Snipers in Dallas, TX protest

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**Ouze**

The Baton Rouge shooter also was connected to the Sovereign Citizen movement, which really screws up the narrative.

**MrDwhitey**

But happily falls into the true narrative that sovereign citizens suck.

**Ouze**

I think that's one of the few things we can all agree upon, yeah

**kronk**

Cosmo Austar Setepenra?

Well, OK then.

WTF is Sovereign Citizen? Off to Google!

This people are wacko...

**nkelsch**

kronk wrote:
Cosmo Austar Setepenra?

Well, OK then.

WTF is Sovereign Citizen? Off to Google!

This people are wacko...

So the shooter is more closely related to the Arizona Ranchers and 'County Supremacists' than #BLM. You know, the groups which pointed multiple rifles at police officers and federal agents heads, and the police/feds took it all in stride and did nothing about it...

**BigWaaagh**

Ouze wrote:
The Baton Rouge shooter also was connected to the Sovereign Citizen movement, which really screws up the narrative.

Cosmo Austar Setepenra...Kramer?

**Frazzled**

kronk wrote:
Cosmo Austar Setepenra?

Well, OK then.

WTF is Sovereign Citizen? Off to Google!

This people are wacko...

I am a sovereign citizen of my sofa, or at least the portion the dogs aren't laying on.

**CptJake**

nkelsch wrote:
kronk wrote:
Cosmo Austar Setepenra?

Well, OK then.

WTF is Sovereign Citizen? Off to Google!

This people are wacko...

So the shooter is more closely related to the Arizona Ranchers and 'County Supremacists' than #BLM. You know, the groups which pointed multiple rifles at police officers and federal agents heads, and the police/feds took it all in stride and did nothing about it...

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/18/us/who-is-gavin-long/index.html

Looking at the info in that link, I see a guy who is anti-gov't and has a lot of racial motivations. The two are not mutually exclusive, and he seems to have seen race as a motivating factor, as he saw anti-govt as a motivating factor.

An official said the belief is that Long identified as being associated with the black separatist movement in some capacity but there is no indication he was directed by it.

**Easy E**

Let's just say it is racially motivated? So what?

What does that really mean when it comes to the next political actions that need to be taken?

**kronk**

Feel good story from Wichita, KS.

I think more of this would be a good thing, right now.

WICHITA, Kan. There was unity in Wichita Sunday night after a tense week for activists and law enforcement in the community, as well as nationwide.

Sunday night's event in Wichita's McAdams Park drew a crowd of nearly 1,000 people. The name of the gathering was the 'First Steps Cookout.'

Many people who spoke to Eyewitness News reporter Deedee Sun say the event was largely a positive step to bring the Wichita Police Department closer to the community it serves.

A large crowd gathered in McAdams Park enjoyed free food and the opportunity to have one-on-one conversations with law enforcement.

"Very good vibe. Very good vibe. It's everything I was hoping for," says Wichita Police Chief Gordon Ramsay.

The barbecue took place instead of a planned protest for Sunday night.

Ramsay suggested the event to community leaders following a Black Lives Matter protest in the city last week.

Ramsay had said the barbecue was an opportunity for citizens and police to be introduced and to have positive interaction. Nearly 400 people pledged their intention to attend the event with an RSVP. More than double that amount attended.

Leading up to the barbecue, there was a lot of positive support in response to the event on social media. People at the barbecue said it is the right way to respond to the unrest going on across the country.

The Wichita Police Department brought the burgers and grilled up and served food. Many others also brought food, contributing what they could to the barbecue.

The turnout at the barbecue was especially encouraging for some following the events that unfolded earlier in the day in Baton Rouge with three officers fatally shot by a gunman.

"Especially after what happened in Baton Rouge today, just makes it all the more painful. But I just feel very proud of my city that there's so many people here," says Margaret at the 'First Steps Cookout.' "It's wonderful."

Civilians and officers say the barbecue was a concrete step toward bridging the gap between people and police.

Part of the event included a Question and Answer session with Ramsay. Some in attendance did take this opportunity to voice frustrations.

One man says he viewed the cookout as an attempt to take attention away from real cause of the tension between some citizens and police.

Ramsay says his department is committed to making things better.

