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2012/04/28 17:49:56
Subject: Fixing Grey Knights, hopefully. Version 1.3 now up.
So, um, wrote a document containing propsed rules changes for GK. Hopefully it will be balancing them. Word Proccessor Document attached. Enjoy.
It apparently doesn't work so I have replaced with just text
Version 1.0
Spoiler:
This is my attempt at fixing Grey Knights. I will be working my way through the army list, followed by wargear. If I don’t change things it will be absent. The things I do change will be note as “Unit A- Costs X points instead of Y.” Most of the changes will be negative for them but some may be positive.
So, let’s get started
Lord Kaldor Draigo- Lord of Titan allows 1 Paladin unit to be taken as troops. Change BS from 6 to 5 (see Grand Master). . Grand Strategy cannot be used on Walkers anymore
Grand master Mordrak-Add Independent Character. BS changed from 6, to 5. Grand Strategy cannot be used on Walkers anymore.
Ghost Knights-Remove Krak Grenades and Frags. Add Unyielding Spectres rule. This allows them to ignore terrain when moving, running, charging or falling back. Change cost to 50pts per model.
Castellan Crowe-Change Keeper of Antwyr to allow only a single Purifier unit to be troops.
Grand master-Remove Psykotroke Grenades and Empyrean Brain Mines. Reduce BS to 5. There is no justification for them to be BS 6. Grand Strategy cannot be used on Walkers anymore. Can take Holocaust for +10pts. Represents time as a Paladin
Brother Captain-Remove Empyrean Brain mines and Psykotrokes. Can take Holocaust for +10pts (see Grand master).
Brotherhood Champion-Remove Diital Weapons. They are useless on him! What the hell were they doing there to start with? Also, remove Brain Mines.
Librarian-Hammerhand no longer applies before strength modifiers like Hammers. This is basic mathematics. Other than that, no change.
Inquisotr Valeria-Frag and Krak Grenades. An Inquisitor can’t afford this basic gear?
Techmarines-Gets Nemesis Force Sword for free, instead of Power Sword. Loses Brain Mines and Psykotrokes.
Purifiers-30pts per model. They are cheaper than Sternguard? Base Cost for squad =150pts. Halberds cost 5ppm. Psycannons are 20ppm, Psilincers free, Incinerators are 10ppm, as theyn help with the role of Horde slaying.
Venerable Draednought-Psybolt and Psyflame costs 10ppm instead of 5.
Paladins-Cost 60ppm.
Callidus Assassin-Can assault after Deep Strike. Vindicare-Shieldbreaker changed to “If an invulnerable save granted by Wargear or Biomorphs is taken against a shield breaker AND FAILED, only that save is lost for the rest of the game.” Turbo Penetrator reduced to 2D6+3 with rending. Hellfire changed to Poisoned 2+, to keep in line with other hellfire rounds.
Henchman Servitors Mindlock can be negated by Techmarines. If one of the named Inquisitors is within 6” can reroll Mindlock Warrior Acolytes Bolters cost 3ppm, Stormbolters and Hotshots 5ppm. May exchange Laspistol and Chainsword for Lasgun for free. Lose options for power Fists and storm shield. Any can take combat shield for +5ppm.
Terminators-Lose Frag and Krqaks as standard. Must pay 5ppm for them, but get both for 5ppm. Having them the same price as Terminators without these is appalling.
Justicar Thawn-Clarification If he is still part of the squad he counts as their Justicar in all respects. He is Mastery Level 1 as per Brotherhood of Psykers and Loses Fearless. These apply until he dies and is resurrected.
Strike Squad-Warp Quiake Changed to “Automatic Dangerous Terrain Test,” instead of mishap. However, each model landing in terrain of any sort other than clear will take a mishap. Psycannon costs 20ppm and Incinerators cost 10 (they swap the costs).
Intercepor Squad-Warp Quake change as per Strike Squad.
Purgators- Psilincer costs 20pts (they shouldn’t move much so this is the most beneficial to their design) and psycannons cost 10pts. Incinerators free. Dreadnought-Same as Vendread.
Nemesis Dreadknights-Cost 150 base. Doomfists double its strength. Can take the same gun twice. In this case it doubles the number of shots. The Heavy Incinerator second shot can be in a different position to the first. Cannot take Personal Teleporter, but when Deep Striking is affected by Teleport Homers. The reason for this is that the Teleport Homer affects Terminator Armour which he is wearing. The Personal Teleporter may not be taklen as it “cannot be used on the bulky Terminator Armour.” So how does it affect the MASSIVE walker thing?
Land Raiders- Cost +5pts (260 for the Godhammer and Crusader, 250 for the Redeemer.) Fortitude really helps them too much.
WARGEAR.
Daemonbane-Only affects DAEMONS. Duh.
Add Lasgun for Warrior Acolyte purposes.
Needle Pistol- Becomes Str 1, Poisoned 2+.
Empyrean Brain Mines and Psykotroke Grenades-Remove. These are not needed, are much hated by opponents and just stupid.
Brotherhood Banners- Allows unit to reroll Psychic Tests (even successful ones) instead of autopass the NFW. Must abide by the second and Perils do not carry over.
Plasma Syphon- Wielder has a 3++ save against plasma weaponry. Reduce the BS 1 changed to “-1 BS if within 12” of a Plasma Syphon.” Only available to Xenos Inquisitors so the 3++ thing should only affect 2 T3 models in the entire army.
Version 1.1
Spoiler:
So, let’s get started ALL VEHICLES- Psychic Pilot remains same, but instead of being Ld 10 standard, they have different Ld values on their profile.
