack the marines have. And then you're stuck in combat, with less attacks, wounding on 5+. You are going to lose a lot of orks - against puny tactical marines. The big choppa changes nothing about this, the powerklaw does. The klaw takes down 2-3 marines all by itself, where the big choppa manages one or two. Or none, if you get a bit unlucky (which is not unlikely).
The powerklaw is the tiebraker for any ork unit in kombat. Where any fight would depend on luck before, the powerklaw makes it an ork win. It would do so even if it were a powerweapon without stength bonus, but orks don't get that option.

The Big Choppa is a good and solid piece of wargear. It makes nobs str6, and Warbosses str7) - and for 5pts, which is really great!

But for an additional cost 20tps and always-hit-last, you're getting something that doubles strength and ignores armour.

It's quite expensive when one looks at it, but you're also paying for knowledge that one model is going to die when the scrap gets going, and knowledge that if you manage to hit a vehicle, you have a considerably better chance to penetrate it. Considering how the surrounding mechanics of Orks function, the Powerklaw creates a much more reliable, or effective synergy. That powerful sting hidden within a mass of butter.

With leader units (Nobs on mobz, and warbosses), you want that sting. Past that, you will be able to find room for the Big Choppa - I enjoy putting them into Nob squads. They do get undue criticism, they are fantastic pieces of wargear - but they have lower priority to a Powerklaw.

a healthy mix is great. a 10 man squad of nobs with 3 powerklaws, and 6 big choppas + painboy + assoted ranged weapons / boss poles, banners, grots etc makes a pretty scary unit. yea the choppas are mediocre vrs infantry, they really shine when attacking vehicles. but you need those klaws for dealing with dreads or inflicting power weapon wounds vrs infantry. plus they are pretty much gold vrs vehicles, whereas the big choppas are at best str 7 on the charge.

how else do you kill vehicles and ignore a 2+ save?

Most reliable piece of tankbusting kit

I completely agree with the arguement on power klaws. As an IG player I know no matter what happens I can save 1/3 of those non powered attacks. Not so much with the PK nob. There has been a few time I would have won combat if not for the nob. Which is bad for you orks being fearless and having a 6+ save.

Crimson-King2120 wrote:Most reliable piece of tankbusting kit

No, no its not.





But I agree with the rest, you need the PK as an ork player, Plain and simple. Also, you might want to stick your boss in a different unit, and let the Nobz run on their own, itll give you more powerful assaults in the end.

Pk nobz are the sole reason your 30 boyz don't lose as many to combat resolution as well... 9 out of 10 times the klaw does more damage than the boyz if your mob gets charged in my experience

I completely agree on the boyz' nob having a pk, and the warboos always has a pk, but it just seems like in mobs of nobz, seems a bit useless, but the balance of them makes sense, not all of them need to have it, but I can see why some of them would

Warboss Gideon wrote:So, I've been trying to perfect my army list, so when the next tournament comes by, I can actually win! (finally)
And i've been thinking that pks really aren't worth it when it comes to Nobz, why not just use big choppas? they save you 20 pts, and you only loose 2 ST, which when fighting most things doesn't really matter .__.
your thoughts? am I wrong, or am I finally on to something?

Because your nobs are generally going to go last anyway -- or at best at the same time. Going at the same time as MEQ does not buy you anything, as the MEQ can still do the damage to the Nobs squad.

Why not just go a little later and have your hits ignore power armor and hit at STR 9 on the assault?

I don't want to tell you that your just wrong -- instead think of the logic of why a PK is a much better weapon. Why would one ever want a big choppa over one?

labmouse42 wrote:

Warboss Gideon wrote:So, I've been trying to perfect my army list, so when the next tournament comes by, I can actually win! (finally)
And i've been thinking that pks really aren't worth it when it comes to Nobz, why not just use big choppas? they save you 20 pts, and you only loose 2 ST, which when fighting most things doesn't really matter .__.
your thoughts? am I wrong, or am I finally on to something?