"This isn't something we're going to change overnight or tonight," he says. "It's just going to take continual effort on everybody's part. And work on policy changes, relationships. And that's what's going to get to the heart of the issues."

**Dreadclaw69**

Of course the Police Chief overseeing the cookout would be called Gordon Ramsey

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ouze wrote:
The Baton Rouge shooter also was connected to the Sovereign Citizen movement, which really screws up the narrative.

I'm not familiar with the Sovereign Citizen Movement. How does his involvement with that group change "the narrative"?

**Frazzled**

They are some weird militia like group that seems to specialize in
1. inappropriately showing up in camo and bad guns;
2. seem to specialize in low level tax fraud.

**nkelsch**

Frazzled wrote:
They are some weird militia like group that seems to specialize in
1. inappropriately showing up in camo and bad guns;
2. seem to specialize in low level tax fraud.

And often there is a 3rd level of white supremacy and anti-antisemitism which hangs around them. Almost always they say 'this is about the federal guvernment' and then a closed-door rally gets recorded and it is all anti minority hate speech.

**Frazzled**

Not disagreeing. I've not seen one of their rallies. I steer clear of secesh as I tend to get into it with them.

**Dreadclaw69**

Frazzled wrote:
They are some weird militia like group that seems to specialize in
1. inappropriately showing up in camo and bad guns;
2. seem to specialize in low level tax fraud.

So if these sovereign citizens believe that they are above many of the laws, and thus out of reach of the police, doesn't that fit with what we know about Gavin Eugene Long/Cosmo?

http://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/news/baton_rouge_officer_shooting/article_8063e5bc-4c81-11e6-97a1-173e9a2c4852.html

**nkelsch**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
They are some weird militia like group that seems to specialize in
1. inappropriately showing up in camo and bad guns;
2. seem to specialize in low level tax fraud.

So if these sovereign citizens believe that they are above many of the laws, and thus out of reach of the police, doesn't that fit with what we know about Gavin Eugene Long/Cosmo?

http://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/news/baton_rouge_officer_shooting/article_8063e5bc-4c81-11e6-97a1-173e9a2c4852.html

Another military Veteran... Maybe there is an issue with vets not getting appropriate treatment???

**CptJake**

nkelsch wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
They are some weird militia like group that seems to specialize in
1. inappropriately showing up in camo and bad guns;
2. seem to specialize in low level tax fraud.

So if these sovereign citizens believe that they are above many of the laws, and thus out of reach of the police, doesn't that fit with what we know about Gavin Eugene Long/Cosmo?

http://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/news/baton_rouge_officer_shooting/article_8063e5bc-4c81-11e6-97a1-173e9a2c4852.html

Another military Veteran... Maybe there is an issue with vets not getting appropriate treatment???

For what? He was not wounded (from what we know), he was a comms guy (data networks), not a door kicker. The last one was a reservist who got sent home from theater (and kicked out of the service) for sexual harassment.

Pretty hard to pin this on the PTSD addled psycho killer vet myth.

Long received several awards, including the Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal, Iraq Campaign Medal, Global War on Terrorism Service Medal, National Defence Service Medal and Navy Unit Commendation Medal.

http://www.scmp.com/news/world/united-states-canada/article/1991229/baton-rouge-cop-killer-gavin-long-was-decorated-iraq

None of those are indicative of having been in active combat or even having been blown up by an IED while on a convoy. Between his MOS, awards and his tour dates (while we were winding down), I don't see anything that would show 'veteran mistreated or not helped' as the excuse.

**Dreadclaw69**

nkelsch wrote:
Another military Veteran... Maybe there is an issue with vets not getting appropriate treatment???

Making the assumption that he suffered from a service related impairment. I have not seen it reported that he was. Do you have a source that does?

The article states;
"assumed an extremist persona online and became increasingly outspoken after the controversial shooting death of Alton Sterling, according to state and federal law enforcement officials."

It also appears that his declaring himself a sovereign citizen also tied him to a black separatist group;
http://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/news/baton_rouge_officer_shooting/article_aa22ff5e-4cf5-11e6-80c3-4fcddb044245.html
"Long filed a “live claim birth” and “name correction” in Jackson County in which he identified himself as an indigenous member of the United Washitaw de Dugdahmoundyah Mu’ur Nation, the documents show. . . The Southern Poverty Law Center has said the Washitaw Nation is comprised of black separatists claiming to be descended from pre-Columbian inhabitants of North America. The group asserts that it is independent from the authority of local, state and federal laws."

