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1. Am i allowed to use the Eternity gate on the Monolith to teleport units which are falling back?

2. Does the Crystal on the top of the Monolith count as the Particle whip? or is it like the old Monolith where i can fire it from any of its weapons?

Thanks

rogersss wrote:1. Am i allowed to use the Eternity gate on the Monolith to teleport units which are falling back?

From the Rulebook FAQ, found here
Q: When a model that can move outside of the
Movement phase, for example jet pack infantry, is
falling back, can it use this move? (page 45)
A: Yes, though it must follow the Fall Back! rules to
determine the direction it will move in.

I know this doesn't answer your specific question, but I think it gives some insight into abilities that replace normal movement or fall outside moving normally.

rogersss wrote:2. Does the Crystal on the top of the Monolith count as the Particle whip? or is it like the old Monolith where i can fire it from any of its weapons?

Thanks

I've always used the crystal. For no other reason then it just seems right. I also believe it describes it as such in the Codex.

To answer number 1, yes, but they'd still be falling back.

ToBeWilly wrote:

rogersss wrote:1. Am i allowed to use the Eternity gate on the Monolith to teleport units which are falling back?

From the Rulebook FAQ, found here
Q: When a model that can move outside of the
Movement phase, for example jet pack infantry, is
falling back, can it use this move? (page 45)
A: Yes, though it must follow the Fall Back! rules to
determine the direction it will move in.

I know this doesn't answer your specific question, but I think it gives some insight into abilities that replace normal movement or fall outside moving normally.

rogersss wrote:2. Does the Crystal on the top of the Monolith count as the Particle whip? or is it like the old Monolith where i can fire it from any of its weapons?

Thanks

I've always used the crystal. For no other reason then it just seems right. I also believe it describes it as such in the Codex.

In the previous codex's FAQ you used the guns to determine LOS for the whip. Now though I believe it's the crystal.

As for the fall back question, I'd also have to answer yes.

ToBeWilly wrote:

rogersss wrote:1. Am i allowed to use the Eternity gate on the Monolith to teleport units which are falling back?

From the Rulebook FAQ, found here
Q: When a model that can move outside of the
Movement phase, for example jet pack infantry, is
falling back, can it use this move? (page 45)
A: Yes, though it must follow the Fall Back! rules to
determine the direction it will move in.

I know this doesn't answer your specific question, but I think it gives some insight into abilities that replace normal movement or fall outside moving normally.

The fallback rules say that you must ALWAYS move towards your table edge, or towards the shortest table edge. So if teleporting to the eternity gate gets you closer to the board edge then yes. If not, then no.

edit: stupid nested quotes break me

Exergy wrote:

ToBeWilly wrote:

rogersss wrote:1. Am i allowed to use the Eternity gate on the Monolith to teleport units which are falling back?

From the Rulebook FAQ, found here
Q: When a model that can move outside of the
Movement phase, for example jet pack infantry, is
falling back, can it use this move? (page 45)
A: Yes, though it must follow the Fall Back! rules to
determine the direction it will move in.

I know this doesn't answer your specific question, but I think it gives some insight into abilities that replace normal movement or fall outside moving normally.

The fallback rules say that you must ALWAYS move towards your table edge, or towards the shortest table edge. So if teleporting to the eternity gate gets you closer to the board edge then yes. If not, then no.

edit: stupid nested quotes break me

The thing is, the monolith is the one doing the action, not the unit, so you're not breaking a fall back move rule. *Redacted*

Actually, fall back moves do not occur at the beginning of the movement phase, they happen when you move that particular unit.

don_mondo wrote:Actually, fall back moves do not occur at the beginning of the movement phase, they happen when you move that particular unit.

Ya, you're right, I was just looking at that and about to change my post. Coulda sworn I saw earlier that it was at the start of movement, but whatever.

so you could in theory teleport the falling back unit, then that unit would continue to fall back towards its table edge. really handy if they are about to run off and porting them would take them away from the edge...?

There's no reason why you can... :/

This is true, but you'll get the KP anyway if they're falling back, it would just help if you need extra shots on a unit as you can shoot whilst falling back!

It might help if a unit is being chased off the table and can't regroup due to the close proximity of an enemy unit. port it away from that unit and they might rally next turn.

Praxiss wrote:It might help if a unit is being chased off the table and can't regroup due to the close proximity of an enemy unit. port it away from that unit and they might rally next turn.

QFT

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Praxiss wrote:It might help if a unit is being chased off the table and can't regroup due to the close proximity of an enemy unit. port it away from that unit and they might rally next turn.

QFT

Make sure your monolith isn't too close to your edge of the unit might still run off the table

Edit: failed post.

DarthSpader wrote:so you could in theory teleport the falling back unit, then that unit would continue to fall back towards its table edge. really handy if they are about to run off and porting them would take them away from the edge...?

cheapbuster wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Praxiss wrote:It might help if a unit is being chased off the table and can't regroup due to the close proximity of an enemy unit. port it away from that unit and they might rally next turn.

