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The new model is out, it looks great, but it's about to open a can of worms.





Looking at the size of the base and the size of the model it looks like the model is much larger than the base, possibly 1" or greater in radius than the base. The overhang is huge. The problem is if the model's radius is greater than 1" than the base's radius then will be impossible the maintain a 2" unit coherency between bases. If that is the case it raises several questions. Some seem very easy and obvious to me, others rather complicated.

#1: Is unit coherency then measured from furthest point of the model to closest point of the nearest model in the squad?

#2 Can friendly units (like scarabs) be placed underneath the spyder's body?

#3 What happens when it is impossible for a spyder to make base contact with another model due to the spider's large overhang? Examples being spyders charging sypders or a land raider.

#4 When measuring distance to a spyder and the distance to the model is closer than the distance to the base which distance is used?

#5 The spyder is longer than it is wide. Can the spyder pivot in the same way as a DE raider to gain additional movement?

#6 Can enemy units end their turn less than 1" from the spyder's body if they remain 1" from the sypder's base?

#7 Can part of the spyder's body hang over the edge of the table? Might be a big issue in DOW if the spyder is >6" long...

#8 Do MC have a 360 degree LOS and firing arc in the shooting phase? Also might be a big issue given the size of the spyder

#9 Should old school spyders still get a cover save if a new official new spyder model would not be 50% obscured in the same situation?

#10 If a strict raw=coherency must be 2" from bases only, and it's physically impossible to place 2 official GW models within 2" of each other's bases does the physical impossibility of 2 spyders ever being in coherency mean anything?

Most of the questions can be handled by:
A models is counted as occupying the area of it's base. See threads about eldar jetbikes, koptaz or other units hanging off their bases. Only skimmers get to ignore their base.

#3 Wobbly Model Syndrome

#8 Yes, like all infantry models.

#9 No rule on this one. Make sure to talk about this with your opponent/TO before the game.

#10 I don't think this will be an issue. 2" is a lot of space.

2" in a lot of space, but that only comes to 1" per model.

Not an issue for eldar jetbikes



Or ork deffkoptas



Overhand on both of them is minimal, and usually in only 1 direction. Take a 2nd look a the spyder, and ask if that's 1" of overhand in every direction...



1.1" + 1.1"=2.2"=out of coherency. If the smallest amount of overhang=1.1"question #10 will be a difficult reality. If the smallest amount of overhand=0.9" coherency will be possible, but still difficult.

Going to add a question #11. Is it OK to pull 2 out of 3 models off their bases and play with only the bases for the rest of the game due to wobbly model syndrome? I fear many games may degenerate into that if no FAQ comes out and the game is played with the same RAW that is applied to eldar jetbikes.

Judging from the pictures, I estimate the model's length at 3-4" at best, with the only part possibly hanging over more than 1" being its big butt.

schadenfreude wrote:#1: Is unit coherency then measured from furthest point of the model to closest point of the nearest model in the squad?

Measured from the base. I think you'd only run into coherency problems if you don't tilt either of the Spyders and had them back to back.

schadenfreude wrote:#2 Can friendly units (like scarabs) be placed underneath the spyder's body?

Yes.

schadenfreude wrote:#3 What happens when it is impossible for a spyder to make base contact with another model due to the spider's large overhang? Examples being spyders charging sypders or a land raider.

Same thing you do with every model with overhang, try to get it in base contact as best as possible. I think that if you tilt the Spyder backwards you can get them pretty close. This isn't really a new problem, if you've ever played Tyranids, most of the units can't get into close combat neatly due to all the wildly flailing arms on Genestealers and Hormagaunts and such.

schadenfreude wrote:#4 When measuring distance to a spyder and the distance to the model is closer than the distance to the base which distance is used?
#5 The spyder is longer than it is wide. Can the spyder pivot in the same way as a DE raider to gain additional movement?
#6 Can enemy units end their turn less than 1" from the spyder's body if they remain 1" from the sypder's base?

Always measure from the base for range, movement, etc.

schadenfreude wrote:#7 Can part of the spyder's body hang over the edge of the table? Might be a big issue in DOW if the spyder is >6" long...

Seeing that as the oval base the Tyrannofex/Tervigon is on is only 4.7" long, I doubt you'll run into trouble with this much smaller kit.

schadenfreude wrote:#8 Do MC have a 360 degree LOS and firing arc in the shooting phase? Also might be a big issue given the size of the spyder

Yes, but again, you always measure from the base.

schadenfreude wrote:#9 Should old school spyders still get a cover save if a new official new spyder model would not be 50% obscured in the same situation?

Technically no, the bigger model would have a harder time claiming cover saves.

schadenfreude wrote:#10 If a strict raw=coherency must be 2" from bases only, and it's physically impossible to place 2 official GW models within 2" of each other's bases does the physical impossibility of 2 spyders ever being in coherency mean anything?

See previous points.

