Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I honestly dont play very often.......more of just a painter

I was recently comparing the stats of the two

Standard Ogryn
WS 4 BS 3 S 3 T 5 W 3 I 2 A 3 LD 6 Sv 5+

Ripper gun 12" Str 5 Ap 0 Assault 3

this at a cost of 40 pts


Standard Space Wolf Termie
WS 4 BS 4 S 4 T4 W 1 I 4 A 2 LD 9 Sv 2+

Storm Bolter 24" Str 4 AP 5 Assault 2
Power Weapon

this is at a cost of 33 pts


The Comparisons

survivability is equal
(ex. Ogryn has a 5+ save and 3 wounds.........Termie has 2+ save and one wound

Weapon Skill is equal
(ex. both have 4)

Balistic is equal
(ex. Ogryn has a 3 but gun has three shots......Termie has a 4 but only has 2 shots)

Leadership - Termie is much better

last but not least

Termie has 1 point less in Str but gets a power weapon - Ogryn no power weapon

and the Ogryn costs more

Well i guess its to make the armies more balanced.

how is it really balanced

you can compare each of the similar types of unts from both groups and pretty well equal them out

Compare it to normal terminator with powerfist.
The wolf codex is basically -20% cost off everything for no reason.
The ogryn doesn't synergize very well with IG but on its own, I think it's an awesome unit. 3 hard wounds except against railguns and vindicators which would pwn terminators' 2+.

Realistically unless you put them with a commisar, Ld issues will be the biggest thing. If you get unlucky and loose by 2 or 3, you'll have a real tough roll ahead.

Eh, also ogryns have a bit of a mobility issue. They can't deep strike or use an assault vehicle like terminators can.

interesting point............I dont have the Space Marine Codex so I would know about there point cost in there

GW often points out that there is not a fundamental equation to determine points costs based on stat-line. Points values are more based on how the unit works within an individual codex. Its similar to why you get heavy weapons in certain units that cost more than the same weapon in different units even within the same codex.

Flinty wrote:GW often points out that there is not a fundamental equation to determine points costs based on stat-line. Points values are more based on how the unit works within an individual codex. Its similar to why you get heavy weapons in certain units that cost more than the same weapon in different units even within the same codex.

Then why can veterans take 3 melta guns at 10 points each...when infantry squads can take ONE, also at 10 points, with a point lower BS?
Ogryns need a point decrease and/or a way of making them stick around without a LC.

yet Ogryns are similarly costed to Grotesques....

Flinty wrote:GW often points out that there is not a fundamental equation to determine points costs based on stat-line. Points values are more based on how the unit works within an individual codex. Its similar to why you get heavy weapons in certain units that cost more than the same weapon in different units even within the same codex.

Yeah but that doesn't necessarily mean its priced right. I know that vanilla vs. space wolves/blood angles, the latter two have cheaper equipment that is otherwise exactly the same (or better) for almost no reason. It'd be like if we had a cadian and a catachan codex, and in the cadian one, chimeras are 55pts, but in the catachan one they're 40pts with no downgeades whatsoever.

Anyways, back OT, The two main ways I've heard of them being run is a big mob of em on foot with a lord commmissar with cloak/fist/whatever else you want, and 5 with a lord commissar in a chimera. The first works well with a foot horde list, as you can hide them behind a blob of infantry for a 3+ cover save. The latter works better for mech since you'll have tons of other chimeras to split fire

You have to remember that 'nilla marines get stuff that SW and BA don't get as well.

Not equal at all.

The Ogryn might have 3 wounds but he also has a 5+ Armor save meaning anything with an AP value of 5 or more ignores it entirely. If those two engages head to head. The Termie would most likely kill him in a single turn with two ranged wounds and one assault wound or vice versa (assuming it was within 6") and the Ogryn couldn't even roll a save.

Ogryns require support and a specific roll, Termies are more of a stand alone unit.


I'll use them again when they get a 3+ save or something.

I think they are actually balanced, but they're not in their respective codices to do quite the same job, so you can't just 1-to-1 compare them and have it make perfect sense.

Where the biggest difference between the two is is in durability. If you shoot a squad of termies with, say, a 5x sternguard with combi-plasma squad, those termies are toast. Meanwhile, the ogryn lose just a single model (or not even if the guard player can wound wrap properly). One squad was wiped, the other was just made angry. On the other hand, of course, termies care far less about force weapons and demolisher cannons.

