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Yeah, having read the update above, I've lost all interest in this now. They really aren't helping themselves, and their post seems to say "we want your cash, but can't be bothered with a whole bunch of sorting, or offering new and exciting things, so take what we offer and that's it".

I really don't see why they didn't just run this on their own website as a pre-order. Kickstarter has only been used as a marketing tool in this instance, and they seem to have had everything planned out from the beginning, so between that and a lack of choices, what's the point of bringing it to Kickstarter if there is so little option for generating excitement, new additional products, or fun for those who are backing this?

I'm out. And also, the chart was confusing and seemingly retro-active. Are you telling me that if they didn't get $30k that it would have been only in black and white? Please. I am now wondering if the things they had planned to include that were listed up to $300k will be dropped if they don't make it up to that level. I am betting they were in there originally, but when caught flat footed about what exactly was in the books, they needed to come up with something to show what each funding level achieved.

I think the chart is a big step in the right direction (albeit a step that comes two weeks later then it should have; it should have been the first update on stretch goals). Will it pump the campaign to new levels? Ehhh...

The thing is, and I've mentioned the conspicuous absence of a clear breakdown of where the money was going 2-3 times over a few forums, that breakdown needed to be out there. But a lot of people on the forums and comments seem to be treating this as a bonus, something above and beyond that is being provided. It's not. It's not an extra, it's a requirement. The absence of it was remarkable, its presence is only bringing things up to expectations.

Basically we're back to the state of things as they should have been at the start, but with the same underwhelming value for the pledges and underwhelming stretch goals.

The one thing we can say, though, is that the speculation that "Wyrd already considered this project a success and doesn't need/want any more cash" is clearly not the case. I mean, look at the "book plan";



It's pretty clear that they are counting on at least $250,000 to actually put out what most of us would consider "finished" books.

EDIT: Also, anyone else find it hilarious that Nathan's big-motha-post basically explains that they can't/won't include options because their shipping QC stinks? " [W]hen you offer umpteen different options and quantities someone is bound to make a mistake and put in the wrong part or quantity of an item or leave it out altogether by accident", " the opportunity for mistakes to be made"... as someone that received 2 different Kirai boxes that had a) passed quality check, and b) were missing a miniature, I certainly don't doubt that this is a real problem.

Sadly, it's clear that Wyrd really does not view kickstarter as a venture system, but as a pre-order: "Yes there are some wildly successful kickstarters out there giving away gobs and gobs of goodies, but those kickstarters are also victims of their own success in that quite a few of them don't make anywhere near the amount of profit that folks think when it comes down to it".

It's not about profit, it's about getting things to market. As long as they think it's about profit, they will continue to miss the point.

I wonder, will they hit 250k or not? At this rate now, I sincerely doubt it, pity really.

I don't see them hitting 250,000 either, but based on the Breach Side Chats, I also don't see them ignoring Skirmish Model Stats and Advanced Pursuits since Mack has already mentioned giving them to us in the book (Specially talks about the Elementalist Advanced Pursuit and Lady Justice's stats).

With nothing of Mack's words that I can think of atm, they might "ignore" the creature catalog...

Just got confirmation on 200 pages per.

Value is there now at 60, I think.

Now If we could just get some preview images of the exclusive fate deck and how the fate decks for TTB differ, and a digital sculpt preview of Hannh, I may be in.

Well, that post of Nathan was a load of ****. Profit, really? It's kickstarter, it's supposed to be a crowd funding campaign. Where does immediate profit come into it? It's funding, not making a direct profit, that's supposed to come after the funding, especially if you sit on your high horse and talk about not waning to useKickstarter as a store, you know the thing that does want a direct profit. Somewhat odd, make up your mind, either use it for funding stuff, or just be honest in that it's a pre-order campaing and not a crowd funding one.

As far as the shipping he menioned, that's just... a non reason, either that or he has incompetent staff and should be looking to hire new ones who can read orders and pack them properly.

The chart however, is a good addition to the kickstarter. It should have been around earlier, true, but at least it's there now. Which is a step forwards.