It's a large kit on a relatively small flying base. I think it will have problems if the spyder is tilted or off centered.

It just seems like a dumb idea to release squads of MC that clock in a just under $100 that are too large of a model to effectively move as a squad on the tabletop. The only thing I can think of is maybe squad coherency for squads of MC is going to be 4" in 6th edition.

Anyhow let's make this thread really interesting and have everybody take a guess to the spyder's size before the model comes out. I think the base is 60mm.

I'm going to guess the sypder is 140mm long by 110mm wide

I think you're seriously overestimating the model's size. This is only a £20 kit, and even the £35 Tervigon kit is isn't that big. Take a £28 Dreadnought box to get the idea of how little plastic is used in the Spyder; it has an 5 man infantry box sized sprue at best.

Judging from the width of the flight pillar, I'd guess the base is around 40mm, with the model itself being around 60-75mm long.

Id be surprised if the base was larger than 40mm.

Maybe they used the small flying base for photo purposes. The real kit will probably have the large flying base.

Why should it? The spider is definitely smaller than eldar tanks.

The eldar tanks come on a large flying base (I don't mean the flyer base of course). At least mine did. The base on the photo looks like the old small flying base the eldar jetbikes used to have.

Here's a scale reference with a Dark Eldar Reaver, which I think use the same base.

MC units have a larger coherency don't they? 4 inches from memory but I'm away from my rulebook ATM.

rigeld2 wrote:MC units have a larger coherency don't they? 4 inches from memory but I'm away from my rulebook ATM.

You're thinking of vehicle squadrons.

I am sure 4" is for squadrons. For MCs I don't think so.

copper.talos wrote:Maybe they used the small flying base for photo purposes. The real kit will probably have the large flying base.

^This!

Keep in mind, the part in the photos that says it's for "illustrative purposes only and package contents may vary" and the like. Now yes, I get that that is standard mumbo-jumbo on stuff like this, but it does leave open the possibility that spiders will (most likely) be on bases the same as the destroyers (or the old spiders if you want that comparison instead).

#1: Is unit coherency then measured from furthest point of the model to closest point of the nearest model in the squad?
2" from the model. Use the model. But as always ask your opponent before game starts.

#2 Can friendly units (like scarabs) be placed underneath the spyder's body?
Just because something is flying based doesn't really mean anything. You could have it flying 5 feet in the air it is still occupying all 5' to the table.

#3 What happens when it is impossible for a spyder to make base contact with another model due to the spider's large overhang? Examples being spyders charging sypders or a land raider.
Use the model. But as always ask your opponent before game starts.

#4 When measuring distance to a spyder and the distance to the model is closer than the distance to the base which distance is used?
Use the model. But as always ask your opponent before game starts.

#5 The spyder is longer than it is wide. Can the spyder pivot in the same way as a DE raider to gain additional movement?
If you can do it do it. The rules are there if something comes out that is exploitable can't prevent it.

#6 Can enemy units end their turn less than 1" from the spyder's body if they remain 1" from the sypder's base?
Use the model. But as always ask your opponent before game starts.

#7 Can part of the spyder's body hang over the edge of the table? Might be a big issue in DOW if the spyder is >6" long...
Use the model. But as always ask your opponent before game starts.

#8 Do MC have a 360 degree LOS and firing arc in the shooting phase? Also might be a big issue given the size of the spyder
40k doesn't have the issue of things firing out of its ass. Firing from the front or firing into the back of a unit doens't matter unless its a tank.

#9 Should old school spyders still get a cover save if a new official new spyder model would not be 50% obscured in the same situation?
With redesigns that is the reason you could buy a new one. The answer is simple. No. If someone put a scarab on a base that is 5" tall it doesn't mean it gets cover because normally it isn't 5" tall. If you want to get cover that way make your model that way.

#10 If a strict raw=coherency must be 2" from bases only, and it's physically impossible to place 2 official GW models within 2" of each other's bases does the physical impossibility of 2 spyders ever being in coherency mean anything?
No. Use the model. But as always ask your opponent before game starts.

I guess the question is if the flying base in the spyder kit is the 25mm base used on gargoyles or reaver jetbikes, or the 60mm flying base used on eldar jetbikes.

If it's a 25mm base the spyder is actually unchanged in size and there is nothing to worry about unless they are deep striking.

If it's a 60mm base then the spyder from a previous size comparison photo needs to be increased in size by 240%



So 25mm=no problem. 60mm base=a serious issue

Smolo82 wrote:
#1: Is unit coherency then measured from furthest point of the model to closest point of the nearest model in the squad?
2" from the model. Use the model. But as always ask your opponent before game starts.

This is wrong. Look at the example on page 12.

#2 Can friendly units (like scarabs) be placed underneath the spyder's body?
Just because something is flying based doesn't really mean anything. You could have it flying 5 feet in the air it is still occupying all 5' to the table.

This is so wrong. He's not talking about it overlapping the base, He's talking about it being under the overhang. That is perfectly legal.

