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Asmodai wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:My Russes are Ordnance-throwers, so secondary / other weapons don't matter. My Hellhounds & Chimeras usually only move 6" and shoot. And my Bassies don't move. So everything is about the same.

To me, it seems like it would totally kill the role of the Chimera as an IFV advancing beside the troops and providing covering fire for them.

Not really. I'll go from 2 HBs & PMHS to 1 HB & PMHS, so it's not so huge. Guardsmen are still going to need their Chimeras for mobility and survivability.

Likewise I always liked the Hellhound because it was a fun tank to use. You could run it up the board and flame down enemy troops. Under 5th (as rumoured anyway) it will just be another static pillbox. At that rate, I might as well just take another Russ or Basilisk.

That presumes you haven't filled all 3 Heavy slots. Even under the new rules, you can still move 6" and fire the Inferno Cannon & PMHS.

Guard benefits from this rules in other ways - e.g. the new blast rules - but it seems like the competitive builds will very much be a big spam of infantry platoons supported by big tanks with much less of a role for Chimeras, Storm Troopers, Techpriests, Hellhounds, and other favorite units of mine. It's not bad per se, but I think it's a sad thing when an army gets shoehorned into only a couple competitive builds.

OTOH, Guard have a pretty outdated Codex. I'm hoping that the Guard get a new-style update after Planetstrike, so we can have our Valkyries for Fast Skimmer Transport.

the only thing missing from it are the pictures and it reaks of gw's not understanding anything

force weapons just got nerfed any unit that is immune to instant death cannot be killed by a force weapon.... all you nids players can start partying you will rule the battle field from hear on out

With the shoot through area terrain, it does say that terrain can block LOS if it is tall enough. So a forest is going to block LOS, but a level 1 series of sandbags or high grass, then why is it unreasonable to shoot past it?

It still seems that, depending on what you and your opponent dictate in terms of height, terrain will play mostly the same role it does now.

But if you can just shoot through terrain without worry, this does seem to balance the fact everyone can fleet, so an IG gunline has more of a chance to gun down the mass of fleeting orks.

At this point though, I think having the fleet thing is much more of an advantage.

I must say that with the new rules, it does seem pretty damn stupid that the heavier, slower tanks, can't just fire mostly everything if they aren't going full out. If a massive heavy tank isn't designed to slowly roll forward laying suppressing fire, why isn't every tank just artillery then? I more than embrace not being able to fire ordinance and other weapons in the same turn, but taking some maneuverability out of tanks is the last thing they need.

I must say I am intrigued to see how the new CC system works out with the morale modifiers, I imagine close combat is going to be a lot faster with lots of fleeing guard, tau, and orks if they get whittled down enough. I do kinda enjoy the unlimited outnumber, seems like it might be fun.

Overall, I kinda like the new rule set, although there are some serious things that doesn't sit well, the biggest to me, the new wound allocation system.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
OTOH, Guard have a pretty outdated Codex. I'm hoping that the Guard get a new-style update after Planetstrike, so we can have our Valkyries for Fast Skimmer Transport.

I'll agree with you on that. I'm also hoping that Tech-Priests get their rules cleaned up (retinue not counting as wargear, maybe not taking up a slot ala DA's Techmarines).

I disagree that 1 ML, 1HB + 1PMHS ==> 1HB + 1PMHS isn't a major change. Assuming you have the PMHS you're losing about 40% of your firepower. If you don't have that upgrade, you're losing half.

The HB or ML are nice because of their S5/6. That really helps them put some wounds on Orks and Marines, where the PMHS struggles a bit. I'm not going to go into mathhammer, but I think it's pretty clear that it's a significant reduction.

The Chimera also loses mobility since it's not that much faster than a Guardsman - 12" max a turn vs. average of 9.5" a turn. If they both shoot while they advance then they're both confined to 6". Given that the Chimera is slightly more than the cost of the squad it transports (usually) and it doesn't hold an objective, I think that it will increasingly be phased out in favour of more Infantry Platoons.

the new vehicle damage charts are absolutely ridiculous.. you have to add this subtract this add this yet again oh dont forget you have to subtract for this then add your result

lunatics running the asylum

Overall, I kinda like the new rule set, although there are some serious things that doesn't sit well, the biggest to me, the new wound allocation system.

Yeah, huge change there, and a major red flag for me.

It's not really that I think you should be able to hide special weapons in a squad. That's not "realistic" nor is it necessary for the game to work. If you built a game system that didn't allow for it, that's perfectly fine.

However... The fact that GW thinks they can turn that rule on its head without totally screwing up game balance... Well, it's a clear demonstration that they don't understand rules design, or the limits of their own playtesting capability.

It'd be one thing if every army had special weapons in squads, and now those weapons go away at roughly the same rate as everyone else. Whatever, still balanced. But that's NOT what they have. The system has armies that depend on those special weapons (Marines, Guard, Orks, etc. etc.) and those that don't (Tyranids, Necrons). By making the change they have, they SIGNIFICANTLY alter the balance of the game, and not in any uniform way that makes sense. It's an across the board change that helps armies that don't need it (Tyranids) and hurts armies that need help (Guard).

Again, it's not that this sort of system is inherantly wrong, it's just that making it at this point in time demonstrates a total lack of clarity on GW's part.

I won't even start on the insanity I've heard about target priority and screening, but I guess it's back to 3rd Edition when I could castle up my Necrons and win every game without even paying attention.

All we can do is cross our fingers and hope that they sort all of this out before unleasing it on us. I've heard a few good ideas as well, so it's not all bad, but the general attitude seems to be one of poking and hoping rather than actually knowing how to design a coherant system and how to maintain the playability of a rules base that is imprved and updated at a glacial pace.

Just received this email

Hello AdamSouza,

We at 40kTerra have obtained the Pre-Release version of the new 5th edition rulebook. We will be constantly revealing new things that are coming to the new rulebook.


Example preview:

Snipers provide Rending + Pinning

Rending - Roll to hit the same, on a wounding '6' it is AP 2
Against vehicles = If penetration is a roll of 6 - further D3 penetration is given.
This is exactly the same in CC and Shooting.

Poison Weapons - Wounds on 4+, gets re-roll if failed.

Gets Hot Rule - Only gets hot on a 1, even if rapid fire.