Actually, you need to factor in some level of profit into your kickstarer or you'll go broke once you finish filling your initial orders and be unable to produce product for retail distribution. You still have to meet payroll as production goes forward, buy materials/supplies, then there's advertising which is on you to provide to distributers/retailers, etc.

Crowdfunding to a certain extent is pre-ordering. These campaigns aren't being run as charities after all.

If this were a charity, it'd be one of those with the high overhead costs / a smaller percentage going to the "cause"

 Breotan wrote:
Actually, you need to factor in some level of profit into your kickstarer or you'll go broke once you finish filling your initial orders and be unable to produce product for retail distribution. You still have to meet payroll as production goes forward, buy materials/supplies, then there's advertising which is on you to provide to distributers/retailers, etc.

Crowdfunding to a certain extent is pre-ordering. These campaigns aren't being run as charities after all.

Everything you mentioned is factored in prior to determining profit.

You need to maintain a good gross margin, to make sure that you can pay all expenses, but actual bottom line profit is different. The theory, for me at least, is that you make your profit on later sales.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nathan Caroland wrote:
It's amazing how things like that add up and you find any and all profit has simply gone *poof*.

While some may not believe it, we actually have gotten several e-mails from both distributors and retailers thanking us for not going for the kill and trying to get every single bit we can direct to us. Would I like to? Yeah, sure, who wouldn't like an increase in profit! At that same time why should we cut everyone's throat, including our own, when we can also work with others within the industry and at the retailer level and support each other. Believe me, those favorite local stores of yours go away and you'll notice it, and so would we. We would like to see everyone around for a long, long time.

[

So, remember: they're not going full bore with the KS because they want to keep profits up, and if they did that, they'd make more profit and hurt your FLGS.

 cincydooley wrote:
Just got confirmation on 200 pages per.

Value is there now at 60, I think.

Now If we could just get some preview images of the exclusive fate deck and how the fate decks for TTB differ, and a digital sculpt preview of Hannh, I may be in.

From what I took out of the first Breach Side Chat, the exclusive fate deck is a standard fate deck in how its numbered and suited. It also adds some player aids directly on the cards, from what I remember it was mostly dealing with the fates.

 Catyrpelius wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Just got confirmation on 200 pages per.

Value is there now at 60, I think.

Now If we could just get some preview images of the exclusive fate deck and how the fate decks for TTB differ, and a digital sculpt preview of Hannh, I may be in.

From what I took out of the first Breach Side Chat, the exclusive fate deck is a standard fate deck in how its numbered and suited. It also adds some player aids directly on the cards, from what I remember it was mostly dealing with the fates.

I thought it also may have included like a generic trigger card? I could be wrong and would have to give the first chat another listen

 Polonius wrote:
Everything you mentioned is factored in prior to determining profit.

You need to maintain a good gross margin, to make sure that you can pay all expenses, but actual bottom line profit is different. The theory, for me at least, is that you make your profit on later sales.

Profit, is simply total revenue minus total cost. The initial costs of future production must come either from current profit or new investment. If the crowdfunding makes enough profit, there is no need for further investment to continue production and keep the cycle going.

 Alfndrate wrote:
Like I said, please take the model discussion talk to the thread that discusses the models. But we have a good update today!

D
We currently have 2 books for release after the KS
Into the Bayou - More expanded lore and fluff of the Bayou, and you can create a gremlin

From Nightmares - Get to play as Neverborn and learn more about the natives to Malifaux.

All excellent news, and making me feel better about backing. This is still a very strangely run campaign with mixed messages from Wyrd.


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 Alfndrate wrote:
I don't see them hitting 250,000 either, but based on the Breach Side Chats, I also don't see them ignoring Skirmish Model Stats and Advanced Pursuits since Mack has already mentioned giving them to us in the book (Specially talks about the Elementalist Advanced Pursuit and Lady Justice's stats).

With nothing of Mack's words that I can think of atm, they might "ignore" the creature catalog...

Which would be a pretty bad call IMO. I would expect to fight undead, constructs, and assorted weirdos. Without that, you're limited to mechanical interaction with humansoids using the same creation/rules as PC's.

Wyrd really don't want custom do they! Poor excuses for a rubbish KS.

If this doesn't reach $250,000 (resulting in complete books), I pull my backing for the project. Not enough value for money and I can spend it elsewhere.

