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 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It also presumes that there's a set guideline for what would be considered a "heroic" deed.

Again going by fluff you'd think they'd ring the bell for every space marine that died regardless of reason, to say nothing of how the Ecclesiarchy will conflate what is a "heroic death" from a normal one.

That's why it's an approximation that could be quite a bit wrong either way.

Yeah but with everything 40k, you generally go for the higher estimate, then multiply it by 2 because, 40k.

 Gen.Steiner wrote:
Don't feed the troll!

How about don't be a dick? I actually use to have a sisters of battle army when dow came out and when I bought the models online they where witch hunters. They had a van helsing type model who was just amazing. He had a old fashion witch hunter hat long gun with a flame on it, and with the cannoness beside him was just amazing. Still sad I lost them during the move.

And on the troll part I pay little to no attention about people fighting about what plastic parts may be under a toys clothes, it is a plastic toy!!!!! I remember the witch hunters who where renamed sisters long ago. The witch hunters where amazing all around. coven of nuns who burnt everything to the ground a few priests in there aswell who also melted the world.

It was like a church lead army of perfection and beauty with the freaks flagellants and penitent engines with the organ tanks so pretty.

Best models ever





Oh I am editing like hell here but for me the reason the sisters of battle will never be as good as witch hunters

Lack a male lead

Before you start thinking SEXIST I have a more reasonable excuse.

1: Being a male I like things big mean scary. Like the inquistor I would kill for a male female 2 pack of that model.
2: Like most people even if I do it sub-consciously I tend to connect to a character and being the general I like the guy on the table who is the general be as much like me as possible. So being a male and favoring weapons I like is strongly needed, knowing their is a female above me who is actually in charge means little to nothing to me but being the general of this battle I want to be represented there. So a force of all females well I find appealing I do not feel as connected to it as I do with say ork who even tho are not human are all about brute force survival of the strongest ect ect.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Yeah but with everything 40k, you generally go for the higher estimate, then multiply it by 2 because, 40k.

Worth noting on this subject is that the Imperium is fragmented and most heroes die unsung and unknown.

They can only ring bells for deaths that they find out about. On a galactic scale, the criteria for 'hero' must also be considerable.

Plus, not every Marine death becomes known either. Some simply go MIA. and it would be embarassing to ring the bell for someone who is recovered later (outside of special cases like Lysander).

But that is off topic.

Replaying ME3 with my Femshep made me realise how cool women in sci-fi armour could be. :( #prayforsisters #yesallarmour

OgreChubbs wrote:
1: Being a male I like things big mean scary. Like the inquistor I would kill for a male female 2 pack of that model.
2: Like most people even if I do it sub-consciously I tend to connect to a character and being the general I like the guy on the table who is the general be as much like me as possible. So being a male and favoring weapons I like is strongly needed, knowing their is a female above me who is actually in charge means little to nothing to me but being the general of this battle I want to be represented there. So a force of all females well I find appealing I do not feel as connected to it as I do with say ork who even tho are not human are all about brute force survival of the strongest ect ect.

I'm a guy in real life, and I don't really have a problem playing female characters in... literally any game I play that gives me that option.

Maybe just being a guy doesn't automatically translate to needing a male character to be your avatar in a game?

OgreChubbs wrote:
Best models ever

"Best?" Please.

The only exceptional model there is the Crusader, of which I bought both variants.
The Hospitalier is OK.
The rest are ass.

And the Inquisitor? Belongs in Mordheim.

 Ashiraya wrote:
But that is off topic.

Replaying ME3 with my Femshep made me realise how cool women in sci-fi armour could be. :( #prayforsisters #yesallarmour

A woman in high-tech plate armor that still makes her look feminine?

So... off the top of my head, Samus Aran, Pharah, Femshep, and Sisters of Battle?

Not seeing any downsides to the concept of feminine-looking power armor, really.


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 JohnHwangDD wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
Best models ever

"Best?" Please.

The only exceptional model there is the Crusader, of which I bought both variants.
The Hospitalier is OK.
The rest are ass.

And the Inquisitor? Belongs in Mordheim.

The Hospitalier is my second-favorite Sister of Battle mini, actually.

My MOST favorite is the Retributor with Heavy Bolter.