Pinning - A Unit PINNED gets +1 cover. If the unit is not in cover they get 6+ cover save.



Check it out at www.40kterra.com
Under the Rumors and News section.


Ikarus

On my way to check it out now

EDIT: Direct link to info is here: http://www.40kterra.com/forums/f41/5th-edition-preleak-info-giveout-4708.html

Things with greater than BS 5 will get roll benefits -> BS 6,7,8,9,10 possible


BALLISTIC SKILL OF 6 OR BETTER
Very rarely a model may have a BS of 6 or
even more. If a model has a BS of 6 or higher,
it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 to hit
with ranged attacks. The second roll has
normally a lower chance of hitting, and the
number needed is given in the chart below in
italics after the slash.

BS 6+ will get a re-roll to hit if they get a to hit roll of a '1' BUT, the 2nd chance has less likely part to hit.
BS 6 - Hits on 2+, if Misses 2nd chance on 6+
BS 7 - Hits on 2+, if Misses 2nd chance on 5+
BS 8 - Hits on 2+, if Misses 2nd chance on 4+
BS 9 - Hits on 2+, if Misses 2nd chance on 3+
BS 10 - Hits on 2+, if Misses 2nd chance on 2+


For example, a model with BS 7 fires a shot
with its plasma pistol. It rolls a 1 and so it can
re-roll the dice (and conveniently the weapon
does not Get Hot!). This time, however it
won’t hit on a 2, but rather on a 5 (and a
second one would mean its weapon has
overheated).
If a model has a special rule that already
confers it a re-roll to hit (like a master-crafted
weapon, for example), then that re-roll takes
precedence and the chances to hit on the reroll
are the same as the first shot, regardless
of the firer’s BS.

Tanks -
Combat speed - Vehicles moving up to 6'' considered as Combat Speed - 1 Gun allowed to shoot
Cruising Speed - Vehicles move up to 12'' considered as Cruising Speed - No gun Allowed.
Flat Out Speed - Vehicles move up to 18'' (Given to Fast Vehicles - no 24'' movement)


Fast Vehicles -

Can shoot all at Combat Speed
Can shoot 1 at Cruising Speed
Can shoot nothing at Flat Out Speed


Skimmers -
Vehicle Ignores Terrain
Vehicle must move at Cruising Speed or Flat Out to get OBSCURED bonus

Obscured - If tank is obscured it gets a 4+ sv to ignore Glance or Penetration results.


Walkers-
Can shoot one gun at Combat Speed



Defensive Weapons - Str 4 or under


Pintle & Turret Mounted Weapons get 360 Degress LoS
Sponson = 180 Degrees LoS
Hull = 45 Degrees LoS

AP1 - Adds +1 to Damage table results
AP 0 - Subtracts -1 to Damabe Table results



Single Universal Vehicle Damage Table -
1 or less : Crew Shaken
2 : Crew Stunned
3 : DAMAGED -Weapon Destroyed
4 : DAMAGED - Immobilized
5 : DESTROYED - Vehicle
6 : DESTROYED - Vehicle Explodes (d6'' Str 3 AP - explosion)

Glancing = - 2
AP - = -1
AP 1 - = + 1
Opened Top + 1

Affects on Passengers -
Passengers on a Vehicle Shaken ed - Crew no Affected
Passengers on a Vehicle Stunned - Can not Disembark
Passengers on a Vehicle Damaged 4 - No Effect
Passengers on a Vehicle Destroyed 5 - Disembarks Vehicle + Pinning test
Passengers on a Vehicle Destroyed 6 - Disembarks Vehicles + Suffers Str 4 AP - Hit + Pinning test



Assault Against Vehicles - If vehicles move in this speed then ->
Stationary - Auto Hit
Combat Speed - 4+
Cruising Speed - 6+

Snipers provide Rending + Pinning

Rending - Roll to hit the same, on a wounding '6' it is AP 2
Against vehicles = If penetration is a roll of 6 - further D3 penetration is given.
This is exactly the same in CC and Shooting.

Poison Weapons - Wounds on 4+, gets re-roll if failed.

Gets Hot Rule - Only gets hot on a 1, even if rapid fire.

Pinning - A Unit PINNED gets +1 cover. If the unit is not in cover they get 6+ cover save.

RUN! - New Infantry Rules
In their Shooting phase units may choose not to fire and run instead, immediately moving D6” inches
(a rather popular choice for units that do not have ranged weaponry!).
Running movement is not affected by difficult terrain – it is always a flat D6” (but models running
through dangerous terrain must test as normal).
Units that run cannot assault in the following Assault phase.

Scoring units
Normally a campaigning army employs the squads
making up the bulk of its fighting force to dig in
and consolidate any territorial gains, while the
most specialised units forge ahead to engage the
enemy with lightning-fast assaults and massive
armoured trusts.

The concept of scoring units is central to two of
the Standard Missions, which are won or lost by
capturing and holding more objectives than the
enemy, and only scoring units may do that.
An army’s scoring units are all the units that come
from its Troops allowance. There are only three
exceptions when a unit of Troops does not count
as scoring:
• if it is falling back at the end of the game
• if it is a vehicle
• if it has a special rule specifying it never counts
as scoring.

STANDARD MISSIONS CHART
D6 Roll Mission
1-2 Recon
3-4 Take and Hold
5-6 Total Annihilation

Ikarus promise to update daily with new tidbits.

So people are now calling the leaked PDF from last summer a pre-release version of the rulebook. If it is so it is more than likely that I'll take five years off 40K and spend it on other games. I've never seen a game take so many leaps backwards as 40K is taking.

Some of us like 2nd edition.

I generally don't play 40k competitively, so as a more casual player, I don't think the new rules are going to keep me from occassionally attending a local tourney or playing as much as I can.

If the leaked pdf is true, I'll still play and hopefully still have fun, although if it just takes too long, house rules and using 4th edition are still viable options.

A lot of rules seem fine to me, but yah there are a few that really suck and I hope this isn't the final version like the ork leak was, but if it is, I'll deal. But then I suppose if I was a more competitive player I might be pissed as hell.

The "leaked" pdf is from summer?

