Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

We have a local player who plays Black Templars and one of his troop choices can be armed with Bolt Pistols, Chainswords, and there are options for additional weaponry. His question is "the special weapons/heavy weapons state 'may be armed with at x cost' does this replace one of their weapons, like a codex marine would, or does the model simply have that weapon in addition to his starting load out?"

We are not sure what to do as the book is 4th ed. I suggested he do it like codex marines, otherwise (although we do not enforce WYSIWYG 100%) he'd have to do some crazy modeling fiasco to get 3 weapons on one guy.

If it doesn't say they lose their base equipment then they do retain it.

And in general, you do not have to model a model's basic wargear. He is assumed to have it already. Upgrades are what you need to represent.

You can just model him with his chainsword and pistol holstered at his side while he's toting his Meltagun/Flamer about(and assumedly he will draw his CCWs when entering melee)

As a Black Templar player I've also found that to be confusing.

I've always assumed that any model may have at most 'two weapons, of which only one can be a two-handed weapon.' This is stated in the Wargear section, and while only some Marines are entitled to Wargear, I've accepted that as the convention when replacing/adding weapons.

That is how I play, but Grey Templar would be right. I think 3 or 4 weapons on a Space Marine is a bit ridiculous, though.

I believe it to be, just as it reads.

Initiates can be armed with:
Bolt Pistol and close combat weapon; Bolter; or any combination of the two.
Or they could be equipped with the options described therein.

It's an either/or thing. The Initiate is armed with a Bolt Pistol and close combat weapon, or Bolter, or an option as described.

Mike Zulu wrote:I've always assumed that any model may have at most 'two weapons, of which only one can be a two-handed weapon.' This is stated in the Wargear section, ...

Have another look... It doesn't actually say that at all.

insaniak wrote:

Mike Zulu wrote:I've always assumed that any model may have at most 'two weapons, of which only one can be a two-handed weapon.' This is stated in the Wargear section, ...

Have another look... It doesn't actually say that at all.

Yes it does, page 26: "Black Templars Armoury."

... My bad, that's not the "Wargear" section, is it?

Nevertheless, I used it as a guide because it made more sense than loading up a Space Marine with 3 or 4 weapons.

Mike Zulu wrote:Yes it does, page 26: "Black Templars Armoury."

... My bad, that's not the "Wargear" section, is it?

I knew which part you meant... and my point stands. It doesn't say what you think it says.

The BT armoury limits how many weapons a model can select from the armoury, not how many weapons a model can have.

insaniak wrote:

Mike Zulu wrote:Yes it does, page 26: "Black Templars Armoury."

... My bad, that's not the "Wargear" section, is it?

I knew which part you meant... and my point stands. It doesn't say what you think it says.

The BT armoury limits how many weapons a model can select from the armoury, not how many weapons a model can have.

I'm of the same opinion on this section. Just to clarify, that would mean I can take a terminator command squad sergeant (Who has access to the armory) and give him a second power sword, correct?

Irdiumstern wrote: Just to clarify, that would mean I can take a terminator command squad sergeant (Who has access to the armory) and give him a second power sword, correct?

That would be correct. There is nothing in the BT codex that says that you have to remove an existing weapon if you select one from the armoury.

Edit: w/e

Page 30, under "Options", last sentence:

"Any model who takes an upgrade weapon loses the weapon he was originally armed with unless otherwise stated".

This leads to fun scenarios such as Chaplains being unable to take even a Bolt Pistol if they want to retain their Crozius Arcanum, but that's what it says.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Page 30, under "Options", last sentence:

"Any model who takes an upgrade weapon loses the weapon he was originally armed with unless otherwise stated".

This is dealing with weapons taken as upgrades in the unit entry. It has nothing to do with the Armoury.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Page 30, under "Options", last sentence:

"Any model who takes an upgrade weapon loses the weapon he was originally armed with unless otherwise stated".

This leads to fun scenarios such as Chaplains being unable to take even a Bolt Pistol if they want to retain their Crozius Arcanum, but that's what it says.

Impossible we all missed that.

But the Crozius is just a power weapon. So you're saying we'd have to pay another 15 points for a power weapon in order to take a second weapon, since the Armoury selection replaces it?

I think that the two weapons rule I mentioned before includes what they originally equipped with. Exact words are:

"Models with access to the Armoury may select up to two weapons of which only one can be a two-handed weapon."