Is it wrong that I actually want the free/kickstarter only/exclusive/not for gamestores stuff? I'd double my money with them for a lot less than it would cost Wyrd to produce (Isn't that how businesses work?) if they simply offered a better investment.

 02Laney wrote:
Wyrd really don't want custom do they! Poor excuses for a rubbish KS.

If this doesn't reach $250,000 (resulting in complete books), I pull my backing for the project. Not enough value for money and I can spend it elsewhere.

Is it wrong that I actually want the free/kickstarter only/exclusive/not for gamestores stuff? I'd double my money with them for a lot less than it would cost Wyrd to produce (Isn't that how businesses work?) if they simply offered a better investment.

No it's not wrong man, people dive into these for different reasons, but Nathan's words here continue Wyrd's record of trying not to step on the toes of the flgs.

I'm not exactly sure why Gaming Kickstarters (this one in particular) are always worried about stepping on LGS toes. First off, as of right now, there are 1181 backers. Lets say each of them will be getting a set of books. Ok? So a little over 1000 people have books. Are they not expecting to sell many more over the years? 1000 players should be a drop in the bucket. There are FAR more Malifaux players than just 1000. If there werent, Wyrd wouldn't be in business.

Second, does it not occur to people/companies that alot of people don't actually have a local game store anywhere near them? Until very very recently, all I had is GW stores, and all they carry is GW stuff. The nearest one was at least a good 45/60 minute drive...and i live near Chicago! Why drive all that way when I can order if off of Warstore or Amazon at a discount of up to 40% and have it delivered straight to my door?

Just something to keep in mind when you go to preach about these ventures 'hurting' FLGS....

 Breotan wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Everything you mentioned is factored in prior to determining profit.

You need to maintain a good gross margin, to make sure that you can pay all expenses, but actual bottom line profit is different. The theory, for me at least, is that you make your profit on later sales.

Profit, is simply total revenue minus total cost. The initial costs of future production must come either from current profit or new investment. If the crowdfunding makes enough profit, there is no need for further investment to continue production and keep the cycle going.

But that's actual profit, as in "money in owner's pockets" profit. And that's fine, I'm all for gaming companies making money. But I'm not horribly interested in whether Wyrd has a nice profit. I want value for my money. What you are saying is that a good kickstarter can mean that future production is at lower cost. That's great for the company, but even the moral benefit of Kickstarter isn't to increase profits, but to increase access to capital.

Let's not pretend that companies take a massive loss on kickstarters. Sure, some over promise or underprice. But for an established company like Wyrd, they get two huge benefits: first, advanced capital with a 10% upfront fee, but no interest payments. Second, they get to sell directly to consumers in a way few manufacturers still do. Retail sales for a company like Wyrd are mostly gravy, as they sell products at ~30% of retail to distributors. So, in this kickstarter, Wyrd is getting basically damn near full retail, a year in advance. So, instead of selling a book to an FLGS for 50% of retail, or to a distributor for 30% of retail, in a year, they get 90% of the price now, minus a few toss ins.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kaiohx wrote:

Just something to keep in mind when you go to preach about these ventures 'hurting' FLGS....

I think a lot of it is perception. As I note above, when a manufacturer sells at retail, it makes them a ton of money. OTOH, getting product into distribution and into FLGSs is what makes a game successful.

So, sure, a kickstarter could bring in a small fortune by aggressively pricing the product line, and cutting out the middleman. But, since by definition a Kickstarter is a new product, distributors and stores may not stock it, assuming the market is saturated.

Kaiohx, could you please define recently? When you're talking about gaming stores? Cause Chicago is far more of a city than Cleveland, and we've had gaming stores for at least the past 12 years (I started DnD in late 1999).

I was in Chicago almost 4 years ago, and there were 3 to 5 stores (including the Bunker) that stocked gaming supplies, hell I bought my first Warmachine models in Chicago..

From my words, it's not preaching about Wyrd not wanting to hurt the FLGS, it's actively something Wyrd tries not to do. Sure they sell some of the models early during GenCon or with their Birthday sale (you could pick up January and February's boxes in a 4 day period this past weekend), but you couldn't buy the December box, which comes to a FLGS near you in a week or so, but that December box won't be seen on Wyrd's webstore till after the New Year.

