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Hi Dakka,

this past weekend i had my first game againt my lil' bro with my new DE army and to cut a long story short i was ground into dust. He was playing a foot slogging list of 2 giant mobs of shoota boys and 2 of slugga boys backed up with 2 mobs of 11 lootas, 3 killa cans, 2 Dreds and a battlewagon full of ardboys and his warboss.
My list was not really optimised to be honest;
2 units of blaster/Splinter cannon warriors and 1 unit of wyches all with agoniser/;blast pistol in raiders
2 dark lance ravagers
4 incubi and huskblade/soultrap archon in a venom
10 hellions plus agoniser Helliarch
9 Reavers with 3 heat lances and 3 cluster caltrops
Talos with chain flails, extra cc weapon and stinger pods
5 Scourges with 2 haywire blasters and agoniser solarite

turn 1 i set myself up with everything in cover then turn 2 i burst forth ready to destroy him and was promptly crushed!!!
Please help, what are the best ways for DE to beat orks?!?!?!

Dark Eldar wins this match nearly every time if you don't have things like:
10 hellions plus agoniser Helliarch
9 Reavers with 3 heat lances and 3 cluster caltrops
Talos with chain flails, extra cc weapon and stinger pods
5 Scourges with 2 haywire blasters and agoniser solarite
in your list and have more things like:
5 warriors with blaster in venom with extra splinter cannon x 4/6
10 wyches with hydra gauntlets and agonizer hekatrix in raider x 1/2

I don't see how your list could have beat foot slogging orks. Not enough assault or shooting to deal with it.

Step 1: Prioritize Lootas. Take them out, or kill enough for them to force leadership (you would need to kill 3). Their mass str7 firepower and long range is your greatest threat.

Step 2: prioritize the kanz. Higher BS, combined with Rokkits or Grotzookas are your next largest threat.

Then just stay out of reach, whittling down the mobs until you can force leadership. Your vehicles are fast enough to generally keep away from him, while you use your ranged firepower. Your Ravagers and Venoms can both move 12" and fire all their weapons (assuming you gave splinter cannons do your venoms).

The Reavers should be able to deal some serious wounds agaisnt the mobs, just be sure to end their movement far enough away that they are difficult to assault. They have a 24" flat out move, +6" move in the assault phase. Use that well, they should only be able to be targeted by ranged fire - and they will have their 3+ cover save. They should be killing about 10 per pass over.

The Hellions should be used to finish off weakened mobs - mathhammer shows they should kill an average of 13 boyz before the boyz get to strike back. Naturally this varies depending on what drug effect they are under. You could use this in conjunction with the Reavers to wipe out a unit.

The Talos should focus on killing vehicles - since boyz would be able to soak up the wounds, and then the nob can tear in and kill it. It should decimate any vehicles it runs into.

Scourges in general should either fire at the kanz, or the battlewagon, in hopes to slow down/prevent firing.

I see you only had one venom - that being the issue. Having about two more would have aided you in really tearing up the mobs.

---------------

In terms of best ways for DE to beat Orks...

As stated, of Lootas are present, they need to be taken care of. Kill enough to test leadership, hope it serves its purpouse. Direct Lance fire into them if needed, assault them in turn 2 - shut them down.

Preventing Kanz from firing is another good tactic. Their Grotzookas tear t3 units apart, and their Rokkits pose obvious danger.

SLOW THEM DOWN. Target Trukks, stun, or immobilize them. Target the Battlewagon, try to force an immobilization. Keep the Orks slow, and you can them up with your fire.

Only target weaker units with your melee units. You won't be able to take a fight with the bigger squads. Units of 15 and less are a good target, but be aware of the powerklaw inevitably hiding inside.

Whittle away the larger units with constant poison fire (or with reavers moving over them). Eventually they will be weak enough to move in for the kill, or to force leadership.

If you are going to be charged in your next turn, charge instead. Robbing the orks of the charge hurts them.

Anything that needs to be in CC, keep away from until it's dealt with.

Remember that Poison weapons count as Defensive weapons, so they can fire at full capacity if the vehicle did not go flat out. This means that your Venoms can move 12" and still fire 12 poison shots, if you bought it the second splinter cannon. This should aid you significantly in keeping out of the Ork reach.

I see what happened, you went (for lack of a better term) herp derp assault when you should have spread out and isolated his army. Orks excel in assault as you are well aware, you must whittle them down before going in for the kill.

In this situation you should have set up in a manner were the looters couldn't reach/see your guys, and then just waited for the orks to make a move. Then proceed to round around the slow orks, crush the lootas all the while lancing his wagon and keeping the orks on the run.