It doesn't say "select FROM the armoury." Why can't the weapon selected already be in their profile? If not, then this leads to stupid situations where we pay for a weapon we already have (as mentioned above), if we want to add a second.

And if it didn't count for the Armoury and you just added two weapons, then other stupid situations occur, like Terminator Sergeants could be given a storm bolter, power sword and a pair of lightning claws.

insaniak wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Page 30, under "Options", last sentence:

"Any model who takes an upgrade weapon loses the weapon he was originally armed with unless otherwise stated".

This is dealing with weapons taken as upgrades in the unit entry. It has nothing to do with the Armoury.

And we're dealing with a Troops choice taking an upgrade from a unit entry, so what's the problem?

Furthermore, any upgrade bought from the armoury per definition is an upgrade taken from the unit entry, as that's where you get permission to take them in the first place.

So, this thread has been more confusing than enlightening, the units 'can' have all options or the units 'replace' a weapon with the new weapon?

Anything purchasing a weapon from it's unit entry replaces it's base weapon with the weapon it upgrades to. What we're currently debating is whether this is also true for models that buy items from the armoury.

Mike Zulu wrote: Why can't the weapon selected already be in their profile?

Because you're not selecting a weapon if it's already in their profile...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:And we're dealing with a Troops choice taking an upgrade from a unit entry, so what's the problem?

I suspect that you might have missed at least last half of the thread. The talk about the armoury was a slight sidetrack.

Furthermore, any upgrade bought from the armoury per definition is an upgrade taken from the unit entry, as that's where you get permission to take them in the first place.

It's still different to the squad options like meltaguns and the like bought directly fromt he Options section in the army list, which is what the quote from page 30 is dealing with.

insaniak wrote:It's still different to the squad options like meltaguns and the like bought directly fromt he Options section in the army list, which is what the quote from page 30 is dealing with.

I see where you're coming from and agree that that's one way to read it, but the part in the army list allowing a model to take weapons from the armoury is listed under options in the army list as well, which is what the thingie on pg. 30 is about.

Crusader Initiates can absolutely take a meltagun and keep their bolt pistol and ccw.

For comparison, flip a page over to the Assault squad, and note how it uses the words replace. The sentence is written completely different than that of the Crusader Squad.

That is two very separate wordings pertaining to similar instances, (GW proofreading reputation aside) you have no basis to think the divide was in any way unintentional.

culsandar wrote:Crusader Initiates can absolutely take a meltagun and keep their bolt pistol and ccw.

See page 30 of Codex: Black Templars, under the heading, "Army List Entries", sub-heading, "Options:". They can not keep the bolt pistol and close combat weapon.

ToBeWilly wrote:

culsandar wrote:Crusader Initiates can absolutely take a meltagun and keep their bolt pistol and ccw.

See page 30 of Codex: Black Templars, under the heading, "Army List Entries", sub-heading, "Options:". They can not keep the bolt pistol and close combat weapon.

So who is right? Because I am still confused.

For those army list entries that have weapon upgrades listed, taking an upgrade replaces the model's original weapons, as per page 30.

For those army list entries where the Options section just says to select from the armoury, you just select additional items from the armoury.

If you try to apply the Options blurb from page 30 to the armoury, Chaplains could never have a Crozius and a bolt pistol... the moment you select anything from the armoury, he would lose his Crozius.

ToBeWilly wrote:

culsandar wrote:Crusader Initiates can absolutely take a meltagun and keep their bolt pistol and ccw.

See page 30 of Codex: Black Templars, under the heading, "Army List Entries", sub-heading, "Options:". They can not keep the bolt pistol and close combat weapon.

By that logic every unit in the codex that takes grenades lose their starting weaponry, as grenades are listed under options and have the same caveat "may be equipped/armed". Or as the above example a Chaplain would lose his Crozius. You think it coincidence that the Terminator Command Squad, Terminator Squad, Dreadnought, Assault Squad, Land Speeder, Bike Squadron, and Attack Bike Squadron use the words "exchange" and/or "replace"; while the Sword Brethren, Command Squad, and Crusader Squad use the term "may be equipped/armed"?