QFT

Make sure your monolith isn't too close to your edge of the unit might still run off the table

There's a couple of problems with both of these. Consider;

When a unit teleports through the corridor, "...the move is treated exactly as disembarking from a vehicle that has moved at combat speed." Necron Codex page 47

And if a vehicle has moved in the Movement phase, the unit can disembark but it may "...not move any further in that Movement phase." Main rules page 67

But a unit that is falling back, unless it regroups, "In each subsequent Movement phase, they will make further fall back moves instead of moving normally..." Main rules page 45.

And a fall back move is normally 2D6".

If a unit teleports through the monolith, it has not made a 2D6" move.

And if it teleports it cannot make a 2D6" move since the teleport is treated as disembarking from a transport that moved at combat speed preventing the disembarking unit from making any further moves.

Plus, the Necron rule itself calls teleporting through the Monolith a "move" and the unit that is falling back may only make fall back moves until it regroups, is destroyed or leaves the table.

Based on this, I don't believe a unit that is falling back could use the dimensional corridor.

time wizard wrote:*Snipped Quote for ease of reading*

Well let's see here, "The Move" in the Dimensional corridor rule is referencing the monoliths ability, not the units movement. There's nothing in the rules stating that an embarked unit that has to make a fall back move causes the vehicle to have to follow the same rules. You don't have to move the falling back unit prior to anything else.

So lets say for whatever reason you have a unit in a vehicle and suddenly that embarked unit failed a morale check and has to run, but the vehicle has moved at all, what do you do? You treat them just like any other disembarking unit. Same goes for here. The units are not 'embarking' so they're not breaking any voluntary movement rules. They're being forced to disembark, so they're still not breaking any voluntary movement rules.

They have not taken their turn in the movement phase yet, so they're not breaking that rule. They simply can't move due to disembarking from a vehicle that counts as moving. There is really no rule being broken here, that I can see. In fact, the wording in fall back says they move 2d6" toward your table edge instead of moving normally, so in this situation you would still be required to make the 2d6" fall back move since "moving normally" in this situation is "not moving at all due to disembarking rules".

Kevin949 wrote: "The Move" in the Dimensional corridor rule is referencing the monoliths ability, not the units movement.

The rule on page 47 of Codex Necrons states that "...one friendly un-engaged non-vehicle Necron unit..." can be chosen and further "That unit immediately phases out from its current position and 'disembarks' from the Monolith's portal." so "the move" clearly references the unit's move, not the Monolith's move.

Kevin949 wrote: There's nothing in the rules stating that an embarked unit that has to make a fall back move causes the vehicle to have to follow the same rules.

TBH there's nothing in the rules at all that addresses what happens if an embarked unit has to make a fall back move. (for example a unit of 4 models, one of which suffers a gets-hot! wound and the unit fails morale)

Kevin949 wrote: You don't have to move the falling back unit prior to anything else.

This is true

Kevin949 wrote: So lets say for whatever reason you have a unit in a vehicle and suddenly that embarked unit failed a morale check and has to run, but the vehicle has moved at all, what do you do?

As above, there is no clear answer

Kevin949 wrote: The units are not 'embarking' so they're not breaking any voluntary movement rules.

But the rules says they phase out and 'disembark'. How can they 'disembark' if they never 'embarked'? Not saying that the dimensional corrider makes them 'embark' into the monolith, because the monolith is not a transport, so no unit may embark in or on it. See the problem?

Kevin949 wrote: There is really no rule being broken here, that I can see. In fact, the wording in fall back says they move 2d6" toward your table edge instead of moving normally, so in this situation you would still be required to make the 2d6" fall back move since "moving normally" in this situation is "not moving at all due to disembarking rules".

I see them as potentially breaking 2 rules.

1-They have not moved 2D6". Even if the Monolith is that far away, they have not rolled any dice to move.

2-They must move directly towards their table edge. So unless the Monolith is directly between the unit and their table edge, they are not moving as the rules say they must.

I understand the "if they disembark they must have been embarked" but it simply isn't the case. You can't embark on a vehicle that has no transport capacity and the 'disembark' notation in the rule is a simple way to clarify placement in the situation of using the corridor.

You're correct, the unit hasn't moved 2d6", yet. It comes down to what I said before, normally they couldn't move after disembarking from a vehicle that moved (or counted as moving) but fall back moves are done instead of moving normally, so they "should" still move 2d6" toward the boards edge.

The words "the move" are ambiguous in this situation since it's not clearly defined. "The Move" could simply be referring to the use of the corridor. Yes, it could also refer to the units movement as well but in this specific case the unit is not the one executing any move during this turn, so until the player chooses to activate them they haven't done anything this turn yet. I'm still of the opinion that they should and must take their 2d6 move toward the edge after the fact but I personally see nothing stopping them from being teleported.

Now, would this fly in a tournament? Probably not. Is this in the spirit of the game and the rules? No, I don't think it is. But it *is* somewhat of a rules loophole that could be exploited. Though something like this could get you labeled as TFG at your LGS or you might piss off some friends as a WAAC player, so use it at your discretion I guess.

i would play it as they can teleport, but have to make the 2d6" fallback move after disembarking.

