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I was having this discution the other day as to if adding one fire point to a wave serpant would have broken them. I don't think it would, the only thing I cna see happening if a firepike equiped fire dragon exarch being taken more often, but the things cost so many points would the one firepoint be to powerful? i mean you'd have to choose what to fire assuming you went 12 inches. seems to me like with all their tech the eldar would think to add a hatch to fire from

1) Doesn't make sense backstory-wise; the Wave Serpent is a sealed environment capable of handing high altitudes and high speeds, you don't want to be whacking on the environmental seals with an extra potential point of failure.

2) It isn't really necessary gameplay-wise; if you're close enough to be meltagun-sniping out the top hatch, you're close enough to disembark and take the same shot; as far as heavy weapons go, you might as well just be out of the Wave Serpent in the first place. With a Firepike Exarch, you save your Fire Dragons one turn of being shot at (which won't do a whole lot more to them out of the tank than it would in the tank, considering the amount of fire people like to dump onto Fire Dragons), at the expense of reducing their chance of completely destroying an AV 14 vehicle from 85% (with an Exarch with Tank Hunters and five Fire Dragons) to 32% (with an Exarch with Tank Hunters and a Firepike), both assuming in melta range.

3) It would look silly. The Eldar aesthetic is very different from Orks or the Imperium, you can't just bolt extra bits on here or there, you need to preserve the clean lines of the model. Where would you put this fire point, anyway?

Basically what Anomander said; it doesnt make sense fluff wise and isn't needed game-wise.
Amongst other things, the Waveserpent is fine as it is. Maybe 5-10pts overcosted.

1) i do see your point

2) gameplay wise i always have a hard time using my fire dragons everything on the board always targets them first, my issue is getting them close enough to their trget for the next turn disembark usually results in being blown to bits and explotion on a T3 model doesn't end well

3) not sure where to put it, that is a valid point to, perhaps a point on top of the gun turret up top?

was more thinking why shouldn't it have one ifrom a game play aspect its one of the only dedicated transports without one

@ dave yea I agree mostly i was thinking as a cost balance but if they dropped to 75-80 points each base I'd be happy as is

2) Gameplay-wise nothing in the Eldar list (except for the tanks) can really take a punch; the trick with Fire Dragons is using their transport's speed to pick off stragglers and isolated units where the enemy can't necessarily focus a big counter-punch easily.

And the Wave Serpent is one of the only Fast Skimmer dedicated transports, and one of the most heavily-armed/armored, and one of the largest-capacity. It doesn't need a fire point when you factor in all the other toys it gets.

If anything, the only fire point-type thing it could require is some form of psychic conduit, which allows a Psyker embarked onto it to use psychic shooting attacks as if the vehicle had a fire point.

Right now, the shooting attacks Eldar have are next to useless outside of circumstances which rarely occur, and cost too much to take 'just in case'.

BTW, if you move faster than combat speed, then you can't shoot whether there is a fire point or not.

I think firepoints are dumb. Other than the chimera which should allow 6 lasguns to be fired no other transport should allow anyone to shot any weapon out.

Missle Pillbox Rhinos are dumb

Exergy wrote:I think firepoints are dumb. Other than the chimera which should allow 6 lasguns to be fired no other transport should allow anyone to shot any weapon out.

Missle Pillbox Rhinos are dumb

And by 6 lasguns you mean 3 plasma/melta guns right?

G00fySmiley wrote:@ dave yea I agree mostly i was thinking as a cost balance but if they dropped to 75-80 points each base I'd be happy as is

I disagree.

Look at the Razorback, fairly priced at 40pts.
Lets be conservative regarding the value of what the advantages cost. Assuming it's 5pts each:
+3 AV's: 15pts.
+6 Transport Capacity: 5pts
+Skimmer: 5pts
+Fast: 5pts
+Holofield: 5pts

So, with being generous, that's a value of 75pts. Then, lets be fair, Fast and Holofield and the increased armour value are all worth more than 5pts; just look at what the BA's pay for their rhinos for the advantage of fast.
I think, with Shuriken Cannon included - or even not - 90pts is a very fair cost.

Just Dave wrote:

G00fySmiley wrote:@ dave yea I agree mostly i was thinking as a cost balance but if they dropped to 75-80 points each base I'd be happy as is

I disagree.

Look at the Razorback, fairly priced at 40pts.
Lets be conservative regarding the value of what the advantages cost. Assuming it's 5pts each:
+3 AV's: 15pts.
+6 Transport Capacity: 5pts
+Skimmer: 5pts
+Fast: 5pts
+Holofield: 5pts

So, with being generous, that's a value of 75pts. Then, lets be fair, Fast and Holofield and the increased armour value are all worth more than 5pts; just look at what the BA's pay for their rhinos for the advantage of fast.
I think, with Shuriken Cannon included - or even not - 90pts is a very fair cost.

or consider a raider 60pts
+6AV's 30pts
energy field 5pts
+2 Transport capacity... 0pts
not open topped...5pts
now a BS4 DL is far better than a BS3 TL shurken cannon but how much? Against most things its a missile launcher. -10pts
gets to 90 with my basic assumptions. 10pts less than stock, not 25pts less

The problem with Wave Serpents for me is the cost of the upgraded weapons. its like +35 for twin linked bright lance or something crazy talk.

There are many things a Wave Serpent need, could need, or would be neat if it had, but I don't agree a fire point is one of them.

What Exergy wrote regarding fire points is very valid. Handling any sort of Gets Hot! weapon inside an enclosed environment should be suicide for all models inside and possibly the vehicle as well. Shooting a heavy weapon, especially a recoil-less weapon such as a missile launcher, is just silly. Melta guns... sounds iffy, too.

Regarding the raider, why not compare it to the Wave Serpent with the exact copy of the Raider's weapon? We do know, however, that the Bright Lance is stupidly overpriced, but hey - it's exactly the same stats and BS4 is only marginally worse than BS3TL (actually better if you take the presence of Guide into account).

The fire point isnt needed- the tank is too broken anyway compared to an equivalent razorback anyway.

Lightning Shadows wrote:The fire point isnt needed- the tank is too broken anyway compared to an equivalent razorback anyway.

how is it broken, its alot of points 90 for the wave serpant before any weapons or upgrades, the spirit stones are at the right point value at 10 same function and cost as armor plates for other armies, the vectored engines are nice but situational at 20 they are not worth it, if they were 10sh they'd be worth considering, ballistic skill is less than a razerback, only BS3 vs BS 4, and I'd prefer a lascannon to a bright lance, counting as str 8 instead of 9 when there are so few av14 things out there, and av13 comes out in the wash.

also for the comparison before it is 12-12-10 vs 11-11-10 so unless you are counting each "side armour" as one extra value which i don't then its only +2 armour

don't get me wrong I like the wave serpant i just think they should add somethingn or drop cost a bit

as is for tl missles, stones and serpant only you are looking at 130 points, max it out with upgrades lance and shurican cannon you're at 190 points thats approaching land raider territory and i don't think naybody is going to argue wave serpant being worth more than a land raider in any form.