Be that as it may, you're reading page 30 wrong. It specifically mentions "If a squad is allowed to have models with upgrades...", and then "Any model who takes an upgrade weapon loses the weapon he was originally armed with unless otherwise stated." According to codex, the only units allowed to take "Upgrades" is Dreadnoughts (gun arms), Techmarines (servo-harness), Land Speeders (Tornado/Typhoon), and the Command Squad (Standard Bearer, Company Champion, Apothecary). There is no mention of the word "Upgrade" in the Crusader Squad entry. If you are attempting to apply the blanket term "Upgrade" to anyone that takes a listing from the Options section of their entry, whilst there are clear entries actually labeled Upgrade in the book, you have a poor argument.

This needs to be FAQ'd

It really doesn't. It's not as complicated as people are trying to make out.

If a unit entry includes weapons upgrades in the Options section, and a models takes one of those upgrades, they lose their original weapons unless the entry specifically says otherwise as per page 30.

If a model selects weapons from the armoury, they don't.

It's that simple.

culsandar wrote:By that logic every unit in the codex that takes grenades lose their starting weaponry, as grenades are listed under options and have the same caveat "may be equipped/armed". Or as the above example a Chaplain would lose his Crozius. You think it coincidence that the Terminator Command Squad, Terminator Squad, Dreadnought, Assault Squad, Land Speeder, Bike Squadron, and Attack Bike Squadron use the words "exchange" and/or "replace"; while the Sword Brethren, Command Squad, and Crusader Squad use the term "may be equipped/armed"?

Be that as it may, you're reading page 30 wrong. It specifically mentions "If a squad is allowed to have models with upgrades...", and then "Any model who takes an upgrade weapon loses the weapon he was originally armed with unless otherwise stated." According to codex, the only units allowed to take "Upgrades" is Dreadnoughts (gun arms), Techmarines (servo-harness), Land Speeders (Tornado/Typhoon), and the Command Squad (Standard Bearer, Company Champion, Apothecary). There is no mention of the word "Upgrade" in the Crusader Squad entry. If you are attempting to apply the blanket term "Upgrade" to anyone that takes a listing from the Options section of their entry, whilst there are clear entries actually labeled Upgrade in the book, you have a poor argument.

Grenades are not listed in any of the unit entries as a weapon. So this is irrelevant. Only models who take an upgrade weapon will lose its original weapons. And those items are clearly listed as weapons in the "Options" part of the unit entry. Which, is what page 30 is trying to describe; an upgrade weapon taken from the "Options" section of the unit entry. If you have access to the Armoury, you are not taking an upgrade weapon from the "Options" section of the unit entry. You are taking it from the Armoury, which has it's own rules (see page 26 for those). Your whole "upgrade" argument, I don't understand. If you are taking a weapon listed in the "Options" section of the unit entry, and paying more points for that weapon, isn't that by definition, an upgrade?

So basically, the guys I am asking about, because it says "may be armed with" or whatever and not "exchange, replace, etc" the addition weapon is in addition to their normal gear, right?

All of this other mumbo-jumbo crap is confusing me and not furthering the topic of my original post.

Jstncloud wrote:So basically, the guys I am asking about, because it says "may be armed with" or whatever and not "exchange, replace, etc" the addition weapon is in addition to their normal gear, right?

Nope. As per page 30, if it doesn't actually specify that they keep their original weapons, the upgrade weapon replaces them.

ToBeWilly wrote:Only models who take an upgrade weapon will lose its original weapons. And those items are clearly listed as weapons in the "Options" part of the unit entry. Which, is what page 30 is trying to describe; an upgrade weapon taken from the "Options" section of the unit entry.

This part is correct.

ToBeWilly wrote:If you are taking a weapon listed in the "Options" section of the unit entry, and paying more points for that weapon, isn't that by definition, an upgrade?

This part is not. This is what I was describing. You are reading the word "upgrade" on page 30 and applying it falsely and out of context to any unit that takes a weapon listed under their individual Options heading. That is incorrect. Under every entry I listed, there are clearly worded examples of the use of the word "upgrade".

1.) A Crusader Initiate equipped with a meltagun is not an upgrade, hence him not losing his normal armament because it does not use the words replace and/or exchange.

2.) A Command Squad member upgraded to an Company Champion is an upgrade, hence him losing his normal armament and gaining the listed power weapon, combat shield, and bolt pistol.

See the difference now?

No, you're creating a distinction that isn't actually present in the rules.