According to the metadata.
That gives me a vague hope that some of the more ridiculous ideas got dumped in playtesting.
It's fun to compare and contrast how wizards are dealing with 4th edition D'n'D to how GW are dealing with 5th edition 40K in terms of transparency and advertising.

Anyone notice that the rules pertaining to who gets to fight, anyone within 2 inches at the start of the combat even if there is no one left, and that there are no more 2 inch kill radii, means that powerfist equipped terminators become absolutely awesome in combat. They will always get to swing now. And they will not just kill out their kill box but they should wipe through units.

Cogito

Apparently the PDF is 12 months old; as for how accurate it is...

It is difficult to believe that nothing would have changed in 12 months.

Im not liking those vhechle rules. Walkers can only fire once when moving? dreadnaughts suddenly seem to have lost their value to me. Also some tanks (Especially the FW krieg - malcador etc) look great and conjour up images of trundling forward firing guns supporting troops, won't happen like that in the game! I edjoyed 2nd edition but it didn't flow as well. Tanks in my mind shouldn't be pill boxes, If they are I'd prefer to stick to heavy weapon squads myself. And wound allocation before saves....took a while to get used to this changing to the current but now I'm used to it I'd rather not go back. It makes more sense but slows down the game too much. The only thing I miss from 2nd is the character, especially the wackyness of the orks, the new ones look better but they've lost the comidy. It is nice to see things like the shokk attack comeing back but it's the character that got me into the game, then the rules. Having played now for years I think the current ruleset is very playable, it does have a few faults but it doesn't need the sort of changes that the rumours are talking about. Some of it is very good (sniper rifles etc) but get rid of the pill boxes, the 'running' (I'd say this is the maximum speed alllowed (6") why walk over a battlefield as standard pace when you're being shot at? Sometime yes you may want to go slower, so go slower and take atvantage of the new get down, but don't allow every one to fleet. how fast will that make orks with the waagh rule? Orks are descibbed as a huge wave of green, not a supper fast moving alien! Sorry, bit of a rant there. Personally I think I'm gonna stick with the current rules if some of these changes go ahead.

It also concerns me that some seem like quite big changes. Can't think of any examples but I'd put money of them not being in line with several rules in codexes, or some special rules don't work - anyone fancy waiting 3-4 years for them to fix the codex?

Therion wrote:

Never mind the fact that templates will wreak them now. IG with three pie plates a turn will do wonders, whirlwinds, etc.

Haha. Who do you think you're kidding? Flamers aren't any more effective against Orks than before unless you're talking about units like Burna Boyz. Are you trying to make yourself believe Orks aren't the be all end all, just so that all of our upcoming massacre victories with Orks would taste a little better? Sure, Whirlwinds are going to cause more casualties than before when they shoot. Guess what, GW has us covered. Firstly, there's no area terrain anymore that would block los so the Whirlwinds can be shaken from anywhere. Secondly, everyone is running so the Whirlwinds won't get to fire as many times as before untill its already too late. Lastly, everyone can now get as many units of the bona fide Wolf Scouts as they like in order to shake/destroy the ordnance batteries hiding in the backfields. The reason you're not worried about tanks anymore is because there will be so many Orks on every table that it will put the O&G WFB armies to shame, and the S9 power klaws will smash through the rear armours like the tanks werent even there since cover doesn't work in close combat.

I said templates, that means Ordinance. AV14 is very hard to deal with at range for Orks now, not even counting them in cover, which makes it even harder. Three pie plates will put large dents in this unstoppable Ork horde you keep talking about. And now that the KFF Mek isn't untargetable anymore, you can concentrate on a squad and make him run away with your pie plates.

And you keep going on about area terrain. If you somehow assume that all of a sudden tables of 40k will be near clear killing fields for guns with cover saves, you're being completely unrealistic. People will discuss terrain just like now before the game and there will be pieces that block LOS, pieces that don't but give good cover saves (4+), and the like.

I don't need any kind of statements to make myself feel better about using Orks. I already decided not to build the Shoota Horde, because after playing with it for a while using my proxy models, I'm just not going to bother building and painting 100+ shootas just so I can be a dick at a few tournaments. I'm going to run Kult of Speed mainly, and a mix of footsloggers. And despite what you think about 5th, the horde Orks will be far from unbeatable. They'll be good sure, but I doubt they'll be as dominant as Mech Eldar or Godzilla now, as long as people build their armies well.

I'm talking about AV14 being bad against regular armies because it will be. 1/54 chance for a lascannon to kill one behind some terrain, and you find it justifiable because it only fires that amazing pie plate you keep talking about in another sentence plus a couple other heavy weapons, and does not tank shock like Falcons did. Did you play 40K in the third edition? If you did you probably remember people running three or four Defilers per army that were all hull down behind the smallest terrain pieces one can imagine. It was hard as hell to kill them or even stop them from shooting, and nobody liked it and everyone was happy that they were nerfed. I guess it's fine now, as long as you play Orks. You can always take so many models and so many scoring units that the enemy won't have a chance in hell. Even if the Orks and their enemy both destroy eachother the Orks will win since they will be worth much less KPs than their opponents. Justice for all.

First off, I said it's justifiable because while it puts out offensive power, it's not as bad as "unkillable Falcons" because they can't score anymore, they can't drop off specialists without any risk to the player, and they can't play a dumb ass VP denial game. That's why AV14 becoming so survivable at long range in 5th is OK, where as Falcons are a problem now.

And as I pointed, there are ways to neutralize those AV14 tanks, using infiltrators/scouts. You're the one who seems stuck on a duplicity here. Are they "unkillable" or are they super easy to neutralize because of scouts or fast moving Melta Carriers?

You talk about the Ork Horde being unstoppable, except at the same time you're talking about 3 Pie Plate tossers being hard to neutralize even when they're AV12 like defilers that are hull-down. How is this Ork horde going to shrug off 2-3 turns of shelling from pie plates?

All we need now is Codex Space Wolves having a special rule saying they can disembark and assault from Rhinos moving max speed so that everyone can take six squads of Blood Claws in Rhinos, and we're happily back in third edition (although a slightly more slowed version of 3rd ed).

So rushing with assault troops and having little risk is bad if you're in 3rd Ed and playing Marines, but it's just fine and dandy if you're using Falcons and Harlies in 4th?