So I'm still not seeing how the sovereign citizen angle "screws up the narrative."

**nkelsch**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
Another military Veteran... Maybe there is an issue with vets not getting appropriate treatment???

Making the assumption that he suffered from a service related impairment. I have not seen it reported that he was. Do you have a source that does?

Since we have a visibly increasing number of vets coming back from the middle east with 'issues' which go diagnosed or untreated due to both stigma as well as failing veterans care... and we have had multiple shootings from 'fine upstanding veterans' that seem to have trouble reintegrating with society when they return home and do crazypants things... makes me wonder if there is a larger issue going on?

I know a veteran who killed himself due to diagnosed PTSD because he was basically told to not bring it up. Now it seems like many of them fester... become extremists and kill people instead.

**Prestor Jon**

nkelsch wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
Another military Veteran... Maybe there is an issue with vets not getting appropriate treatment???

Making the assumption that he suffered from a service related impairment. I have not seen it reported that he was. Do you have a source that does?

Since we have a visibly increasing number of vets coming back from the middle east with 'issues' which go diagnosed or untreated due to both stigma as well as failing veterans care... and we have had multiple shootings from 'fine upstanding veterans' that seem to have trouble reintegrating with society when they return home and do crazypants things... makes me wonder if there is a larger issue going on?

I know a veteran who killed himself due to diagnosed PTSD because he was basically told to not bring it up. Now it seems like many of them fester... become extremists and kill people instead.

By "many" you mean the two that happened this month? Given the hundreds of thousands of men and women who were deployed I think we need to see a lot more than two to consider it a trend or widespread problem.

**feeder**

nkelsch wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
Another military Veteran... Maybe there is an issue with vets not getting appropriate treatment???

Making the assumption that he suffered from a service related impairment. I have not seen it reported that he was. Do you have a source that does?

Since we have a visibly increasing number of vets coming back from the middle east with 'issues' which go diagnosed or untreated due to both stigma as well as failing veterans care... and we have had multiple shootings from 'fine upstanding veterans' that seem to have trouble reintegrating with society when they return home and do crazypants things... makes me wonder if there is a larger issue going on?

I know a veteran who killed himself due to diagnosed PTSD because he was basically told to not bring it up. Now it seems like many of them fester... become extremists and kill people instead.

Your example of the veteran committing suicide is definitely a real problem that needs addressing. A male veteran is 1.5 times more likely to kill himself than a civilian man is.

The "PTSD mass shooter" narrative is not supported by facts, however. A veteran is no more or less likely to be a mass murderer than anyone else.

**CptJake**

nkelsch wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
Another military Veteran... Maybe there is an issue with vets not getting appropriate treatment???

Making the assumption that he suffered from a service related impairment. I have not seen it reported that he was. Do you have a source that does?

Since we have a visibly increasing number of vets coming back from the middle east with 'issues' which go diagnosed or untreated due to both stigma as well as failing veterans care... and we have had multiple shootings from 'fine upstanding veterans' that seem to have trouble reintegrating with society when they return home and do crazypants things... makes me wonder if there is a larger issue going on?

I know a veteran who killed himself due to diagnosed PTSD because he was basically told to not bring it up. Now it seems like many of them fester... become extremists and kill people instead.

The crap bag who shot cops in Dallas had nothing in his records to signify PTSD, though he did have info in his records to show he was a gak bag (sexual harassment that got him kicked out of the Army).

From what we know of Long's record, again, nothing to show he was exposed to anything to cause PTSD. He was not a combat arms trooper, he has no awards we know to show combat experience (as opposed to being deployed in a combat zone) and the 'when' of his deployment was a time when we were drawing down.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

feeder wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
Another military Veteran... Maybe there is an issue with vets not getting appropriate treatment???

Making the assumption that he suffered from a service related impairment. I have not seen it reported that he was. Do you have a source that does?

Since we have a visibly increasing number of vets coming back from the middle east with 'issues' which go diagnosed or untreated due to both stigma as well as failing veterans care... and we have had multiple shootings from 'fine upstanding veterans' that seem to have trouble reintegrating with society when they return home and do crazypants things... makes me wonder if there is a larger issue going on?