Because your nobs are generally going to go last anyway -- or at best at the same time. Going at the same time as MEQ does not buy you anything, as the MEQ can still do the damage to the Nobs squad.

Why not just go a little later and have your hits ignore power armor and hit at STR 9 on the assault?

I don't want to tell you that your just wrong -- instead think of the logic of why a PK is a much better weapon. Why would one ever want a big choppa over one?

Not exactly. With Furious Charge, nobs will be hitting at the same time as I4 - which helps in that no attacks are lost from dead models.

But in general, yes, your "leader" of the unit should have the PK, BC's are best as support.

Kharrak wrote:Not exactly. With Furious Charge, nobs will be hitting at the same time as I4 - which helps in that no attacks are lost from dead models.

Would you not need to do enough wounds to the squad to ensure that allocation must happen to the nob?

Are you referring to a situation where a nob with 6 boys assaults a squad of 10 MEQ, and the MEQ deliver enough wounds to allocate 2 wounds on the nob, killing him?

Hes talking about Nobz mobs, not boyz mobs. In that, hes referring to non PK nobz, going in the same initiative order as a Space Marine. Meaning that those nobz, even if killed in an assault, their attacks would count because of the initiative order being the same

KingCracker wrote:Hes talking about Nobz mobs, not boyz mobs. In that, hes referring to non PK nobz, going in the same initiative order as a Space Marine. Meaning that those nobz, even if killed in an assault, their attacks would count because of the initiative order being the same

Ah yes. In a squad of nobs I would agree that.

I was speaking of a Nob in a unit of boys, thus the misunderstanding.

I figured as much. The way I see it, as far as boyz mob nobz go, once the wounds start to affect the nob, the unit is already in the can, so dont worry about it. Its either an ignore them situation, or throw more units at the problem

nobs units are imho best done with 10 guys, 1 painboy, 3 powerklaws, and the rest have big choppas. you get attack at I4 on the charge, and a bunch of klaws to mash things up if anything is left. plus the unit is great on hitting tanks, and thanks to the klaws can handle dreads as well.

Ya in nobs squads take bc and alot of them, as long as you have a couple klaws. In the op it seemed like you were talking about any nobs including leading boys mobs.

DarthSpader wrote:nobs units are imho best done with 10 guys, 1 painboy, 3 powerklaws, and the rest have big choppas. you get attack at I4 on the charge, and a bunch of klaws to mash things up if anything is left. plus the unit is great on hitting tanks, and thanks to the klaws can handle dreads as well.

A unit with just seven nob will do exactly the same. So why waste 75-100 points on the extra models?

Math (important):

Big Choppa against MEQ: 4 attacks on the charge, .5*.83*.33*4 = .55 unsaved wounds avg

Power Klaw against MEQ: 4 attacks on the charge, .5*.83*4 = 1.66 unsaved wounds avg

e.g. the PK puts out 3 times as many wounds avg against MEQs (as the armor save would suggest). It will still put out a whopping twice as many unsaved wounds against models with a 4+ save. Anything with an initiative higher than 4, the Big Choppas' initiative 4 will be irrelevant, and it will only strike at the same initiative value against MEQs, making the init 4 neither useful for denying attacks nor for guaranteeing yours (the boyz serve as ablative wounds, or as one user put it, a "delivery mechanism for the PK").

That in addition to the fact that the PK will add +1 to your chance to wound MCs (and ignore their armor save), +2 to your chance to pierce armor, and allow you to pierce high AVs that the Big Choppa cannot.

A Nob with a Big Choppa costs you 6+10+5 points, or 21 points. A Nob with a Power Klaw costs you 6+10+25 points, or 41 points. That's not even twice the points and it puts out 3 times as many unsaved wounds against MEQs. That alone should make them worth the cost.

Oh, I also forgot, with the PK, you can instant death any IC with T4. How's that grab you?

I like knowing that I can ID a Chaos lord or a SM Captain with a 25pt upgrade. Makes me a happy camper all day long