I must say the introduction of 4+ and 3+ cover saves will make MEQ much less attractive than ever before. Why would you pay for armour if you can get invulnerable saves for free?

Because cover won't be everywhere you need it to be? Because maybe the rest of their stat lines make them pretty good? Because Marines in the new edition are going to play drastically different than they do in 4th? And maybe, just maybe, it would be nice if playing a MEQ style army wasn't so appealing that a large percentage of the player base went with them? Or that other armies could compete with them without resorting to "Godzilla" or "Holofield Spam"?

I said templates, that means Ordinance. AV14 is very hard to deal with at range for Orks now

AV14 is very hard or impossible for everyone to deal with at range. Do you even understand what 1/54 means? That's for one vehicle inside some trees. Orks however probably won't have to bother with ranged weapons at all.

They'll be good sure, but I doubt they'll be as dominant as Mech Eldar or Godzilla now, as long as people build their armies well.

Both of those armies have been doing well but they haven't been nearly as dominant as for example Chaos Space Marines were under their previous codex with Siren Princes, Iron Warriors, Daemonbombs and whatnot. IIRC the UK GT or any of its qualifying heats has never been won by Tyranids, and the last time the Eldar won the UK GT final was with Ulthwé Seer Councils. I could be wrong, but the point is that they aren't nearly as dominant or popular as the Dakka metagame would like to suggest.

specialists without any risk to the player, and they can't play a dumb ass VP denial game.

What exactly is wrong with VP denial? It's an interesting aspect of the game. WHFB for example has plenty of it, and in both games it usually means that faster armies with weaker killing power are trying to compete by grabbing mission objectives and preserving units. Those Harlequin specialists you talk about cost nearly 30 points each (t3 models with no armour saves) once you factor in the shadowseer, and their transport costs 25 points less than a Monolith. How imbalanced. You can get 60 Slugga Boyz at the price of one skimmer and six space clowns.

And as I pointed, there are ways to neutralize those AV14 tanks, using infiltrators/scouts. You're the one who seems stuck on a duplicity here. Are they "unkillable" or are they super easy to neutralize because of scouts or fast moving Melta Carriers?

Some have ways to deal with them (neutralise is too strong of a word), some don't. That's what I was saying all along.

How is this Ork horde going to shrug off 2-3 turns of shelling from pie plates?

2 turns if the Orks don't get the first turn. Easily. You're also forgetting the kill point system. Ork infiltrators bust a Whirlwind, and now the Marines have to kill 60 Slugga Boyz to get the points back. It just isn't going to happen.

So rushing with assault troops and having little risk is bad if you're in 3rd Ed and playing Marines, but it's just fine and dandy if you're using Falcons and Harlies in 4th?

Comparing third edition assault style (outrageously tough Rhinos once they're smoked) where everything assaults on turn two or three, with the delicate scalpel that is Mech Eldar, is just ludicrous. If the Harlequins could assault from moving Falcons you might have a point, but alas, you don't.

Because cover won't be everywhere you need it to be? Because maybe the rest of their stat lines make them pretty good? Because Marines in the new edition are going to play drastically different than they do in 4th? And maybe, just maybe, it would be nice if playing a MEQ style army wasn't so appealing that a large percentage of the player base went with them? Or that other armies could compete with them without resorting to "Godzilla" or "Holofield Spam"?

Cover will be everywhere you need it to be. All of the expensive and static models will find themselves plenty of cover for some free invulnerable saves. Isn't it great that a six point model can get the same armour save as a 30 point model by standing inside some terrain? No, it really isn't. Terrain should only be a negative hit modifier.

Everything is going to play slightly different than before, not just Marines. What makes me really sad about your approach to the fifth edition is that hopelessly optimistic fanboys like you always think that when some old cheese is eradicated the game automatically becomes better. Not necessarily. The game should be updated in smaller patches instead of massive system shutdowns and reboots for that to happen. If you're still playing in five years you'll be replying to these same kind of threads telling people you want a change to the "troop choice spam" and that people should be able to win without resorting to "running infantry hordes".

If you made cover saves into negative to hit modifiers it would simply benefit SMs even more.

Therion already covered some stuff, but here's my opinion on the rest:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:
I said templates, that means Ordinance. AV14 is very hard to deal with at range for Orks now, not even counting them in cover, which makes it even harder. Three pie plates will put large dents in this unstoppable Ork horde you keep talking about. And now that the KFF Mek isn't untargetable anymore, you can concentrate on a squad and make him run away with your pie plates.

Yes I'm sure that spacing out your guys in a line will make pie plates very effective. Unless you're talking about some weird rule, the pdf clearly uses the word "unit" in all references to blast/barrage weapons. Pie plates won't be killing models from multiple units and hurray, 4-5 models killed from every template.

I don't need any kind of statements to make myself feel better about using Orks. I already decided not to build the Shoota Horde, because after playing with it for a while using my proxy models, I'm just not going to bother building and painting 100+ shootas just so I can be a dick at a few tournaments. I'm going to run Kult of Speed mainly, and a mix of footsloggers. And despite what you think about 5th, the horde Orks will be far from unbeatable. They'll be good sure, but I doubt they'll be as dominant as Mech Eldar or Godzilla now, as long as people build their armies well.

Yes I'm sure that since you say you won't make a retardedly powerful army, everyone else won't either.

First off, I said it's justifiable because while it puts out offensive power, it's not as bad as "unkillable Falcons" because they can't score anymore, they can't drop off specialists without any risk to the player, and they can't play a dumb ass VP denial game. That's why AV14 becoming so survivable at long range in 5th is OK, where as Falcons are a problem now.

You said you were making KoS, so you should have some trukks and bikes and stuff. Why aren't these guys covering the back door of the falcon?

You talk about the Ork Horde being unstoppable, except at the same time you're talking about 3 Pie Plate tossers being hard to neutralize even when they're AV12 like defilers that are hull-down. How is this Ork horde going to shrug off 2-3 turns of shelling from pie plates?

You'll be making conga lines of orks.

Because cover won't be everywhere you need it to be? Because maybe the rest of their stat lines make them pretty good? Because Marines in the new edition are going to play drastically different than they do in 4th? And maybe, just maybe, it would be nice if playing a MEQ style army wasn't so appealing that a large percentage of the player base went with them? Or that other armies could compete with them without resorting to "Godzilla" or "Holofield Spam"?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but even in 3rd edition KoS and tyranid swarms were pretty viable.