There's an entire thread that Hotsauceman1 started about kickstarters hurting the flgs using Zombicide as an example, which you can find here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/487876.page

I'll admit I backed the Bones kickstarter for the figs, but at the end of the day, that's probably 100 dollars Reaper wouldn't have seen from me for years, since I buy DnD figures about once ever year or so when my character invariably dies, and I generally do it through Reaper's store so I can get the fig I want, instead of piecing through the haphazard collections of three different stores.

Alfndrate:
I moved here from Cleveland about 7 1/2 years ago, and back then Cleveland only had 2-3. Warzone, Matrix, Recess and maybe one more. Since then I know Matrix is gone, Recess is in the mall and could give a crap about RPGers since they moved to cards and stuffed animals, and I have no idea if Warzone is even still out there near Hopkins Airport.

In the Chicago area, there is/was Games Plus, Leisure Hours, Valhalla, Gaming Goat and a few more I cant remember. Games Plus and Gaming Goat are far far away from me, Leisure Hours primarily sells train and RC stuff with a few RPGs and some random tabletop stuff, Valhalla shut down after a few months, and all the others are mainly Magic/Yugioh/Pokemon stores. Everything else is GW. LIke you said, you think there would be more since Chicago is so big..but thats the problem. Its so big, driving anywhere is at least 45-60 minutes. You have to make a day of it.

The only exception to this for me is the Wandering Dragon, which opened up just before the summer. Great store in Plainfield. That's why I said very recently.

Also, I'm not sure that link of Hotsauceman1's you posted is a good argument. In fact, it goes on to further reinforce what I've said in many cases. Take Sedition Wars or Zombiecide. I personally didn't back them. My LGS carries them. If I decide I like them, I'll more than likely buy them from the store. I'm certainly not going to refuse to buy them because the KS backers got 200% more stuff than I am. Either way, it hasn't hurt my LGS at all.

 Alfndrate wrote:
From my words, it's not preaching about Wyrd not wanting to hurt the FLGS, it's actively something Wyrd tries not to do.

Which is why, given that they apparently think selling direct to be hurting FLGS, it's odd that they're doing a kickstarter at all.

They seem to be hypocritical about it- condemning other campaigns for hurting FLGS, yet making their own campaign... and in order to not hurt FLGS, doing a bad job of it

Yet, they seem to want to get to 250K at least, or perhaps 300K, to put all they want in the book. It's circular.

But so is this discussion, so I'll bow out now...

Idk here Matrix was, but the Warzone is still out there, it's known as Warzone Matrix now, still in that same gakky location... Recess had several shops in the malls, but they closed them all down but the one in the Great Lakes Mall near Mentor (though the one in the Great Northern Mall is supposed to be opening up again, with a focus on RPGs and TTGs again), and there is and has been Gamer's Haven out over in the Parma Heights/Strongsville area.

When I started back in 1999, there was Yannigan's Compendium over on Center Ridge Road within 10 minutes tops of most of the West Side of Cleveland.

I do find it interesting that Chicago, which holds AdeptiCon (Namely GW I know), doesn't have more stores... Granted there was one on the north side of Chicago that I went to, small place, got my butt beat by Dan from The Eternal Warriors Podcast, and there was Black Sun Games in like the heart of Chicago, but they closed...

As to the "making a day of it" I drive 60 minutes to get to my flgs... But then again, I also work a full time job before I go to the game store lol. The only time I wasn't already "in the area" for that store was the Friday after Thanksgiving...

Anyhooser... Should be getting today's update soon. Could somebody give a quick reply so I don't auto-append?

Edit:
RiTides, I don't know why they did a kickstarter... I don't work with Justin, Mack, Eric or Nathan :-/ Maybe it was the mindset that they had with Evil Baby Orphanage, yes people have been asking Wyrd for an RPG for some time now, and I'm sure people were asking the Vlog Brothers about Evil Baby Orphanage... Idk man, if I had the answers I'd give them...

 Alfndrate wrote:

Anyhooser... Should be getting today's update soon. Could somebody give a quick reply so I don't auto-append?