Also their killing power is kitted slightly differently. A termie putting down two bolter shots and charging in for 3 power fist shots has a very different profile then an ogryn putting down 3 S5 attacks in the shooting phase and 4 S6 non-power attacks. Termies will do better against tough units with no or poor quality invul saves, while the ogryn will do better at causing more armor saves.

For reference, I once played a game that saw two units of 5 termies up against a 5-man stormie squad, and a 5-brute ogryn squad with a LC. The two are roughly equivalent in price (termies actually a bit more expensive), and the ogryn+stormies beat up both squads while only losing the stormies.

The termies may have had power fists, but the ogryn had much higher volume of firepower, and they got to attack before the first power fist blow landed.

Ailaros wrote:a 5x sternguard with combi-plasma squad, those termies are toast. Meanwhile, the ogryn lose just a single model

This is a very good point.

Ailaros wrote:I think they are actually balanced, but they're not in their respective codices to do quite the same job, so you can't just 1-to-1 compare them and have it make perfect sense.

With all due respect, I disagree with you here. In my opinion the Ogryns are either not strong enough for the price you pay, or overpriced for what you get. I think the 1 to 1 comparison made by LokataWolf was a good way of highlighting how overpriced the Ogryns are.

Even the main tactica for Ogryns on here suggests that they are up to 25% overpriced. (http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/5th_Edition_Imperial_Guard_Codex_Elites_Review_%28Polonius%29)


From a cynical perspective I believe Games Workshop could be reducing the points cost for the models in the Space Wolves army so that you can field more models in a game, thus prompting people to buy more. Keep an eye on the next couple of armies to be released. If they are similarly reduced in points cost by 20% or so then I think there is substantial evidence to support a marketing strategy theory.

Marsden wrote:With all due respect, I disagree with you here. In my opinion the Ogryns are either not strong enough for the price you pay, or overpriced for what you get. I think the 1 to 1 comparison made by LokataWolf was a good way of highlighting how overpriced the Ogryns are.

Different unit with a different role in the context of a different army. They don't need to stack up 1 to 1.

The fact that ogryn can still win in a direct engagement doesn't bolster arguments against them much even if you do run that kind of scenario.

Marsden wrote:
With all due respect, I disagree with you here. In my opinion the Ogryns are either not strong enough for the price you pay, or overpriced for what you get. I think the 1 to 1 comparison made by LokataWolf was a good way of highlighting how overpriced the Ogryns are.

Even the main tactica for Ogryns on here suggests that they are up to 25% overpriced. (http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/5th_Edition_Imperial_Guard_Codex_Elites_Review_%28Polonius%29)


From a cynical perspective I believe Games Workshop could be reducing the points cost for the models in the Space Wolves army so that you can field more models in a game, thus prompting people to buy more. Keep an eye on the next couple of armies to be released. If they are similarly reduced in points cost by 20% or so then I think there is substantial evidence to support a marketing strategy theory.

I gotta say that Ogryns are about on par with Grotesques but that both should be 5 points cheaper and could be 10 points cheaper. I almost expect they would be as Ogryns and Grotesques are some of GW's most expensive models.

terranarc wrote:Compare it to normal terminator with powerfist.
The wolf codex is basically -20% cost off everything for no reason.

Vanilla marines TH/SS terminator-40p
Wolf TH/SS terminator- 63p
how does 40-20%=63?

Survivability's nowhere near equal, the Ogryn is tougher. 15 bolter shots from a Space Marine to kill an Ogryn versus 17 to kill a Terminator, true, but 3 plasma gun shots from a Space Marine to kill a Terminator versus 7 to kill an Ogryn, for instance.

The Ogryn is slightly more accurate, the math gives an expected value of 1.5 hits from 3 shots at BS3 compared to 1.34 hits from 2 shots at BS4. Factoring in the higher Strength of the Ogryn's gun as well, the Terminator is only better at shooting enemies with an armor save of 5+, the math gives superior numbers for the Ogryn against enemies of any Toughness with any other armor save.

Ogryns' lower Ld tends to be offset by the fact that they're the first place you put a Lord Commissar.