Therion wrote:
AV14 is very hard or impossible for everyone to deal with at range. Do you even understand what 1/54 means? That's for one vehicle inside some trees. Orks however probably won't have to bother with ranged weapons at all.

So AV14 is as resistant to damage from a Lascannon, as long as it's in cover, as a Falcon is now basically all the time.

Orks can't deal with AV14 at range, but we'll need the firepower elsewhere. I doubt you'll see people stop using Lootas.

Therion wrote:
Both of those armies have been doing well but they haven't been nearly as dominant as for example Chaos Space Marines were under their previous codex with Siren Princes, Iron Warriors, Daemonbombs and whatnot. IIRC the UK GT or any of its qualifying heats has never been won by Tyranids, and the last time the Eldar won the UK GT final was with Ulthwé Seer Councils. I could be wrong, but the point is that they aren't nearly as dominant or popular as the Dakka metagame would like to suggest.

They sure as hell seem to do fine last I saw. This coming UKGT is the first one where Mech Eldar can run around without worrying about Iron Warriors. If you hadn't noticed how many Mech Eldar armies have been doing in the Heats then I suggest you look at the results sheets. So many Skimmer lists have been present at the UKGT's that people are taking Necrons because it's a foil to Skimmer lists.

And Godzilla (along with Nids in general) have been doing very well out here in the US.

What exactly is wrong with VP denial? It's an interesting aspect of the game. WHFB for example has plenty of it, and in both games it usually means that faster armies with weaker killing power are trying to compete by grabbing mission objectives and preserving units. Those Harlequin specialists you talk about cost nearly 30 points each (t3 models with no armour saves) once you factor in the shadowseer, and their transport costs 25 points less than a Monolith. How imbalanced. You can get 60 Slugga Boyz at the price of one skimmer and six space clowns.

Because having a game where my opponent does nothing but not engage and runs away until about the last turn when the specialists come out to get a VP advantage around when they will face little to no retaliation and then the tanks that can't be hurt run off to score isn't exactly a "fun game".

All while the rest of the army hides and the only targets are Holofield Tanks that you just have be incredibly lucky to kill, or you get no points AND they Score.

Some have ways to deal with them (neutralise is too strong of a word), some don't. That's what I was saying all along.

Which army is going to have a hard time neutralizing them? Necrons can keep them from shooting with just one glance that gets through. It's not hard to get a few glances off when your entire army can do it. Marines can get fast moving Meltas or deepstrikers, Chaos gets infiltrating Chosen, or deepstriking Combi-Melta termies, or Oblits. Eldar get Fire Dragons in Wave Serpents or Falcons, or Hawks. Dark Eldar will need help, unless they just mass Lances, one glance keeps a pie plate from flying at you.

And of course the only armies with AV14 that will sit in cover is IG, who need SOMETHING to be good. It's nice to see their main tanks, which are supposed to be an advantage, actually be a threat, instead of the Joke that they are now. Land Raiders need to deliver troops to be very effective, and Battlewagons need to be close to throw their pie plates, so using cover all the time isn't going to be the easiest thing in the world. And then there's the Monolith, who generally won't be in cover, or can't because it's a skimmer. It'll be a beast, especially if you have to shoot it through something that gives it a cover save, but that's what you have to do. Lascannons, Railguns, S9 Spears, they need a 6 to get through it now to be effective anyway.

2 turns if the Orks don't get the first turn. Easily. You're also forgetting the kill point system. Ork infiltrators bust a Whirlwind, and now the Marines have to kill 60 Slugga Boyz to get the points back. It just isn't going to happen.

In one mission, if the Infiltrators actually show up on the table edge that lets them get to the whirlwind (it's random after all). Or they spend 265 Points for the special character and his squad, who can then be killed by surrounding marines that they can't assault because they took out the Whirlwind. And whatever that infiltrator squad is for the Orks, it still gives up just as many KP as the Whirlwind they came in to kill just gave up.

Comparing third edition assault style (outrageously tough Rhinos once they're smoked) where everything assaults on turn two or three, with the delicate scalpel that is Mech Eldar, is just ludicrous. If the Harlequins could assault from moving Falcons you might have a point, but alas, you don't.

Calling Mech Eldar a "delicate scalpel" is what's ludicrous. You hide and turbo boost till you can come out late game and get ahead, or just score because your tanks are near impossible to destroy and can move 24 - 36" in a turn.

The difference between dumb rush armies in 3rd and Mech Eldar now is that you have to wait a turn before you can assault (which can be mitigated by the fact that your stupid tanks shrug off almost all firepower), and that you can just grab objectives at the end. How exactly is it a "delicate scalpel" to use such high speeds and resilience to just run away until the end of the game?

None of the really good "competitive" armies are really delicate scalpels, they generally are pretty dumb, and just become that much harder when played by someone who isn't brainless.

Cover will be everywhere you need it to be. All of the expensive and static models will find themselves plenty of cover for some free invulnerable saves. Isn't it great that a six point model can get the same armour save as a 30 point model by standing inside some terrain? No, it really isn't. Terrain should only be a negative hit modifier.

If cover is setup fairly, it sure as hell won't be. Boyz will still need a KFF to get their boyz where they need it, and now with a tank on a hill with some ordinance or a lot of fire, can force that to go away. And if they're advancing through this terrain, then they're not moving that fast.

And if you bring enough guns to the party, you can shoot down that first line, buying you more time to shoot the horde. And if less terrain Blocks LOS, then you should be able to shoot more if you deploy right.

Everything is going to play slightly different than before, not just Marines. What makes me really sad about your approach to the fifth edition is that hopelessly optimistic fanboys like you always think that when some old cheese is eradicated the game automatically becomes better. Not necessarily. The game should be updated in smaller patches instead of massive system shutdowns and reboots for that to happen. If you're still playing in five years you'll be replying to these same kind of threads telling people you want a change to the "troop choice spam" and that people should be able to win without resorting to "running infantry hordes".

I'm a fanboy now? I'm just not blatantly hating the new edition. I'd like to think that from my posts I'm about as neutral as you can get on GW. I certainly am not too happy about having an Ork army that just flat out BLEW because of the 4th Ed rules and all the wonderful new codex's and their lovely abilities that made a mockery of my 9 year old Codex.