I could do that.

Now to figure out something relevant to post so Alph doesn't get mad at me...


Are we still without a PDF only option?

 Cyporiean wrote:

Are we still without a PDF only option?

There wont be one. And at this rate there won't even be PDFs until someone rips one.

 kaiohx wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:

Are we still without a PDF only option?

There's wont be one.

Which is just crazy considering how prevalent tablets are these days.

Minor update today guys, I'm going to drop off Dakka for a bit, Cyporiean has me editing EFT stuff tonight, and if I don't get it done, I don't get to live to see 2013...

Hi everyone!

Day Sixteen is coming to a close, so it’s time for the Daily Update! First things first, thank you for your awesome support!

$175K – Achieved!

You unlocked two more upgrades in our Through the Breach Book Plan. We’re now able to bump up both book lengths up to 200 pages, and we can include double the gear and magic!

Get ready for another hijacked update, ‘cause Mack is stealing the show again. We’re excited to announce that Mack will be joining game developer Jeff McCord (Sword of Fargoal 2) tomorrow at 3:30 PST for a half-hour discussion about our Through the Breach Kickstarter project!

Jeff had a successful Kickstarter campaign last October (http://far.gl/sof-ks), and one of the things that he and his team created during the campaign was the Kick-a-thon — a live, streaming video podcast that celebrates creative game projects which are being supported by Kickstarter campaigns.

For just shy of 24 hours they will be interviewing about 30 different game-related project owners and teams. Catch Mack Martin discussing Through the Breach at 3:30! Follow this link: http://www.freelancelot.com/kickathon/what-is-it/ and find the “Subscribe” button at the bottom of the page to listen in tomorrow!

Until Tomorrow!

Jacqulyn

You mean Wyrd doesn't consider iTunes to be a LFGS? I don't know why not, GW does.

These updates are just terrible. It reads like PepsiCo's PR firm wrote it...

You unlocked two more upgrades in our Through the Breach Book Plan. We’re now able to bump up both book lengths up to 200 pages, and we can include double the gear and magic!

Well that's... underwhelming. As per usual. Just by happenstance I have my D&D 4ed Player's handbook at hand, 316 pages, hardbacked, $34.95. Heroes of the Fallen Lands (a 4e essentials book), 360ish pages, softcover, $19.95.

Wyrd is offering for $60 (paid nearly a year in advance!)... a pair of 200 page softcovers. So... originally they were really going to give people a pair of 128 page books for that? Really? Really?

They are bound and determined to offer as little as possibly to backers, it's really become quite fascinating.

 Buzzsaw wrote:
They are bound and determined to offer as little as possibly to backers, it's really become quite fascinating.

Yea, I've given up trying to figure out what the hell they were thinking with this whole kickstarter project. On one hand, I just cannot believe that they are that blithely stupid. On the other hand, there is just so much evidence to the contrary.

 Buzzsaw wrote:
So... originally they were really going to give people a pair of 128 page books for that?

You forgot black & white.

I feel like some of those goals were misrepresentative of their actual goals. If Wyrd had launched with two 128-page B+W books for $60 without an enemies collection, it probably would have seriously damaged their rep. I can't actually believe that that was ever a goal that would have represented "success", meaning I'm feeling fairly deceived by Wyrd right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As my wife put it, it's like buying an ever-expanding mystery bag, that started as a bag of dog gak, when it should have started at 100% of what they wanted to put out (i.e. success) and grown from there to be better.

Talking about our own comic and a hypothetical kickstarter some time way down the line, it isn't like we would say "and, at $4k, you get all the text bubbles!"

As another analogy, some years back, I bought a Sonic game, where you start out as terrible, and, but a third of the way through the game, you have a basic move set, instead of how most games start with a basic move set, and by a third of the way through, you get some cool stuff. Said game was the only game I've dumped in the same weekend I bought it in.


I really like everything else Wyrd's done so far (except Evil Baby Orphanage, but that's 'cause I don't know anything about it, not that I don't like it), but this is feeling really... wrong. I'm still getting the basic rules, but had been saving for some time to throw all my disposable cash at Wyrd (preferably Futurama-style).

That probably points to why the chart wasn't published at the beginning, then...