Lord Kaldor Draigo- Lord of Titan allows 1 Paladin unit to be taken as troops. Change BS from 6 to 5 (see Grand Master). . Grand Strategy cannot be used on Walkers anymore
Grand master Mordrak-Add Independent Character. BS changed from 6, to 5. Grand Strategy cannot be used on Walkers anymore.
Ghost Knights-Remove Krak Grenades and Frags. Add Unyielding Spectres rule. This allows them to ignore terrain when moving, running, charging or falling back. Change cost to 50pts per model.
Castellan Crowe-Change Keeper of Antwyr to allow only a single Purifier unit to be troops.
Grand master-Remove Psykotroke Grenades and Empyrean Brain Mines. Reduce BS to 5. There is no justification for them to be BS 6. Grand Strategy cannot be used on Walkers anymore. Can take Holocaust for +10pts. Represents time as a Paladin
Brother Captain-Remove Empyrean Brain mines and Psykotrokes. Can take Holocaust for +10pts (see Grand master).
Brotherhood Champion-Remove Diital Weapons. They are useless on him! What the hell were they doing there to start with? Also, remove Brain Mines.
Librarian-Hammerhand no longer applies before strength modifiers like Hammers. This is basic mathematics. Other than that, no change.
Inquisitor Valeria-Frag and Krak Grenades. An Inquisitor can’t afford this basic gear?
Techmarines-Gets Nemesis Force Sword for free, instead of Power Sword. Loses Brain Mines and Psykotrokes.
Purifiers-28pts per model. They are cheaper than Sternguard? Base Cost for squad =140pts. Halberds cost 5ppm. Psycannons are 20ppm, Psilincers free, Incinerators are 10ppm, as they help with the role of Horde slaying.
Venerable Dreadnought-Psybolt and Psyflame costs 10ppm instead of 5. Ld 10 under new Psychic Pilot.
Paladins-Cost 60ppm.
Callidus Assassin-Can assault after Deep Strike. Vindicare-Shieldbreaker changed to “If an invulnerable save granted by Wargear or Biomorphs is taken against a shield breaker AND FAILED, only that save is lost for the rest of the game.” Hellfire changed to Poisoned 2+, to keep in line with other hellfire rounds.
Henchman Servitors Mindlock can be negated by Techmarines. If one of the named Inquisitors is within 6” can reroll Mindlock Warrior Acolytes Bolters cost 3ppm, Stormbolters and Hotshots 5ppm. May exchange Laspistol and Chainsword for Lasgun for free. Lose options for power Fists and storm shield. Any can take combat shield for +5ppm.
Terminators-Lose Frag and Krqaks as standard. Must pay 5ppm for them, but get both for 5ppm. Having them the same price as Terminators without these is appalling.
Justicar Thawn-Clarification If he is still part of the squad he counts as their Justicar in all respects, such as Brotherhood of Psykers. He is Mastery Level 1 as per Brotherhood of Psykers and Loses Fearless. These apply until he dies and is resurrected.
Strike Squad-Warp Quake Changed to “Automatic Dangerous Terrain Test,” instead of mishap. However, each model landing in terrain of any sort other than clear will take a mishap. Psycannon costs 20ppm and Incinerators cost 10 (they swap the costs). Base cost for Squad is 110pts (costs 22pts per model)
Rhino and Razorback -Becomes Ld 8 under new Psychic Poilot
Interceptor Squad-Warp Quake change as per Strike Squad. Stormraven- Ld 9 under new Psychic Pilot
Purgators- Psilincer costs 20pts (they shouldn’t move much so this is the most beneficial to their design) and psycannons cost 10pts. Incinerators free.
Dreadnought-Same as Vendread. Ld 10
Nemesis Dreadknights-Can take the same gun twice. In this case it doubles the number of shots. The Heavy Incinerator second shot can be in a different position to the first. Cannot take Personal Teleporter, but when Deep Striking is affected by Teleport Homers. The reason for this is that the Teleport Homer affects Terminator Armour which he is wearing. The Personal Teleporter may not be taklen as it “cannot be used on the bulky Terminator Armour.” So how does it affect the MASSIVE walker thing?
Land Raiders- Cost +5pts (260 for the Godhammer and Crusader, 250 for the Redeemer.) Fortitude really helps them too much. Become Ld 9 for Psychic Pilot
FORTITUDE- Vehicle counts as having Extra armour that turn. Ones that already have Extra armour ignore Shakern and reduce stunned to shaken.
WARGEAR.
Daemonbane-Only affects DAEMONS. Duh.
Add Lasgun for Warrior Acolyte purposes.
Needle Pistol- Becomes Str 1, Poisoned 2+.
Empyrean Brain Mines and Psykotroke Grenades-Remove. These are not needed, are much hated by opponents and just stupid.
Brotherhood Banners- Allows unit to reroll Psychic Tests (even successful ones) instead of autopass the NFW. Must abide by the second and Perils do not carry over.
Plasma Syphon- Wielder has a 3++ save against plasma weaponry. Reduce the BS 1 changed to “-1 BS if within 12” of a Plasma Syphon.” Only available to Xenos Inquisitors so the 3++ thing should only affect 2 T3 models in the entire army.
Version 1.2
Spoiler:
Lord Kaldor Draigo- Lord of Titan allows 1 Paladin unit to be taken as troops. Change BS from 6 to 5 (see Grand Master). . Grand Strategy cannot be used on Walkers anymore
Grand master Mordrak-Add Independent Character. BS changed from 6, to 5. Grand Strategy cannot be used on Walkers anymore.