Thanks guys this will help a great deal

ravenwind1984 wrote:Hi Dakka,

this past weekend i had my first game againt my lil' bro with my new DE army and to cut a long story short i was ground into dust. He was playing a foot slogging list of 2 giant mobs of shoota boys and 2 of slugga boys backed up with 2 mobs of 11 lootas, 3 killa cans, 2 Dreds and a battlewagon full of ardboys and his warboss.
My list was not really optimised to be honest;
2 units of blaster/Splinter cannon warriors and 1 unit of wyches all with agoniser/;blast pistol in raiders
2 dark lance ravagers
4 incubi and huskblade/soultrap archon in a venom
10 hellions plus agoniser Helliarch
9 Reavers with 3 heat lances and 3 cluster caltrops
Talos with chain flails, extra cc weapon and stinger pods
5 Scourges with 2 haywire blasters and agoniser solarite

turn 1 i set myself up with everything in cover then turn 2 i burst forth ready to destroy him and was promptly crushed!!!
Please help, what are the best ways for DE to beat orks?!?!?!

splinter cannon warriros are ok, but better to have 5man suqads in venoms
dont take agonisers on warriors, total waste of points
dont take blast pistols, they are awful
dont take incubi against orcs, they are only really good against Meq.
dont take hellions, unless you have the baron they are awful, even with him they are just ok
Talos are again good at killing meq, a mob of orks will shred them with a PK. in any event dont take extra cc weapon
dont take scourges and if you do, definitly dont put agonizers or solitares on them.
I wouldnt take an archon vs orks, not enough ICs to make soultrap worthwhile

so basically you had 4 decent units. out of 11 you have basically 1/3 units that dont suck, of course you are going to lose.
The reavers are ok against orks, although you really have to know what you are doing to use them.
Ravagers arent that great against green tide but they can kill vehicles if there are any and run around killing 2 orks a turn(1 in cover) afterwards. Great to contest table quarters late.
The wyches in a raider are a good medium assault unit but they definitly wont take out a full mob of orks. They can however speedbump them or kill a weakened squad.

as stated...

i would loose the reavers and hellions. if you want FA go with beasts. they work pretty good with almost any build, and are a great team mate for wyches.

talos should swap for a 3rd ravager. slogging a slow talos up field is BEGGING for every single heavy weapon untill it dies. wich it will since it lacks an invun, and most AT weapons are AP 3 or lower.

as mentioned, blast pistols are useless... and soul traps almost as much. agonizers should really limited. i dont even take one on basic units. not even wyches. i might take one on a archon. anyway, to optimize for orc green tide lists:

4x 5 man warrior teams. 1 blaster, venom with 2 splinter cannons. - these units can move 6 and blaster +rifle + venom weapons. total of 20 splinter shots and a blaster. or move 12" and fire the venom, with an optinal disembark for the warriors to still fire. (although make sure they are in cover or otherwise screened and protected)

elites slots i usually take 3 units of blasterborn (4 with 4 blasters) these are awsome at baking terminators, nobs, anything with good armor and FNP. force them to invun or die, and negate that painboy. also good for vehicle popping. for greentide though, you might consider trueborn + duke. kit out with carbines and splinter cannons for 3+ to hit and 3+ to wound. number of guys and transport is your call. but one of those units can make orc infantry cry big time.

i would loose the scourges - your venoms and warriors do there job better for less.

loose the bikes. they are super expensive, and again venoms and warriors do the same job better and cheaper.

beasts are really super awsome. combined with the baron, they get pure win. and vrs orc infantry they should OWN.

your wych squads should be as minimal as possible. 9 guys with an attached haemey packing a liquifer gun. they can tie up anything from infantry to dreads, and do a great job. but since they are your tarpits and such, i would keep them as cheap as possible. the special weapons dont really do it for me tbh, but hydra gauntlets seem the best against orcs.

ravagers are just awsome. more of these is good. however to optimize for orcs... maybe consider a jetfighter. with stock missiles, and a flicker field it can REALLY put out a decent hurt on a big mob with 4 large blasts, plus some lance fire. after that, its still decent with 2 lances. its also one of 2 vehicles that arent open topped.

as i said above, talos is kind of a fail by himself, and no way of getting close. you need a WWP and 2 or 3 of them to really make a impact. that said, i have seen 3 pop out of wwp and absoultly DESTROY the enemy lines. much better then just slogging a single one up the middle to be shot my lootas or rokkits, then charged and ganked by hidden nob powerklaws.

basicly your biggest asset is your speed, and your ability to ignore his toughness. zip around and pelt him with splinter fire, then charge the weaker units with wyches and beasts to finish them off. the other great thing, is if he starts packing trukks and battlewagons, your blasters and lances will eat them for breakfast as well.

the orc biggest strength is numbers, and tons of attacks. if you remove the numbers from the game, by running and sniping "kiting" him along, then youve negated 50% of his armies strength. negate the attacks factor by presenting a ton of targets. if i recall most orc ranged weapons are 18-24" aside from rokkits and big shootas. with your 36" range... you should be able to avoid him pretty easy. send a squad of wyches to assault his lootas and splinter everything else into submission.

good luck