And finally, among things you have not considered here, Ogryns have more Attacks than Terminators, and Furious Charge to boot. They're better at fighting foes not in power armor, true, but they deal with greater numbers/higher Toughness much better than Terminators do.

I'm not saying the Ogryn isn't overpriced, but declaring him to be equal to a Space Marine Terminator may be stretching it. I'd call them 35pts with the rules as-is.

AnomanderRake wrote:Survivability's nowhere near equal, the Ogryn is tougher. 15 bolter shots from a Space Marine to kill an Ogryn versus 17 to kill a Terminator, true, but 3 plasma gun shots from a Space Marine to kill a Terminator versus 7 to kill an Ogryn, for instance.

The Ogryn is slightly more accurate, the math gives an expected value of 1.5 hits from 3 shots at BS3 compared to 1.34 hits from 2 shots at BS4. Factoring in the higher Strength of the Ogryn's gun as well, the Terminator is only better at shooting enemies with an armor save of 5+, the math gives superior numbers for the Ogryn against enemies of any Toughness with any other armor save.

Ogryns' lower Ld tends to be offset by the fact that they're the first place you put a Lord Commissar.

And finally, among things you have not considered here, Ogryns have more Attacks than Terminators, and Furious Charge to boot. They're better at fighting foes not in power armor, true, but they deal with greater numbers/higher Toughness much better than Terminators do.

I'm not saying the Ogryn isn't overpriced, but declaring him to be equal to a Space Marine Terminator may be stretching it. I'd call them 35pts with the rules as-is.

I agree with you Anomander- the Ogryns are pretty much the Guard's only dedicated close combat unit (with the possible exception of Rough Riders) so should be 35 points in value.
Also, a Bone 'Ead is really powerful with 4 attacks and Furious Charge!

The problem with many 'over priced' arguments is that there is a serious logical falacy in play. If you extend the arguement of cost to everything else then you see how silly it is. How many points is a fully decked out close combat terminator squad? How much are close combat guardsmen? At 240 points you get 3 sgts and a commissar and 27 guardman with a few flamers. The terminators have got to get the charge in AND have good luck to survive, let alone win. And at 305 you get a 40man blob. I have never seen, not once, in any of my games as the guard a squad of terminators kill a large blob of guardsmen as long as they have a commissar and power weapons. I've seen a tactical squad do it, but never terminators. Does that mean that a squad of guardsmen is underpriced, or a squad of terminators are overpriced? Or that tactical marines should be 15 percent more than terminators?

You're comparing a unit that is designed to crush small high powered targets (terminators), with a unit that not only is a small high powered target, but is also designed to kill masses of low powered targets (Ogryns).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and not to side track the origional poster's post, but the entire codex, with few exceptions, can be easilly made into dedicated close combat units. Usually much to you opponant's surprise.

The problem with this is people think they can use "math" to determine which unit is essentially better.

Math and statistics are arguably two completely different things. This is a game of probability, with human error, and outside variables. If dice rolls were so easily calculable then everyone would win at the craps table.

This is like those erroneous HWS debates on which to take. LC's vs AC's vs Bolters etc. They all have different uses just as the Ogryns and Termies have different uses.

Silentway wrote:If dice rolls were so easily calculable then everyone would win at the craps table.

Move over boy. Make room for people who actually understand statistics.

If you've got a better way to talk objectively about things, I'd like to hear it.

Silentway wrote:
Math and statistics are arguably two completely different things. This is a game of probability, with human error, and outside variables. If dice rolls were so easily calculable then everyone would win at the craps table.

Ummmmmm you understand that statistics is math, correct? Your comment is like saying cakes and baking are arguably two completely different things...

If I try to undstand what you are saying is that there may be different variables (like type of die, rolling surface, etc) The reason the dice don't ever come out exactly the way mathhammer works is because the sample size is small, so you will have some variation. As the amount of dice rolled approaches infinity the math become perfect. (This is also the argument that Orks are the least random 40k army )

Ailaros wrote:

Silentway wrote:If dice rolls were so easily calculable then everyone would win at the craps table.

Move over boy. Make room for people who actually understand statistics.

If you've got a better way to talk objectively about things, I'd like to hear it.

Do elaborate boy.