Ghost Knights-Remove Krak Grenades and Frags. Add Unyielding Spectres rule. This allows them to ignore terrain when moving, running, charging or falling back. Change cost to 45pts per model.
Castellan Crowe-Change Keeper of Antwyr to allow only a single Purifier unit to be troops.
Grand master-Remove Psykotroke Grenades and Empyrean Brain Mines. Reduce BS to 5. There is no justification for them to be BS 6. Grand Strategy cannot be used on Walkers anymore.
Brother Captain-Remove Empyrean Brain mines and Psykotrokes.
Brotherhood Champion-Remove Digital Weapons. They are useless on him! What the hell were they doing there to start with? Also, remove Brain Mines.
Librarian-Hammerhand no longer applies before strength modifiers like Hammers. This is basic mathematics. Other than that, no change.
Inquisitor Coteaz-Cost increased to 160pts
Inquisitor Valeria-Frag and Krak Grenades. An Inquisitor can’t afford this basic gear?
Techmarines-Gets Nemesis Force Sword for free, instead of Power Sword. Loses Brain Mines and Psykotrokes.
Purifiers-28pts per model. They are cheaper than Sternguard? Base Cost for squad =140pts. Halberds cost 5ppm. Psycannons are 20ppm, Psilincers free, Incinerators are 5ppm, as they help with the role of Horde slaying.
Venerable Dreadnought-Psybolt and Psyflame costs 10ppm instead of 5. Option of upgrading to Mastery Level 2.
Paladins-Cost 60ppm.
Callidus Assassin-Can assault after Deep Strike. Vindicare-Shieldbreaker changed to “If an invulnerable save granted by Wargear or Biomorphs is taken against a shield breaker AND FAILED, ONLY THAT SAVE is lost for the rest of the game.” Hellfire changed to Poisoned 2+, to keep in line with other hellfire rounds.
Henchman Servitors Mindlock can be negated by Techmarines. If one of the named Inquisitors is within 6” can reroll Mindlock Warrior Acolytes Bolters cost 3ppm, Stormbolters and Hotshots 5ppm. May exchange Laspistol and Chainsword for Lasgun for free. Lose options for power Fists and storm shield. Any can take combat shield for +5ppm.
Terminators-Lose Frag and Kraks as standard. Must pay 5ppm for them, but get both for 5ppm. Having them the same price as Terminators without these is appalling.
Justicar Thawn-Clarification If he is still part of the squad he counts as their Justicar in all respects, such as Brotherhood of Psykers. He is Mastery Level 1 as per Brotherhood of Psykers and Loses Fearless. These apply until he dies and is resurrected.
Strike Squad-Warp Quake Changed to “Automatic Dangerous Terrain Test,” instead of mishap. However, each model landing in terrain of any sort other than clear will take a mishap. Psycannon costs 20ppm and Incinerators cost 10 (they swap the costs). Base cost for Squad is 110pts (costs 22pts per model)
Interceptor Squad-Warp Quake change as per Strike Squad.
Purgators- Psilincer costs 20pts (they shouldn’t move much so this is the most beneficial to their design) and psycannons cost 10pts. Incinerators free.
Dreadnought-Same as Vendread.
Nemesis Dreadknights-Can take the same gun twice. In this case it doubles the number of shots Can take Personal Teleporter, but when Deep Striking is affected by Teleport Homers. The reason for this is that the Teleport Homer affects Terminator Armour which he is wearing. The Personal Teleporter may not be used to perform a teleport shunt.
FORTITUDE- Vehicle counts as having Extra armour that turn. Ones that already have Extra armour ignore Shaken and reduce stunned to shaken.
WARGEAR.
Daemonbane-Only affects DAEMONS. Duh.
Add Lasgun for Warrior Acolyte purposes.
Needle Pistol- Becomes Str 1, Poisoned 2+.
Empyrean Brain Mines and Psykotroke Grenades-Remove. These are not needed, are much hated by opponents and just stupid.
Brotherhood Banners- Allows unit to reroll Psychic Tests (even successful ones) instead of autopass the NFW. Must abide by the second and Perils do not carry over.
Plasma Syphon- Wielder has a 3++ save against plasma weaponry. Reduce t0 BS 1 changed to “-1 BS if within 12” of a Plasma Syphon.” Only available to Xenos Inquisitors so the 3++ thing should only affect 2 T3 models in the entire army.
Version 1.3
Spoiler:
Lord Kaldor Draigo- Lord of Titan allows 3 Paladin unit to be taken instead of 1, similar to Marneus Calgar allowing 3 Honour Guard Squads. Change BS from 6 to 5 (see Grand Master). . Grand Strategy cannot be used on Walkers anymore.
Grand master Mordrak-Add Independent Character. BS changed from 6, to 5. Grand Strategy cannot be used on Walkers anymore. One Paladin unit can be taken if Ghot Knights are not taken.
Ghost Knights-Remove Krak Grenades and Frags. Add Unyielding Spectres rule. This allows them to ignore terrain when moving, running, charging or falling back. Change cost to 45pts per model.
Castellan Crowe-Change Keeper of Antwyr to allow only a single Purifier unit to be troops.
Grand master-Remove Psykotroke Grenades and Empyrean Brain Mines. Reduce BS to 5. There is no justification for them to be BS 6. Grand Strategy cannot be used on Walkers anymore.
Brother Captain-Remove Empyrean Brain mines and Psykotrokes.