I really like that Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor - it fits the Gothic feel of 40k amazingly well.

 Pouncey wrote:
A woman in high-tech plate armor that still makes her look feminine?

So... off the top of my head, Samus Aran, Pharah, Femshep, and Sisters of Battle?

Not seeing any downsides to the concept of feminine-looking power armor, really.

Armored Samus Aran is not feminine at all. Unless you're talking Zero Suit. In which case, rock on!


But really, if we're going down this rabbit hole, I think that it's hard not to include Calhoun.



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 Pouncey wrote:
My MOST favorite is the Retributor with Heavy Bolter.

Well, that's a given for everybody...

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Armored Samus Aran is not feminine at all. Unless you're talking Zero Suit. In which case, rock on!


But really, if we're going down this rabbit hole, I think that it's hard not to include Calhoun.



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 Pouncey wrote:
My MOST favorite is the Retributor with Heavy Bolter.

Well, that's a given for everybody...

I said power armor. And Samus Aran's power armor looks feminine enough to me.

Also Lt. Morales from Heroes of the Storm.

Bodysuits like Samus Aran's Zero-Suit... my enjoyment of them is more perverse than I typically like to indulge in in games, really. Luckily there's TONS of fan art on that subject for me to enjoy. : D

Given that the Metroid suit wasn't gendered until after a poll was taken, no.

And Lt. Morales looks about as feminine as Caster Semenya.

 Pouncey wrote:
Femshep

No comment on the others as they all have their own issues (though Pharah's are largely irrelevant due to the sheer variation of alternative choices), but Shepard is just golden. I completely agree with you there.




Add all necessary bits as PA is both enclosed and powered (unlike Shepard's suit) and then add all the design gubbins, gothic design, fleur de lis, flowing cloth and whatever you like, and you got yourself something goooooooooooood.

Of course, I doubt you'll get a visor to match your theme, but if you could it would be an excellent excuse to go helmetless (certainly better than the 'morale' and 'inspiration' excuse the Marines cooked up. )

Okay, so maybe some of the ones I like don't work for you guys.

Can we at least agree that women in heavy-duty sci-fi armor can be awesome, epic AND hot?

Why do they have to be hot? Anything resembling an equivalent (Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard) is a tiny niche that would not have been present at all had their main faction not been 50% of the 40k game.

Why do people get angry when I suggest that hotness is not a necessity? Sexual gratification is not even related to the decree passive at all!

Any arguments you make regarding 'they must have boobplate because decree passive' (an assumption that is headcanon itself) becomes even less convincing if you admit it is just because you want a titillating miniature.

If you are unconcerned with reasonable design and want a hot female soldier model, Prodos or whatever they are called might be your thing.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Why do they have to be hot? Anything resembling an equivalent (Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard) is a tiny niche that would not have been present at all had their main faction not been 50% of the 40k game.

Why do people get angry when I suggest that hotness is not a necessity? Sexual gratification is not even related to the decree passive at all!

Any arguments you make regarding 'they must have boobplate because decree passive' (an assumption that is headcanon itself) becomes even less convincing if you admit it is just because you want a titillating miniature.

Uhh... I'm pretty sure I listed three qualities there, and hotness was the least important to me. It appears to be REALLY important to YOU though.

You did not specify which one is least important to you.

In addition, it is fairly easy to find 'women in heavy-duty sci-fi armor' that are 'awesome' and 'epic', however, ones that are not designed to be sexually gratifying are in very short supply indeed. Placing more importance on that is therefore a natural consequence, and it has nothing to do with all these constant fairly unpleasant accusations I have received in this thread about 'obsession'.

 Ashiraya wrote:
You did not specify which one is least important to you.

Correct. You assumed the only thing I like about the Sororitas aesthetic is their physical attractiveness. You are, in fact. wrong about that. It's something I enjoy about their aesthetic, yes, but not the only thing I enjoy. I also believe that if the exaggerated feminine characteristics were reined in but they still were clearly women, I'd still find them hot.

Because I find Pharah hot, along with Lt. Morales. So no, boobplate is NOT a hotness requirements for me, only a feminine figure.