Just because you roll 20 dice and you need a 4+ to hit doesn't mean 50% of the dice will be a hit. You can still roll 20 dice and miss all of them. That's my point. The argument of one over the other is erroneous as each unit has entirely different rolls and perposes and their success is determined by said dice rolls, essentially luck. Saying a Terminator will die with 15 bolter shots and an Ogryn will die with 17 is a failed argument.

@Optimusprime.

Cakes and baking are two different things. One is the product of the other, if they were the same one would not be a product.

Stats uses a lot of math but it's not math on it's own. I've taken plenty of Stats classes. Stats is an interpretation of data and analysis. You use math to help determine the statistic and forge an interpretation but it's still an interpretation. Yes, part of my point is that your environment changes the way dice are rolled and how they land, we can't calculate that.

Silentway wrote:Just because you roll 20 dice and you need a 4+ to hit doesn't mean 50% of the dice will be a hit. You can still roll 20 dice and miss all of them. That's my point.

Of course you can, but you're missing the point.

Statistics may not be able to tell you what any specific die roll will be, but it allows you to talk about probability objectively. This allows you to compare things abstractly, and thus, say, have a discussion about things on a tactics board.

If you're going to completely throw away a system for being able to talk about things in the abstract because it doesn't give you specifics in the concrete, then not only are you missing the purpose for statistics, but you're also throwing away a means to talk about things objectively, in the abstract, and replacing it with what? Anecdotes? I could come up with a lot of subjective ways for talking about units in 40k, but none of them would matter in a reasonable discussion.

Your argument is moot.

The validity of a statistic is objective.

In this particular case you don't need a discussion about probability and statistics because the units are completely different and used for different purposes.

Feel free to continue posting erroneous probability statistics and I'll continue to smile and beat the odds.

Now back to the topic shall we.

Lol. You're honestly saying we should take advice from you because you're lucky? Or are you trying to say that you bring weighted dice to your games? How exactly do you "beat the odds" if your die rolls are truly random?

It's interesting that the only way an argument can be valid or on topic is if it agrees with the results of how you think your die rolls should be.

Termies and ogryn have already been compared objectively. I'm sorry that objectivity isn't good enough for you...

I should have known where this was going judging by your past posts with other users.

I'll do what I normally do with people like you. *smile and nod* "Yes, Ailaros, good for you"

The argument between Ogryns and Terminators is that they both have different weaknesses, and I think the Ogryns role is done better by other units.

A terminators role is a strong assault unit that can deal with taking out elites and doesn't do well against a large number of small attacks (20 ork boyz for example). They have little issue with wargear to adjust to different situations (anti tank, antihorde). They are vulnerable to ap 2 as well and 2 wound terminators are worried about str 8 and above. On the other hand, Ogryns are more geared to pick on hordes and tarpit them wtih their high toughness, their low armor save is irrelevant when they hide behind other units which grants them a cover save of 4+, and their guns low ap is just as irrelevant because their opponents have a 4+save. Ogryns are weaker to large volumes of fire, but their toughness 5 mitigates this as well as the fear of instant death at range from anything that is less than str 10. Their str of 6 on the charge makes them great at dealing with most vehicles. This makes them more of a counter charge unit that puts out as much fire as a heavy weapon bolter team without the fear of instant death on str 6 weapons, as well as the ability to move without sacrificing firepower. So Ogryns are better at picking on weaker units or tarpitting, the only problem is that the things ogryns are good at killing, pie plates or massed lasgun fire do just as well.

I'm sure many people will disagree with me though.

Silentway wrote:I should have known where this was going judging by your past posts with other users.

I'll do what I normally do with people like you. *smile and nod* "Yes, Ailaros, good for you"

Silentway wrote:This is like those erroneous HWS debates on which to take. LC's vs AC's vs Bolters etc. They all have different uses just as the Ogryns and Termies have different uses.

Either I got really lost, or your point has nothing really to do with the applicability of statistics to 40k. Statistics can help you determine which weapon to bring based on the units you are expecting to fight. You can even figure out how many heavy weapons you need to bring if you have some idea about the number of models you will need to take down.

It seems like you are saying that Ogryns may be overpriced, but can be worth paying for in order to fill a role not satisfied by any other unit in the codex. And that's an entirely valid point...except I'm not sure I can think of a typical situation where Ogryns would be a better choice than something else in the codex.