#3 What happens when it is impossible for a spyder to make base contact with another model due to the spider's large overhang? Examples being spyders charging sypders or a land raider.
Use the model. But as always ask your opponent before game starts.

Wrong again. Assaults are done base to base. P34

#4 When measuring distance to a spyder and the distance to the model is closer than the distance to the base which distance is used?
Use the model. But as always ask your opponent before game starts.

You're not doing too well right now. All measurements for infantry models are done from the base.

#5 The spyder is longer than it is wide. Can the spyder pivot in the same way as a DE raider to gain additional movement?
If you can do it do it. The rules are there if something comes out that is exploitable can't prevent it.

No. Movement is measured from the base.

#6 Can enemy units end their turn less than 1" from the spyder's body if they remain 1" from the sypder's base?
Use the model. But as always ask your opponent before game starts.

All measurements for infantry models are done from the base.

#7 Can part of the spyder's body hang over the edge of the table? Might be a big issue in DOW if the spyder is >6" long...
Use the model. But as always ask your opponent before game starts.

All measurements for infantry models are done from the base.

#8 Do MC have a 360 degree LOS and firing arc in the shooting phase? Also might be a big issue given the size of the spyder
40k doesn't have the issue of things firing out of its ass. Firing from the front or firing into the back of a unit doens't matter unless its a tank.

You got one!

#9 Should old school spyders still get a cover save if a new official new spyder model would not be 50% obscured in the same situation?
With redesigns that is the reason you could buy a new one. The answer is simple. No. If someone put a scarab on a base that is 5" tall it doesn't mean it gets cover because normally it isn't 5" tall. If you want to get cover that way make your model that way.

Convoluted, but essentially correct. Also, modelling specifically for advantage is prohibited.

#10 If a strict raw=coherency must be 2" from bases only, and it's physically impossible to place 2 official GW models within 2" of each other's bases does the physical impossibility of 2 spyders ever being in coherency mean anything?
No. Use the model. But as always ask your opponent before game starts.

This is wrong. Look at the example on page 12.

schadenfreude wrote:I guess the question is if the flying base in the spyder kit is the 25mm base used on gargoyles or reaver jetbikes, or the 60mm flying base used on eldar jetbikes.

If it's a 25mm base the spyder is actually unchanged in size and there is nothing to worry about unless they are deep striking.

If it's a 60mm base then the spyder from a previous size comparison photo needs to be increased in size by 240%



So 25mm=no problem. 60mm base=a serious issue

Suddenly that price-tag doesn't seem quite so bad...

The cylinder/disk proportion of the base indicates that it is the small flying base.

It could easily come with the large flying base. It wouldn't be the first time GW misbased a model before.

copper.talos wrote:The cylinder/disk proportion of the base indicates that it is the small flying base.

Aye, the stalk width is pretty close in size between the large and small flying base, so the base in the picture certainly isn't the large flying base.
Check out the 360 of the Command Barge to see a large flying base to compare.

It's size is actually a disadvantage in movement and here's why.

Lets say you've moved your spyder across the battlefield and are ready to launch an attack. Your opponent has two units you want to charge in subsequent turns and you now you'll kill the first unit easily.

To measure an assault you measure base to base. So lets say you're exactly 6" from the spyder base to the closest base of your opponent. Your charge is successful however your spyder overhangs the base by about half an inch. So you move the model so its touching the enemy model and the base is about a quarter to a half inch further away. (you can't actually make base to base contact because of the model overhang).

Now if you win combat, you have lost the overhang distance toward the next enemy unit; about a quarter to a half an inch. Not that it matters much, but the disadvantage is there.

Nemesor Dave wrote:It's size is actually a disadvantage in movement and here's why.

Lets say you've moved your spyder across the battlefield and are ready to launch an attack. Your opponent has two units you want to charge in subsequent turns and you now you'll kill the first unit easily.

To measure an assault you measure base to base. So lets say you're exactly 6" from the spyder base to the closest base of your opponent. Your charge is successful however your spyder overhangs the base by about half an inch. So you move the model so its touching the enemy model and the base is about a quarter to a half inch further away. (you can't actually make base to base contact because of the model overhang).

Now if you win combat, you have lost the overhang distance toward the next enemy unit; about a quarter to a half an inch. Not that it matters much, but the disadvantage is there.

You can just turn your model so that you make maximum contact. Same thing happens with genestealers all the time. Chances are there is some angle where the overhang works with the model you are assaulting. If not, then that would be a slight disadvantage. You could always pull the model from the base for the combat as well, I guess.

Just something that might be useful: Ive already got the WD, and the spyders are both on the small and the large bases. Green/black scheme on small bases, turquoise/gold on large bases. Overhang doesnt seem to be too much of a roblem with the large ones, especialy since the model can be tilted backwards (new stand, so ball joint. Its visible in one of the pics).

So yeah, shouldnt be a problem.