I'm with Time Wizard. It's ambiguous, but it looks like probably a no, both because the Monolith teleport rules contradict the requirement of the fallback rules to keep falling back, and because generally a unit Falling Back is only allowed to move in the direction it's falling back.

If CSMs lashed the falling back unit, would they be immune to it?

Every single time GW has ruled on somewhat similar situations, they have ruled against a falling back unit being teleported, including the previous iteration of the Necron Codex.

This even applies to their ruling on the Grey Knight Summoning power, which just like the Monolith is a different unit that teleports the Falling Back unit (and its a no there too).

So even the powers that let you just remove the unit from the table and redeploy them have always been ruled as not being allowed to be used on a Falling Back unit either.


In short,

When a unit is falling back, it must make a fall back move. If you have a special rule, even one generated by another unit, that would disrupt this, then you cannot utilize this rule on the falling back unit. Now, if the falling back unit wants to make an additional move, like running, then that's fine but just must be done in the fall back direction as well.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Basimpo wrote:If CSMs lashed the falling back unit, would they be immune to it?

Per the FAQ, they would have to be lashed in their fall back direction.

yakface wrote:
Every single time GW has ruled on somewhat similar situations, they have ruled against a falling back unit being teleported, including the previous iteration of the Necron Codex.

This even applies to their ruling on the Grey Knight Summoning power, which just like the Monolith is a different unit that teleports the Falling Back unit (and its a no there too).

So even the powers that let you just remove the unit from the table and redeploy them have always been ruled as not being allowed to be used on a Falling Back unit either.


In short,

When a unit is falling back, it must make a fall back move. If you have a special rule, even one generated by another unit, that would disrupt this, then you cannot utilize this rule on the falling back unit. Now, if the falling back unit wants to make an additional move, like running, then that's fine but just must be done in the fall back direction as well.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Basimpo wrote:If CSMs lashed the falling back unit, would they be immune to it?

Per the FAQ, they would have to be lashed in their fall back direction.

To be fair, yak, the old necron FAQ ruled against a veil of darkness being used (don't remember if it ever stated anything about the monolith) and The Summoning power is fundamentally different from the monolith, from what I can tell. Now I'm not saying I disagree with you or with how a ruling from GW would come down, but I personally still stand by my previous opinion and outlook on the matter.

Arguments for The Summoning working on a unit Falling Back would be identical to those for a Monolith working on a unit Falling Back. It's not the unit moving, but another unit teleporting the unit. GW still doesn't allow it.

Mannahnin wrote:Arguments for The Summoning working on a unit Falling Back would be identical to those for a Monolith working on a unit Falling Back. It's not the unit moving, but another unit teleporting the unit. GW still doesn't allow it.

I understand that. But the summoning appears to be more of a selective deep strike ability, or utilizes the deep strike rules similar to the veil of the darkness. So they're still two very different things, Summoning and Dimensional Corridor.

Again though, I could only imagine it would be ruled by GW (and TO's) that it would not work/be allowed.

Kevin949 wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Arguments for The Summoning working on a unit Falling Back would be identical to those for a Monolith working on a unit Falling Back. It's not the unit moving, but another unit teleporting the unit. GW still doesn't allow it.

I understand that. But the summoning appears to be more of a selective deep strike ability, or utilizes the deep strike rules similar to the veil of the darkness. So they're still two very different things, Summoning and Dimensional Corridor.

Yes and no. One uses DS mechanics, one 'disembarks' from Monolith. But as far as Fall Back moves are concerned both have exactly same amount of restrictions for choosing the target unit written in Codex. Summoning has been obviously FAQ'd and as 6th is coming, there won't be any more FAQ's for 5th.

edit: added the part in italics

Luide wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Arguments for The Summoning working on a unit Falling Back would be identical to those for a Monolith working on a unit Falling Back. It's not the unit moving, but another unit teleporting the unit. GW still doesn't allow it.

I understand that. But the summoning appears to be more of a selective deep strike ability, or utilizes the deep strike rules similar to the veil of the darkness. So they're still two very different things, Summoning and Dimensional Corridor.

Yes and no. One uses DS mechanics, one 'disembarks' from Monolith. But as far as Fall Back moves are concerned both have exactly same amount of restrictions written in Codex. Summoning has been obviously FAQ'd and as 6th is coming, there won't be any more FAQ's for 5th.

What restrictions would that be for disembarking?

I meant restrictions for choosing the unit to be the target of the power/ability.

Luide wrote:I meant restrictions for choosing the unit to be the target of the power/ability.

But that's just it, the Summoning was FAQ'd to not allow it, sure, but there's no restriction anywhere about a falling back unit disembarking from a vehicle, and through the rules loopholes you could still easily get the 2d6 fall back move.

The Summoning power was probably FAQ'd to not be allowed because utilizing DS rules does count as movement.

I'm just saying, this is a very WAAC/TFG move but in my perspective there is no actual rules breaking, just some slight bending.