I know a veteran who killed himself due to diagnosed PTSD because he was basically told to not bring it up. Now it seems like many of them fester... become extremists and kill people instead.

Your example of the veteran committing suicide is definitely a real problem that needs addressing. A male veteran is 1.5 times more likely to kill himself than a civilian man is.

The "PTSD mass shooter" narrative is not supported by facts, however. A veteran is no more or less likely to be a mass murderer than anyone else.

Actually, the latest studies show vet suicides tend to happen in younger guys who do one term or less, and deployment to a combat zone is not really a factor (rates are very similar in guys who did not deploy). It appears it has more to do with screwed up folks who never should have been in the military coming into the military, and as a result there has been a focus on better screening.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/02/us/study-finds-no-link-between-military-suicide-rate-and-deployments.html?_r=0

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/06/health/soldier-suicides-cause-study/index.html

http://time.com/3766948/military-suicide-deployment/

So the PTSD means suicide is a myth just like the PTSD addled killer is a myth. Yes, vets are committing suicide. PTSD does not seem to be the primary reason at all.

**Dreadclaw69**

nkelsch wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
Another military Veteran... Maybe there is an issue with vets not getting appropriate treatment???

Making the assumption that he suffered from a service related impairment. I have not seen it reported that he was. Do you have a source that does?

Since we have a visibly increasing number of vets coming back from the middle east with 'issues' which go diagnosed or untreated due to both stigma as well as failing veterans care... and we have had multiple shootings from 'fine upstanding veterans' that seem to have trouble reintegrating with society when they return home and do crazypants things... makes me wonder if there is a larger issue going on?

I know a veteran who killed himself due to diagnosed PTSD because he was basically told to not bring it up. Now it seems like many of them fester... become extremists and kill people instead.

So do you or do you not have a source that shows this individual was suffering from PTSD, or are you prepared to say that you are making unsubstantiated assumptions?

**d-usa**

Clearly there is something that is caused by being a military veteran that causes all this, or it wouldn't be military veterans doing it.

**CptJake**

d-usa wrote:
Clearly there is something that is caused by being a military veteran that causes all this, or it wouldn't be military veterans doing it.

There have been a few other shootings of cops/attempted shootings of cops over the last couple of weeks, hasn't there?

Not all done by vets. Race, specifically blacks agains police, does seem to be a motive where we have info that allows us some insight into motive (we don't in all cases).

And there are millions of veterans form the last decade+ of war, so these two shootings does not seem to be indicative that 'there is something that is caused by being a military veteran that causes all this'.

**Easy E**

CptJake wrote:
d-usa wrote:
Clearly there is something that is caused by being a military veteran that causes all this, or it wouldn't be military veterans doing it.

There have been a few other shootings of cops/attempted shootings of cops over the last couple of weeks, hasn't there?

Not all done by vets. Race, specifically blacks agains police, does seem to be a motive where we have info that allows us some insight into motive (we don't in all cases).

And there are millions of veterans form the last decade+ of war, so these two shootings does not seem to be indicative that 'there is something that is caused by being a military veteran that causes all this'.

Don't we have as much correlation around vets as we do race?

Baton Rouge- Black Guy and vet
Dallas- Black Guy and Vet

What other police shootings are you referring to beyond run-of-the-mill law enforcement related violence?

**nkelsch**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:

So do you or do you not have a source that shows this individual was suffering from PTSD, or are you prepared to say that you are making unsubstantiated assumptions?

Considering the last 4 veteran shootings had PTSD/Mental Illness and it was untreated due to 'reasons'. (Fort hood 2014, Fort hood 2009, Navy Yard, Houston)

And then there are other PTSD shootings like the Chris Kyle shooting.

So we see another veteran perpetuating a shooting... begs the question... Considering we *ARE* neglecting our VETs health care and how we take care of them after being deployed, and there is Stigma over treatment for PTSD... It isn't an issue which should be ignored out of blind admiration of Veterans who are seen infallible heroes.

**CptJake**

Easy E wrote:
CptJake wrote:
d-usa wrote:
Clearly there is something that is caused by being a military veteran that causes all this, or it wouldn't be military veterans doing it.