Brotherhood Champion-Remove Digital Weapons. They are useless on him! What the hell were they doing there to start with? Also, remove Brain Mines.
Librarian-Hammerhand no longer applies before strength modifiers like Hammers. This is basic mathematics. Other than that, no change.
Inquisitor Coteaz-Cost increased to 160pts
Inquisitor Valeria-Frag and Krak Grenades. An Inquisitor can’t afford this basic gear?
Inquisitors-Removed from HQ. Made an Elites choice. 1-3 Inquisitors may be included as a single Elites choice, though only 1 group of Inquisitors per army may be taken, making a maximum of 3 Inquisitors in an army. May operate independently, like Sanguary Priests. An combination or Ordoes may be used, so you copuld have all 3 as Malleus or 2 Xenos, 1 Hereticus, or all 3 different. Wargear options and prices same, but price hiked to 40ppm, to compensate for the extra Inquisitorial Henchman you get.
Techmarines-Gets Nemesis Force Sword for free, instead of Power Sword. Loses Brain Mines and Psykotrokes.
Purifiers-28pts per model. They are cheaper than Sternguard? Base Cost for squad =140pts. Halberds cost 5ppm. Psycannons are 20ppm, Psilincers free, Incinerators are 5ppm, as they help with the role of Horde slaying.
Venerable Dreadnought-Psybolt and Psyflame costs 10ppm instead of 5. Option of upgrading to Mastery Level 2.
Paladins-Removed from Elites. Becomes an Honour Guard style unit. 1 squad may be taken per Grand Master, and count as Hqs but do not use a FOC slot. The fluff says they become a bodyguard for Grand Masters so that’s what they should be. Price and options same as codex.
Callidus Assassin-Can assault after Deep Strike. Vindicare-Shieldbreaker changed to “If an invulnerable save granted by Wargear or Biomorphs is taken against a shield breaker AND FAILED, ONLY THAT SAVE is lost for the rest of the game.” Hellfire changed to Poisoned 2+, to keep in line with other hellfire rounds.
Henchman Servitors Mindlock can be negated by Techmarines. If one of the named Inquisitors is within 6” can reroll Mindlock Warrior Acolytes Bolters cost 3ppm, Stormbolters and Hotshots 5ppm. May exchange Laspistol and Chainsword for Lasgun for free. Lose options for power Fists and storm shield. Any can take combat shield for +5ppm.
Terminators-Lose Frag and Kraks as standard. Must pay 5ppm for them, but get both for 5ppm. Having them the same price as Terminators without these is appalling.
Justicar Thawn-Clarification If he is still part of the squad he counts as their Justicar in all respects, such as Brotherhood of Psykers. He is Mastery Level 1 as per Brotherhood of Psykers and Loses Fearless. These apply until he dies and is resurrected.
Strike Squad-Warp Quake Changed to “Automatic Dangerous Terrain Test,” instead of mishap. However, each model landing in terrain of any sort other than clear will take a mishap. Psycannon costs 20ppm and Incinerators cost 10 (they swap the costs). Base cost for Squad is 110pts (costs 22pts per model)
Interceptor Squad-Warp Quake change as per Strike Squad.
Purgators- Psilincer costs 20pts (they shouldn’t move much so this is the most beneficial to their design) and psycannons cost 10pts. Incinerators free.
Dreadnought-Same as Vendread. No option of Mastery Level 2.
Nemesis Dreadknights-Can take the same gun twice. In this case it doubles the number of shots Can take Personal Teleporter, but when Deep Striking is affected by Teleport Homers. The reason for this is that the Teleport Homer affects Terminator Armour which he is wearing. The Personal Teleporter may not be used to perform a teleport shunt.
FORTITUDE- Vehicle counts as having Extra armour that turn. Ones that already have Extra armour ignore Shaken and reduce stunned to shaken.
WARGEAR.
Daemonbane-Only affects DAEMONS. Duh.
Add Lasgun for Warrior Acolyte purposes.
Needle Pistol- Becomes Str 1, Poisoned 2+.
Empyrean Brain Mines and Psykotroke Grenades-Limited to just one model with each type per army. May be taken by Grand Masters and Inquisitors only.
Brotherhood Banners- Allows unit to reroll Psychic Tests (even successful ones) instead of autopass the NFW. Must abide by the second and Perils do not carry over.
Plasma Syphon- Wielder has a 3++ save against plasma weaponry. Reduce t0 BS 1 changed to “-1 BS if within 12” of a Plasma Syphon.” Only available to Xenos Inquisitors so the 3++ thing should only affect 3 T3 models in the entire army.
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2012/05/01 16:51:03
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Bit of a huge nerf to Purifiers
no nerf to strike squads(20point pw and stormbolter is still awesome)
'Fortitude' or 'psykic pilots' needs to change.
Best ideas I can think of is:
-Fortitude only ignores 1 shaken/stun
-Need to pass a fortitude test for every shaken/stun to be ignored
-Psykic pilots are Ld8 so the pass is not automatic.
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Why does the Dreadknight need double strength base? Why doesn't it get to take a personal teleporter? It could easily be explained away as being possible because it's big enough to carry something big enough to teleport it, whereas normal Terminator Armour cannot.
Why would the Turbo Penetrator need a nerf? Sure, it's good, but it's on a 2W T4 non-IC dude.
Also, do you honestly think anyone would by Purifiers with Halberds for 35 points per model? Paladins for 60 ppm?
I also hope you realize that Mordrak as IC is completely broken, as it allows the enemy to deep strike Draigo, 10 Paladins and Mordrak anywhere without scattering turn 1. Have fun with that...