All I know is that I read the rules and I'm generally happy about a lot of them. Sure things need cleaning up like the LOS rules for models, but I can just hope for the best.

We'll see how this goes when the rules are released anyway, I'm not worried.

stonefox wrote:
Yes I'm sure that spacing out your guys in a line will make pie plates very effective. Unless you're talking about some weird rule, the pdf clearly uses the word "unit" in all references to blast/barrage weapons. Pie plates won't be killing models from multiple units and hurray, 4-5 models killed from every template.

Space them in a Konga Line? Reading the PDF section on blasts, it even talks about how the scatter can make it hit your own troops, or other models out of range/LOS. It clearly says that any MODEL that has its base partially touched by the template is hurt.

And I'll be amazed to see a Konga Line of 30 Orks marching straight across a table. You will have to make a second or third row to deploy them, and since the "Squad" is in LOS, you can place the template in the center of this squad, and you don't even need to have the center hole over a model anymore, so you can set it up so you get a nice clump. And if it is this giant horde, spaced at max coherency, then the guys in the OTHER squads, are going to be at the other table edge based on deployment.

And lord help the player who has that many models in a table quarters mission. One of the reasons I DON'T want to play the horde after play testing it for these past few months has been cleanse. Good lord that sucks, especially if your opponent has templates NOW, let alone when all partials are hits.

Yes I'm sure that since you say you won't make a retardedly powerful army, everyone else won't either.

Given that slowed powerful armies exist no matter what happens, what do you want me to say? If Orks get a slowed build like some current armies have, then that's what happens. I still don't think it will be the be-all end-all that some people do. Possibly because I see what happens when playing something similar to it now.

You said you were making KoS, so you should have some trukks and bikes and stuff. Why aren't these guys covering the back door of the falcon?

KoS is fast and by it's nature somewhat fragile. While on one hand I'm not worried about an assault of Harlequins, I generally can't hurt the Tanks anyway, and you can't "block" shots that hit your AV10 Vehicles or bikes that have small squad sizes and that wonderful LD7.

The problem with Mech Eldar is the fact that they can run off and nab objectives, and tank shock you into wonderful formations when things just don't go their way; or they want you off an objective. And the fact that unless you "get lucky" and down the tank, you're just hosed. Or maybe you haven't had the "fun" of playing Cleanse, or Secure and Control (with say, 4 tokens) vs. Mech Eldar.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but even in 3rd edition KoS and tyranid swarms were pretty viable.

I'm talking about 4th, not 3rd. Everyone bitches about how Marines and MEQ's are overplayed. Now non-MEQ troops benefit from cover greatly, and people bitch that no one will play Marines anymore. Now the biggest "non MEQ" armies, are either Godzilla, which focuses on tons of MC's with T6 and 3+ (or better) Saves, or Mech Eldar or Mech Tau, which are more about their vehicles and units with 3+ saves (generally) than they are about the rest of the army. Orks just arrived and are something that can make a strong non-MEQ style army, and there are posts on dakka about how nice it is to see a "horde army be viable".

So AV14 is as resistant to damage from a Lascannon, as long as it's in cover, as a Falcon is now basically all the time.

1/54 is resistant? You just called Falcons something that can shrug of all firepower. Three Leman Russes in cover can therefore shrug off all enemy firepower, and that's okay, because you think Imperial Guard deserve it. Great games designing.

I doubt you'll see people stop using Lootas.

Why would people use Lootas? It's not like anyone will be using skimmers, their primary target.

They sure as hell seem to do fine last I saw. This coming UKGT is the first one where Mech Eldar can run around without worrying about Iron Warriors.

Oh wow, what a painfully long period of success. One UK GT before they come crashing down to the bottom of the food chain. It must have been hard for you to endure.

Because having a game where my opponent does nothing but not engage and runs away until about the last turn when the specialists come out to get a VP advantage around when they will face little to no retaliation and then the tanks that can't be hurt run off to score isn't exactly a "fun game".

To me that sounds much more interesting than most 40K games.

Which army is going to have a hard time neutralizing them? Necrons can keep them from shooting with just one glance that gets through. It's not hard to get a few glances off when your entire army can do it. Marines can get fast moving Meltas or deepstrikers, Chaos gets infiltrating Chosen, or deepstriking Combi-Melta termies, or Oblits. Eldar get Fire Dragons in Wave Serpents or Falcons, or Hawks. Dark Eldar will need help, unless they just mass Lances, one glance keeps a pie plate from flying at you.

That's just so idiotic I don't even think you're being serious. Half of that stuff is unbelievable crap now and/or in the fifth and certainly neutralise nothing at all.

In one mission

...out of a massive three.

Calling Mech Eldar a "delicate scalpel" is what's ludicrous. You hide and turbo boost till you can come out late game and get ahead, or just score because your tanks are near impossible to destroy and can move 24 - 36" in a turn.

Cry me a river. You're fine with 1/54 tanks and completely indestructible Monoliths but you whine because 210 point av12 vehicles are actually fast. You seem traumatised by something.

If cover is setup fairly, it sure as hell won't be. Boyz will still need a KFF

And what a horrible price to pay that is. If you make conga lines and cover a measly three squads of Boyz with the KFF the price of the invulnerable save will be less than 1 point per model.

All I know is that I read the rules and I'm generally happy about a lot of them. We'll see how this goes when the rules are released anyway, I'm not worried.

The only rule that I think is an actual improvement is the clarification that ICs can join units before deployment. The rest of the stuff is just, sad. It's nothing but shifting of balance from one end to another in order to sell the type of armies and units noone had before.

Therion wrote:
1/54 is resistant? You just called Falcons something that can shrug of all firepower. Three Leman Russes in cover can therefore shrug off all enemy firepower, and that's okay, because you think Imperial Guard deserve it. Great games designing.

Except you can neutralize it with Infiltrators/deepstrikers with Meltas, infiltrators with Power Fists. Hell just get up close with a few Meltas and away it goes.

Or you can get side shots (AV12) from the AV14 vehicles that are the ones that will sit in cover. You will need to move to neutralize them, rather than now which is "take lots of Lascannons, deploy, and kill them".