There have been a few other shootings of cops/attempted shootings of cops over the last couple of weeks, hasn't there?

Not all done by vets. Race, specifically blacks agains police, does seem to be a motive where we have info that allows us some insight into motive (we don't in all cases).

And there are millions of veterans form the last decade+ of war, so these two shootings does not seem to be indicative that 'there is something that is caused by being a military veteran that causes all this'.

Don't we have as much correlation around vets as we do race?

Baton Rouge- Black Guy and vet
Dallas- Black Guy and Vet

What other police shootings are you referring to beyond run-of-the-mill law enforcement related violence?

nkelsch wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:

So do you or do you not have a source that shows this individual was suffering from PTSD, or are you prepared to say that you are making unsubstantiated assumptions?

Considering the last 4 veteran shootings had PTSD/Mental Illness and it was untreated due to 'reasons'. (Fort hood 2014, Fort hood 2009, Navy Yard, Houston)

And then there are other PTSD shootings like the Chris Kyle shooting.

So we see another veteran perpetuating a shooting... begs the question... Considering we *ARE* neglecting our VETs health care and how we take care of them after being deployed, and there is Stigma over treatment for PTSD... It isn't an issue which should be ignored out of blind admiration of Veterans who are seen infallible heroes.

Are you seriously using Maj Hassan at Ft Hood as a PTSD case? That fether never even deployed.

Alexis (Naval yard shooter) never deployed, and was a crappy trooper (in trouble multiple times). Yeah, sick, not PTSD at all.

Dionisio Garza (Houston shooter) was never diagnosed with PTSD (though his dad wants to believe he suffered from it).

And Lopez (2014 Ft Hood shooter) may have suffered from PTSD, but being pissed at not being allowed to take leave is what lead to the shooting, not PTSD.

**BaronIveagh**

I think it's just a case of better training and some thought and preparation being put into it.

The sort of things the military does give everyone, in theory, deployed or not.

I'm actually surprised at the restraint shown so far. I keep waiting for them to burn/bomb/mortar a police station.

**CptJake**

http://www.ptsd.va.gov/professional/co-occurring/research_on_ptsd_and_violence.asp

Individuals with PTSD have an elevated prevalence of risk factors that are associated with increased violence, such as substance misuse and comorbid psychiatric disorders. Because of this, findings regarding the relationship between PTSD and violence should be interpreted cautiously if they are based on analyses that do not take risk factors other than PTSD into account. For example, in one study of Veterans who served post-9/11, PTSD when examined on its own was associated with an increased risk of violence. However, when alcohol misuse was statistically controlled, PTSD was no longer associated with an increased risk of violence (3). The prevalence of violence in PTSD is comparable to the prevalence in anxiety and depressive disorders, which ranges from 5.0% to 11.7% (2,5). The prevalence of violence is higher among individuals with alcohol or substance misuse (range = 9.1% to 34.7%) (2,6,7). Furthermore, the more diagnoses someone has, the greater the likelihood of violence.

The data showing that the prevalence of violence among individuals with PTSD is 7.5% in the US population and 19.5% in post-9/11 Veterans suggest that the association between PTSD and violence is especially strong in this Veteran cohort. However, to understand these findings, it is important to consider that post-9/11 Veterans are relatively young (median age = 34) and that younger age is associated with increased risk of violence (2-4). For example, in the National Comorbidity Survey of the US general population, the prevalence of violence in the past year was 32.7% among men between the ages of 25-34 but only 1.3% among men aged 35-44 (2). Findings like these suggest that age and perhaps other demographic characteristics need to be considered when comparing the post-9/11 cohort with non-Veterans or with Veterans of other eras.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/inside-the-criminal-mind/201404/ptsd-explanation-violent-behavior

Washington Post article that is decent: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/link-between-ptsd-and-violent-behavior-is-weak/2012/03/31/gIQApYFZnS_story.html

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaronIveagh wrote:
I think it's just a case of better training and some thought and preparation being put into it.

The sort of things the military does give everyone, in theory, deployed or not.

I'm actually surprised at the restraint shown so far. I keep waiting for them to burn/bomb/mortar a police station.

The Dallas shooter got his training outside of the military (his MOS was a vertical construction engineer, but after he got booted from the army he attended tactical shooter training).