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Cleansing Flame still works. They just got a little more expensive.
no nerf to strike squads(20point pw and stormbolter is still awesome)
Yeah, but the main reason to take them is WQ which is nerfed.
'Fortitude' or 'psykic pilots' needs to change.
Best ideas I can think of is:
-Fortitude only ignores 1 shaken/stun
-Need to pass a fortitude test for every shaken/stun to be ignored
-Psykic pilots are Ld8 so the pass is not automatic.
I don't see why. Ld 10 is fine and ignore all shaken/stunned isn't too much problem now all the other bits have been toned down.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:Why does the Dreadknight need double strength base? Why doesn't it get to take a personal teleporter? It could easily be explained away as being possible because it's big enough to carry something big enough to teleport it, whereas normal Terminator Armour cannot.
Why would the Turbo Penetrator need a nerf? Sure, it's good, but it's on a 2W T4 non-IC dude.
Also, do you honestly think anyone would by Purifiers with Halberds for 35 points per model? Paladins for 60 ppm?
I also hope you realize that Mordrak as IC is completely broken, as it allows the enemy to deep strike Draigo, 10 Paladins and Mordrak anywhere without scattering turn 1. Have fun with that...
All of my alterations are based on the main complaints. 4D6 pen is complained about a lot.
price increases merans they stay where they should be. In an elite group of an elite army. The main problem with GK, IMO is that they are not expensive as they should be.
As for the dreadknight, currently, it pretty much sucks. Allowing it double strength means that it doesn't need a pair of guns or CC weapon to be effective. The Personal Teleporter cannot transport Terminators, and it is the same as the Inerceptor one, so therefore by logic the Dreadknight is too big.
And that deathstar you said costs 1025pts, or 1075pts if you use my 60ppm alteration. And is only 1 troop so it needs at least a 10125/10175 point game to field. Even then you only get barebones squads of paladins and Strike Squads.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/28 19:06:40
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True, I don't like it when SW players give GKs stick saying they are broken, SW's give grey knights quite a bit of a pounding but the game needs to be more balanced so both need to be nerfed imo, it's never fair on the older armies like Tau or Eldar.
grey knights are a mess with points being too high or low for what they do, where as space wolves are just broken with almost every thing being too cheap
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Updated document now up. Small changes include reduce Purifier cost to 28ppm, Strike Marines up to 22ppm and Psychic Pilot/Fortitude change.
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2012/04/30 17:36:34
Subject: Fixing Grey Knights, hopefully. Version 1.1 now up.
What? I don't know why, were you able to view the last on?
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2012/04/30 17:42:24
Subject: Fixing Grey Knights, hopefully. Version 1.1 now up.
I suppose I could Copy and Paste the text here to the OP. It might be my older (really old) computing software doesn't compute with yours. Give me a while though.
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2012/04/30 17:52:55
Subject: Re:Fixing Grey Knights, hopefully. Version 1.1 now up.
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2012/04/30 18:12:55
Subject: Fixing Grey Knights, hopefully. Version 1.1 now up.
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As some of my points seem to have been ignored, I'll quote myself:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:Why does the Dreadknight need double strength base? Why doesn't it get to take a personal teleporter? It could easily be explained away as being possible because it's big enough to carry something big enough to teleport it, whereas normal Terminator Armour cannot.
Why would the Turbo Penetrator need a nerf? Sure, it's good, but it's on a 2W T4 non-IC dude.
I also hope you realize that Mordrak as IC is completely broken, as it allows the enemy to deep strike Draigo, 10 Paladins and Mordrak anywhere without scattering turn 1. Have fun with that...
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2012/04/30 18:41:29
Subject: Re:Fixing Grey Knights, hopefully. Version 1.1 now up.
As far as criticism goes. I don't like that you're not just "rebalancing" it, but are also changing/adding new rules.
Why make the changes to Ghost Knights? 50pts is way too much for them, even with the changes you've allowed for.
The point of Holocaust is that it takes a squad to channel it. It does in the books, and it did in the old codex. I don't like that a single GM can just cast it. Also, what's your rationale for removing the grenades, other than that they get a lot of hate? For what it's worth, I agree with GS not affecting walkers. That was a stupid ruling.
Hammerhand adding the modifier prior to the multiplication follows mathematics. The paragraph describes 2(S+1), instead of 2S + 1, which is what all of the other modifiers normally use.
I'm confused by your pricing of purifiers. Why do you make their cost for psycannons almost as great as that of a terminator's psycannon? Terminators are paying the extra tax for being relentless. Additionally, incinerators should still be free, or 5 points, at the most. You lose two FW attacks with each incinerator you take. That's a pretty huge cost for a flamer that no one already takes.
If one of the named Inquisitors is within 6” can reroll Mindlock Arbitrary, and it rewards taking Special Characters in an army that needs little incentive.
Having Terminators that can't take storm shield for the same price as those who can take storm shields is appalling. I think the grenades aren't uncalled for. No one uses vanilla terminators anyway.
I am not entirely sure your clarifications to Thawn are clarifications. I will have to review the rules.
You're pricing psycannons strangely again on strikes. I approve of what you have done to warp quake.
It looks like you acknowledge the relentless/psycannon cost thing with the Purgation squad, but now it just seems inconsistent with the others.
By the rules, the heavy incinerator shot should almost never be in a different position than the first one, otherwise you're not hitting the same number of targets. It's not a vehicle, so you don't fire from the guns, so each shot is taken from the same place. And concerning the personal teleporter, perhaps it's just so large that it does accommodate one for it's size, where-as the STC based terminator armor did not account for it in it's design?