And they won't score (like Falcons do now), and they don't transport squads of specialists (who also score as of now). They deny VP's but that only matters in draws, unlike almost all the time like now.

You don't see the difference?

Why would people use Lootas? It's not like anyone will be using skimmers, their primary target.

Tau skimmers are still good, as are wave serpents. In fact the only vehicle in the game that got easier to kill with the new rules are the dumb Holofield tanks.

Oh wow, what a painfully long period of success. One UK GT before they come crashing down to the bottom of the food chain. It must have been hard for you to endure.

I've been "enduring" it since the dex came out and I've had to face it. Not everyone played Iron Warriors vs. them. And it's not even a matter of not being able to beat them. I've beaten them at tournaments, it's just never a fun game even if you win. Mainly because if you win, you probably killed a tank and "got lucky".

You're talking about how unfun and stupid the game is going to be because of some other abusive list. You think the current abusive armies are fun to play against?

To me that sounds much more interesting than most 40K games.

Maybe you're playing the wrong kind of 40k then. Obviously the designers are looking to make that kind of list suck after seeing how it came to exist.

That's just so idiotic I don't even think you're being serious. Half of that stuff is unbelievable crap now and/or in the fifth and certainly neutralise nothing at all.

How are lots of Meltas up close going to not kill an AV14 tank? Even in Cover, most units that take the Meltas will take multiple in a unit, so it's generally not that hard to get the kill.

Necrons can reliably put glances on it, that stops it from shooting. And even now we're talking about Leman Russes, the only tanks that are going to sit in 4+ Cover with AV14 at long range and lob pie plates. The other AV14 tanks won't work in that scenario and can be dealt with when they're used.

In one mission

...out of a massive three.

Except that the deployment types of the mission actually drastically change how the mission will be played, so it's more variable than that. But I do want there to be more missions. Besides, in the tournaments I've played in here in the US, generally they use special missions made up by GW or by the organizers (some even come from sites like this).

Cry me a river. You're fine with 1/54 tanks and completely indestructible Monoliths but you whine because 210 point av12 vehicles are actually fast. You seem traumatised by something.

Except those tanks can be neutralized by the right weapons, or by the right units. So it's never going to be 1/54 to kill them, all the damn time, like with the current Holofield. And again, those tanks don't score, they don't hide VP's that are as crucial as they are now. And they don't transport specialists where you want them, when you want them, with little risk.

And Monoliths aren't going to be sitting in said cover most of the time (they're skimmers, they can't land in it). And you need to penetrate a Monolith now to reliably hurt it anyway. How is this going to be different?

And what makes you think that the Monolith won't have its rules changed when Necrons are redone?

If cover is setup fairly, it sure as hell won't be. Boyz will still need a KFF

And what a horrible price to pay that is. If you make conga lines and cover a measly three squads of Boyz with the KFF the price of the invulnerable save will be less than 1 point per model.

I'm not complaining about the KFF. I'm refuting the fact that you're saying "Cover will be everywhere you need it to be", which is just flat out untrue. You think all of a sudden all blocking LOS terrain is going to be gone from the game. Suddenly all non armored troops will be able to always get a great cover save no matter where they are, or where the objective they have to get to is (that their opponent can place no less).

The only rule that I think is an actual improvement is the clarification that ICs can join units before deployment. The rest of the stuff is just, sad. It's nothing but shifting of balance from one end to another in order to sell the type of armies and units noone had before.

Right, so because if you built up an army of exactly 1500 or 1750 points that was comprised of only the most broken and powerful combos so you can dominate at tournaments, then you're screwed and have to buy new armies if you want to keep using the most broken thing you can. If that's how you buy your armies, then yes, every single rules change for your codex or the main rules are going to affect your purchases. That's what happens when you build to the absolute most competitive list you can and nothing else.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Space them in a Konga Line? Reading the PDF section on blasts, it even talks about how the scatter can make it hit your own troops, or other models out of range/LOS. It clearly says that any MODEL that has its base partially touched by the template is hurt.

Correct. "In these cases hits are worked out as normal." AFAIK, you only have one target unit that you resolve hits against.

And I'll be amazed to see a Konga Line of 30 Orks marching straight across a table. You will have to make a second or third row to deploy them, and since the "Squad" is in LOS, you can place the template in the center of this squad, and you don't even need to have the center hole over a model anymore, so you can set it up so you get a nice clump. And if it is this giant horde, spaced at max coherency, then the guys in the OTHER squads, are going to be at the other table edge based on deployment.

200+ models across a 6'x1' plot: Six feet = 72", 1"base+2" separation = 24 models. 24x12" front to back = 288. If you have vehicles it will eat up some of these spots. Yeah I guess it'd be unfortunate for those 6 models wrapped around and placed behind the first row. Even placed to get max models, you'd get maybe 6 models under there, 4" separation+3x1" bases across.

Given that slowed powerful armies exist no matter what happens, what do you want me to say? If Orks get a slowed build like some current armies have, then that's what happens. I still don't think it will be the be-all end-all that some people do. Possibly because I see what happens when playing something similar to it now.

It seemed like you felt justified in defending your position by saying "I wouldn't..." and now add "but others will." I'm not saying it (footsloggers) is wrong, but dude, you just tried to say that it's not that bad since you won't do it yourself.

KoS is fast and by it's nature somewhat fragile. While on one hand I'm not worried about an assault of Harlequins, I generally can't hurt the Tanks anyway, and you can't "block" shots that hit your AV10 Vehicles or bikes that have small squad sizes and that wonderful LD7.

The standard Tau tactic against Falcons is to keep the rear door pinned shut and keep the thing shaken. And we DO worry about the assault. Tau players are generally content with that. Don't wanna say this but...so should you. I'd feel more sympathetic if you played footsloggers, but KoS is similar to Mech Tau and we keep that rear door shut pretty nicely.

I'm talking about 4th, not 3rd. Everyone bitches about how Marines and MEQ's are overplayed. Now non-MEQ troops benefit from cover greatly, and people bitch that no one will play Marines anymore. Now the biggest "non MEQ" armies, are either Godzilla, which focuses on tons of MC's with T6 and 3+ (or better) Saves, or Mech Eldar or Mech Tau, which are more about their vehicles and units with 3+ saves (generally) than they are about the rest of the army. Orks just arrived and are something that can make a strong non-MEQ style army, and there are posts on dakka about how nice it is to see a "horde army be viable".