I do not think that the Land Raiders should have BOTH a reduction in leadership AND an increase in points. Remember that they compete for spots with Dreadnoughts: No one takes them anymore anyway.
Oh, and you nerf Fortitude.... Yeah, definitely no point reductions in that case. Mandatory extra armor on all vehicles you have to succeed at a psychic test to use, and the leadership is reduced for the vehicles it's not entirely abusive on? Otherwise, you're forcing me to pay 10 points for something unreliable when I could have had it from the beginning for 15 points. Not interested.
Needle Pistol - I'm unsure of the implications of your changes here. Please explain.
Concerning the grenades: You remove them because people hate them. I hate long fangs, can we remove them? I also hate the mindshackle scarab things that Necrons have. Can we remove those too? Please rationalize why you're removing them beyond "popular demand".
I'm amused that you needed to justify why you where improving the Plasma Syphon. I think it should halve BS, instead of just decreasing it by one, but that's just my opinion.
---
So, you have a few good things in there, a some things I feel were just changed for the sake of it, and then a lot of things that I think need some serious justification. My biggest problem is that your sense of balance here is breaking the 'no-brainer' stuff so that it's not worth taking. You haven't really done anything to make the objectively BAD things worth reconsidering.
And before you dismiss me as just being a Grey Knight fanboy, I also don't think you've gone far enough in a bunch of other directions. I can still doublestack hammerhand with rad grenades and have two DCA squads assault out of stormravens. Drop an attack from the DCA profile. Hell, you really want to fix things? Make Coteaz cost 150-175 points. At least.
I like the changes to the changes.
I would make regular dreads Ld9 and Ven dreads ld10.
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2012/04/30 19:05:20
Subject: Re:Fixing Grey Knights, hopefully. Version 1.1 now up.
JB_Man wrote:It's important to recognize just how much better Fortitude is than extra armor, while being cheaper, to boot...
Absolutely: It's 10 points cheaper, you can't remove it, and you fail/perils about 11% of the time at LD 10.
At LD 8 you fail it about 30% of the time, and the odds of resisting a Hood go down dramatically.
The proposed changes also make it no better than Extra Armor, and he wants to INCREASE the cost on the Land Raiders.
In turn, I say, "Fine, make it a million points and make the vehicles count as LD 5 for all I care, but make it an upgrade. That I can put it in the pile with psilencers, incinerators, half the henchmen options, falchions, Thawn, Valeria, Karamazov, Interceptors, Purgations, and most of the other vehicle upgrades."
I just added what people wanted to the original document. I will begin answering all of your questions in red.
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2012/04/30 19:50:01
Subject: Re:Fixing Grey Knights, hopefully. Version 1.1 now up.
daedalus wrote:As far as criticism goes. I don't like that you're not just "rebalancing" it, but are also changing/adding new rules.
Why make the changes to Ghost Knights? 50pts is way too much for them, even with the changes you've allowed for.
Ok, so 40pts? Or 45?
The point of Holocaust is that it takes a squad to channel it. It does in the books, and it did in the old codex. I don't like that a single GM can just cast it. Also, what's your rationale for removing the grenades, other than that they get a lot of hate?
They have absolutely no purpose. unlike Eldar with haywire, meltabombs, Tau EMPs and other grenades, Rads, Psykotrokes and brain Mines hae never been mentioned and should not be in there. they are dumb and just a bad item to bring to a game. I left rads though because i felt those were the least silly of the 3.
For what it's worth, I agree with GS not affecting walkers. That was a stupid ruling.
Hammerhand adding the modifier prior to the multiplication follows mathematics. The paragraph describes 2(S+1), instead of 2S + 1, which is what all of the other modifiers normally use.
It doesn't follow normal mathematics used in the game. That was just a cheesy ruling. It was clearly put in there for no reason other than OPness.
I'm confused by your pricing of purifiers. Why do you make their cost for psycannons almost as great as that of a terminator's psycannon? Terminators are paying the extra tax for being relentless. Additionally, incinerators should still be free, or 5 points, at the most. You lose two FW attacks with each incinerator you take. That's a pretty huge cost for a flamer that no one already takes.
The heavy guns for 4 PA squads should be priced according to how well they aid the role of their squad.
Purgators should be sitting still and longe ranging (if it can be called that). Therefor Incinerators should be cheapest because they force movement to bne effective, Psilincers the most expensive because they need to sit still.
Interceptors Psilincers hinder them, as they are mobile and it is not. Psycannons are sort of a mix. But Incineratiors fires at full efficiency on the move so is the most helpful to their fast asault element.
Strike Squads need to be able to hold and move. Hold ground with Psilincers, or storm towards an objective with an Incinerator, but the Psycannon does both.
For Purifiers, Incinerators help best with horde clearing. Psincers help just as well, but Psycannons are far better. unless you want cheaper pyscannons on them.
If one of the named Inquisitors is within 6” can reroll Mindlock Arbitrary, and it rewards taking Special Characters in an army that needs little incentive.
I like special characters and would hope it would provide incentive to take servitors. You are going to take Coteaz anyway so why not take some heavy firepower?
Having Terminators that can't take storm shield for the same price as those who can take storm shields is appalling. I think the grenades aren't uncalled for. No one uses vanilla terminators anyway.
Hammernators are very badly priced.
I am not entirely sure your clarifications to Thawn are clarifications. I will have to review the rules.
You're pricing psycannons strangely again on strikes. I approve of what you have done to warp quake.
see above, and thanks.
It looks like you acknowledge the relentless/psycannon cost thing with the Purgation squad, but now it just seems inconsistent with the others.
see above
By the rules, the heavy incinerator shot should almost never be in a different position than the first one, otherwise you're not hitting the same number of targets. It's not a vehicle, so you don't fire from the guns, so each shot is taken from the same place. And concerning the personal teleporter, perhaps it's just so large that it does accommodate one for it's size, where-as the STC based terminator armor did not account for it in it's design?
Should I just make it double the shots for taking the second gun?
I do not think that the Land Raiders should have BOTH a reduction in leadership AND an increase in points. Remember that they compete for spots with Dreadnoughts: No one takes them anymore anyway.
Was a carry over from V 1.0. Will remove in 1.2
Oh, and you nerf Fortitude.... Yeah, definitely no point reductions in that case. Mandatory extra armor on all vehicles you have to succeed at a psychic test to use, and the leadership is reduced for the vehicles it's not entirely abusive on? Otherwise, you're forcing me to pay 10 points for something unreliable when I could have had it from the beginning for 15 points. Not interested.
See previous. there now is a reason to take Extra Armour as it stacks with Fortitude. I was asked to do something and I did.
Needle Pistol - I'm unsure of the implications of your changes here. Please explain.
Currently it is Str 3, "wounds on 2+." As it is not poisoned it can't reroll to wound against T 1-3 and doesn't ID anything. However, it can. RAW, wound Gcs on 2+. Making It Srtr 1, 2+ poisoned means nothing will change unless firing on a GC.
Concerning the grenades: You remove them because people hate them. I hate long fangs, can we remove them? I also hate the mindshackle scarab things that Necrons have. Can we remove those too? Please rationalize why you're removing them beyond "popular demand".
Answered previously. Personally if it isn't mentioned anywhere in the fluff it shouldn't be there IMO.
I'm amused that you needed to justify why you where improving the Plasma Syphon. I think it should halve BS, instead of just decreasing it by one, but that's just my opinion.
Improving? It changes from nerfing an entire army that already sucks to giving -1 BS to all plasma weapons in 12"? The only army that regularly takes plsma weapons outside of TEQ tailoring is Tau who can easily negate it with Markerlights. The only counterpoint to this change is 1 GEQ gets a storm shield against Plasma shots.
---
So, you have a few good things in there, a some things I feel were just changed for the sake of it, and then a lot of things that I think need some serious justification. My biggest problem is that your sense of balance here is breaking the 'no-brainer' stuff so that it's not worth taking. You haven't really done anything to make the objectively BAD things worth reconsidering.
And before you dismiss me as just being a Grey Knight fanboy, I also don't think you've gone far enough in a bunch of other directions. I can still doublestack hammerhand with rad grenades and have two DCA squads assault out of stormravens. Drop an attack from the DCA profile. Hell, you really want to fix things? Make Coteaz cost 150-175 points. At least.
Will try all of those suggestions in the next ersion. And I can't alter many of the Henchmen because they appear in SOB and need to remain the same. I know SOB are crap codex/footnote at the moment, but I firmly believe if one profile appears in one codex, it should stay the same in a different one unless the fluff syas" DCA under the Inquisition are weaker than the ones found alongside the SOB"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:As some of my points seem to have been ignored, I'll quote myself:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:Why does the Dreadknight need double strength base? Why doesn't it get to take a personal teleporter? It could easily be explained away as being possible because it's big enough to carry something big enough to teleport it, whereas normal Terminator Armour cannot.
Why would the Turbo Penetrator need a nerf? Sure, it's good, but it's on a 2W T4 non-IC dude.
I also hope you realize that Mordrak as IC is completely broken, as it allows the enemy to deep strike Draigo, 10 Paladins and Mordrak anywhere without scattering turn 1. Have fun with that...
I answered these uppage and even changed two of them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/30 19:51:36
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2012/04/30 20:15:27
Subject: Fixing Grey Knights, hopefully. Version 1.1 now up.
I actually agree with alot of these,(wont use them unless their official though)
but maybe a few things:
purifier psycannons - I'd say more around 15ppm (maybe 20ppm for the 3rd and 4th)
henchman bolters - 2ppm, but only reason i ever take them is to round to to 5 points per guy (I know this doesnt make it rounded to a 5, but I thing 6pts per guy with bolter is fair)
dreadknight - should still be able to take the teleporter (or something that lets him move 12") maybe just dont allow the shunt
stormraven - psyammo should be 10-15, 20 is too much... even if you take hvy bolter, AC, and hurricane bolters (hurricane is no longer defensive at that point)
vehicles (dunno if this was addressed) keep them Ld 10, but do what you did for fortitude
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/30 20:16:22
I have half a mind to kill you, and the other half agrees
2012/04/30 20:27:30
Subject: Fixing Grey Knights, hopefully. Version 1.1 now up.
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2012/04/30 20:27:56
Subject: Re:Fixing Grey Knights, hopefully. Version 1.1 now up.
Forgive me, I'm colorblind, and as such, sometimes the colors make it VERY hard for me to read things, so I'm going to do some formatting.
Deadshot wrote:Ok, so 40pts? Or 45?
I mostly just wanted to know what your rationale was behind them. Since they couldn't get special weapons, I always thought they were fine at 40pts.
They have absolutely no purpose. unlike Eldar with haywire, meltabombs, Tau EMPs and other grenades, Rads, Psykotrokes and brain Mines hae never been mentioned and should not be in there. they are dumb and just a bad item to bring to a game. I left rads though because i felt those were the least silly of the 3.