Nevermind. I read it incorrectly. I do agree here. If I played more games I would probably still enjoy playing against eldar/nidzilla than hurr spase mariernz.

stonefox wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Space them in a Konga Line? Reading the PDF section on blasts, it even talks about how the scatter can make it hit your own troops, or other models out of range/LOS. It clearly says that any MODEL that has its base partially touched by the template is hurt.

Correct. "In these cases hits are worked out as normal." AFAIK, you only have one target unit that you resolve hits against.

I guess we're reading it differently. I take it to read that the hits are worked out as normal, ie. you roll to wound, save, etc. There is no separate section for stating how your deal with your own models that are hit by the template (which is a possiblity given as an example in the rules). I'm just not seeing it as a restriction to a single squad as far as casualties go.

200+ models across a 6'x1' plot: Six feet = 72", 1"base+2" separation = 24 models. 24x12" front to back = 288. If you have vehicles it will eat up some of these spots. Yeah I guess it'd be unfortunate for those 6 models wrapped around and placed behind the first row. Even placed to get max models, you'd get maybe 6 models under there, 4" separation+3x1" bases across.

Vehicles, terrain placement, tons of stuff stop that. You deploy like that and you're not charging on turn 2. You won't even have a lot of models engaged to fight if you spread out that far.

I do not see that kind of deployment as even possible to get something into assault as a threat. And if there are multiple squads of this, then you can hit somewhere in the middle, but I'm reading the rules and nothing is stopping casualties coming from other units that are hit by the blasts.

It seemed like you felt justified in defending your position by saying "I wouldn't..." and now add "but others will." I'm not saying it (footsloggers) is wrong, but dude, you just tried to say that it's not that bad since you won't do it yourself.

I'm not sure how it came across, but my point is that this "horde Orks" style army isn't going to be as bad as people are making it out to be. It's not because I personally won't play it. I just don't see it as some kind of "auto-win" style army. I think that lots of templates and the mission types being laid out will very much deal with it.

Also look at the one deployment type, you get TWO troops and an HQ on the table and that's it. Everything else comes in from the long table edge. That's one mission that this army will fail at by its nature.

The standard Tau tactic against Falcons is to keep the rear door pinned shut and keep the thing shaken. And we DO worry about the assault. Tau players are generally content with that. Don't wanna say this but...so should you. I'd feel more sympathetic if you played footsloggers, but KoS is similar to Mech Tau and we keep that rear door shut pretty nicely.

I've played footsloggers (old edition), and KoS (army evolved), and I've played a number of games with the new rules using both kinds of armies (I have a lot of Orks).

Mech Eldar are a foil to Kult of Speed since generally if they can shoot our transports, we get stuck not doing a whole lot, and they can whittle down the lower numbers of Boyz in the list. And we still can't kill the tanks. Not being able to kill tanks is a problem in 4th Ed with Falcons because they can zoom 24" or more and score objectives, and they can drop off assaulters or Dragons which will give them a huge VP differential in the late game and you can't block the hatch for that sort of thing.

But my entire point isn't about dealing with Mech Eldar. The point is that having AV14 tanks in 4+ cover being very hard to kill with long range anti-tank (Lascannons) is not something you can compare to the Falcons which are already that unkillable.

The Falcons score.
The Falcons always have that kind of resilience.

The proposed AV14 tank does not score.
Its resilience can be negated by a number of different scenario's that are easily achievable, where as the falcon's generally can not.

Nevermind. I read it incorrectly. I do agree here. If I played more games I would probably still enjoy playing against eldar/nidzilla than hurr spase mariernz.

I'd rather face Marines (with my Xenos armies, or my own Marines) than Nidzilla or Eldar. Then again, I generally don't have to play against a ton of Marines as it is.

Rle68 wrote:the only thing missing from it are the pictures and it reaks of gw's not understanding anything

force weapons just got nerfed any unit that is immune to instant death cannot be killed by a force weapon.... all you nids players can start partying you will rule the battle field from hear on out

Because we all know that the only way to ever beat Tyranids is using Force Weapons. Against any army that doesn't have force weapons Nids auto-win.

Seriously? I'm having a great time laughing at all the knee-jerk reactions to changes that ultimately will have little affect on the game.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I guess we're reading it differently. I take it to read that the hits are worked out as normal, ie. you roll to wound, save, etc. There is no separate section for stating how your deal with your own models that are hit by the template (which is a possiblity given as an example in the rules). I'm just not seeing it as a restriction to a single squad as far as casualties go.

I thought so too at first, but they actually did change the blast/ordnance rules. In the current ruleset, ordnance says something to the effect of "all models under the template are hit/partials." I say the "hits your own models" is an exception to the rule, and the new ordnance/blast rules will probably be the center of a few YMDC topics, but yeah I think we're reading it differently.

stonefox wrote:

I guess we're reading it differently. I take it to read that the hits are worked out as normal, ie. you roll to wound, save, etc. There is no separate section for stating how your deal with your own models that are hit by the template (which is a possiblity given as an example in the rules). I'm just not seeing it as a restriction to a single squad as far as casualties go.

I thought so too at first, but they actually did change the blast/ordnance rules. In the current ruleset, ordnance says something to the effect of "all models under the template are hit/partials." I say the "hits your own models" is an exception to the rule, and the new ordnance/blast rules will probably be the center of a few YMDC topics, but yeah I think we're reading it differently.

To be honest, if your rules interpretation is correct, then yes the hordes will be more painful to deal with, but I'm almost positive that it's not limited to a single unit.

Though I don't want to get into a YMDC debate over these leaked rules, as it'd be kinda silly. But basing it on the fact that all partials hit, and you'll get multiple squads even if they set them up in lines, is the reasoning that these horde armies will be easier to deal with.

Also the whole thing with the one deployment setup with 2 Troops and 1 HQ max, and the table corner deployments, etc.

I just don't see it as dominating as some people do.

Therion wrote:What exactly is wrong with VP denial? It's an interesting aspect of the game.

No, not really. VP denial delays and avoids contact. It is inherently non-interactive. I find VP denial to be boring to play against. It's cowardly and uninteresting.