That's fair, but I mean, neither do Dreadknights, psilencers, warding staves, Jokearo, or half of the special characters. I guess it's a matter of where you draw the line.
It doesn't follow normal mathematics used in the game. That was just a cheesy ruling. It was clearly put in there for no reason other than OPness.
Well, it helps counteract the fact that they can't get melta, and as such, have no reliable way to crack AV13/AV14 anti-tank. No, I don't think psycannons qualify.
Deadshot wrote:The heavy guns for 4 PA squads should be priced according to how well they aid the role of their squad.
Purgators should be sitting still and longe ranging (if it can be called that). Therefor Incinerators should be cheapest because they force movement to bne effective, Psilincers the most expensive because they need to sit still.
Interceptors Psilincers hinder them, as they are mobile and it is not. Psycannons are sort of a mix. But Incineratiors fires at full efficiency on the move so is the most helpful to their fast asault element.
Strike Squads need to be able to hold and move. Hold ground with Psilincers, or storm towards an objective with an Incinerator, but the Psycannon does both.
For Purifiers, Incinerators help best with horde clearing. Psincers help just as well, but Psycannons are far better. unless you want cheaper pyscannons on them.
From what I've seen with multi-meltas in devastator squads, the only time anything comes within 24" of a "heavy" weapon is when it's more than ready to. I find myself not getting all the shots on a psycannon very often because of the need to be moving, except maybe against the slowest of footslogging lists. With there being so much in the way of fast vehicles out there, I see the utility of the psycannon decreasing, but without anything to replace it.
Deadshot wrote:I like special characters and would hope it would provide incentive to take servitors. You are going to take Coteaz anyway so why not take some heavy firepower?
Frankly, I'd rather it was around any Inquisitor, but you're right; you're taking Coteaz anyway, at this at least gives the incentive to maybe take servitors.
Deadshot wrote:Hammernators are very badly priced.
Okay, but didn't this just bring these guys up on par with Hammernators? Seems a bit late to fix it in one place but not the other...
Deadshot wrote:Should I just make it double the shots for taking the second gun?
Yeah, I'd just count it as two shots with the heavy incinerator if you have two of them.
Deadshot wrote:See previous. there now is a reason to take Extra Armour as it stacks with Fortitude. I was asked to do something and I did.
So it's a mandatory 5 points for an ability that kind of works like extra armor sometimes and a total of 20 points for the ability it had previously? I guess that will cut down on how much you'd see it on AV11. I think it should be an upgrade power that you buy though, not a automatic built in thing.
Deadshot wrote:Currently it is Str 3, "wounds on 2+." As it is not poisoned it can't reroll to wound against T 1-3 and doesn't ID anything. However, it can. RAW, wound Gcs on 2+. Making It Srtr 1, 2+ poisoned means nothing will change unless firing on a GC.
Forgive my ignorance, but what's a GC?
Deadshot wrote:Answered previously. Personally if it isn't mentioned anywhere in the fluff it shouldn't be there IMO.
I'm normally okay with this philosophy, but then like I said, we actually apply this and we remove half the codex and there's nothing really new beyond point adjusted 3rd edition DH.
Deadshot wrote:Improving? It changes from nerfing an entire army that already sucks to giving -1 BS to all plasma weapons in 12"? The only army that regularly takes plsma weapons outside of TEQ tailoring is Tau who can easily negate it with Markerlights. The only counterpoint to this change is 1 GEQ gets a storm shield against Plasma shots.
I forgot that the FAQ ruled fluff-as-rules on that one. It IS only within 12" though, but I guess that's rapid fire range. I think the real fix for this would be for it simply to not affect every weapon that Tau uses though.
Deadshot wrote:Will try all of those suggestions in the next ersion. And I can't alter many of the Henchmen because they appear in SOB and need to remain the same. I know SOB are crap codex/footnote at the moment, but I firmly believe if one profile appears in one codex, it should stay the same in a different one unless the fluff syas" DCA under the Inquisition are weaker than the ones found alongside the SOB"
I see your point about the SoB deal, though I think Coteaz could still be adjusted.
Nope. I barely own 2kpts and that's only if I max out MC weapons. I am just the guys who saw the cries of "OP, needs fixing!" and et out to do it. Am still typing up V 1.2.
Answers to some questions of yours.
Ghot Knights- I uped points becuase base, they were regular Terminators with Stealth, for the same price. And seeing as I added the "ignores terrain" clause that also added on.
They were all in there for a reason. DK was made to form the "Headline product" opf the range and stop the new GKs, the awesomesauce guys, being a 2 box army. Now they have 3. Psilincers and warding staves are Meh IMO. A crap gun and an expensive invulnerable save. Jokaeros were made for ther older gamers.
I see where you are coming from on melta-hammerhand, but seriously, they could've just give them wrist mounted meltaguns. Or make it so the 2(S+1) only applied against vehicles. It turns a Str 9 weapon into a Str 10 one meaning that they can wound easier and inflict ID on T5.
I don't really know what you are trying to say on the PA psycannons bit. Could you rephrase it please.
Hammernators should not be used as the base Termionator. That should be Vanilla Tac Termies. Hammernators should be up-costed.
GC stands for Gargantuan Creature. I thought the yellow mouse over would come into affect.
As for the "No fluff, no rules" part, those tings were added in to help get GK models and sales up. But the grenades can be represented with a tiny bit of sprue or the grenades that come on any marine model. They don't increase sales, which have justification, and are just silly. There was never need to have them.
And Coteaz is being adjusted.
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