In addition, it is fairly easy to find 'women in heavy-duty sci-fi armor' that are 'awesome' and 'epic', however, ones that are not designed to be sexually gratifying are in very short supply indeed. Placing more importance on that is therefore a natural consequence, and it has nothing to do with all these constant fairly unpleasant accusations I have received in this thread about 'obsession'.

Well, you assumed it about someone who it was not true of. So yes, I'm going to take offense when you assume that just because I find their current aesthetic to be attractive means that's the only thing I like about their current aesthetic.

I'll agree that the armor doesn't need to be "sexy" for the model to look good or for it to be easily identifiable as a woman. Pharah from Overwatch is a good example of this, her armor looks great and isn't overly sexualized, yet she is easily identifiable as female. If Gee-dubs did something like that with plastic Sisters (with a few minor changes to suit the Sisters religious nature), they'd be well on their way to some epic models imo

 War Kitten wrote:
I'll agree that the armor doesn't need to be "sexy" for the model to look good or for it to be easily identifiable as a woman. Pharah from Overwatch is a good example of this, her armor looks great and isn't overly sexualized, yet she is easily identifiable as female. If Gee-dubs did something like that with plastic Sisters (with a few minor changes to suit the Sisters religious nature), they'd be well on their way to some epic models imo

Yay! Someone partly agreed with me! : D

Today I've been having trouble getting people on the same side as me in an argument to agree with me. They seemed to believe that even making a valid argument was unnecessary.

 Pouncey wrote:
Hey, regarding that fan math that resulted in there likely being 10 billion Sisters of Battle...

It's funny how these numbers go around and around.

Looking at the actual background rather than fanon a good estimate for the current number of Battle Sisters within the Major Orders is 20,000. Consider that when Thor founded them they numbered 4,000 and two and a half millennia later this number had grown to, perhaps, 30,000. Currently the number of Battle Sisters is said to be down with each Militant Order having, and I quote Codex: Sisters of Battle, "between 3,000 and 4,000 Battle Sisters". Further to this the original six Orders are described, in Codex: Witch Hunters, as, 'by far the most numerous' before you ask about how many Battle Sisters there might be within the 'unknown' number of Minor Orders. Generously then, there could be approximately 20,000 Battle Sisters within the Minor Orders making for a rough total of... 40,000 Battle Sisters.


Of course, there's no need to let those pesky numbers from the background get in the way of having millions or billions of Battle Sisters if that's what someone prefers to believe...

 Gogsnik wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Hey, regarding that fan math that resulted in there likely being 10 billion Sisters of Battle...

It's funny how these numbers go around and around.

Looking at the actual background rather than fanon a good estimate for the current number of Battle Sisters within the Major Orders is 20,000. Consider that when Thor founded them they numbered 4,000 and two and a half millennia later this number had grown to, perhaps, 30,000. Currently the number of Battle Sisters is said to be down with each Militant Order having, and I quote Codex: Sisters of Battle, "between 3,000 and 4,000 Battle Sisters". Further to this the original six Orders are described, in Codex: Witch Hunters, as, 'by far the most numerous' before you ask about how many Battle Sisters there might be within the 'unknown' number of Minor Orders. Generously then, there could be approximately 20,000 Battle Sisters within the Minor Orders making for a rough total of... 40,000 Battle Sisters.


Of course, there's no need to let those pesky numbers from the background get in the way of having millions or billions of Battle Sisters if that's what someone prefers to believe...

But if Space Marines outnumber Sisters of Battle 25:1, how can Imperial citizens find Sororitas a more common sight than Space Marines?

If you spread them out as thinly as possible, one per planet, only 4% of Imperial planets would even HAVE a Sister of Battle on them.

Gogsnik is cherry-picking in order to try to deflate the numbers as much as possible. The problem with his method is that GW has not been consistent about the number of Sisters at all-- hell, in fifth edition the rulebook actually had a typo where they said the Sisters only had three major orders, not six.

 Pouncey wrote:
But...

It's a valid point and there is an absolute contradiction within the background. If you went by what it said in descriptive terms, basically every noble house in the Imperium has a Sister Famulous spying over their shoulders and yet it's the Battle Sisters who are said to be the most recognisable, that doesn't add up.

 Melissia wrote:
Gogsnik is cherry-picking

Now come on Melissia, you know I'm not cherry picking those numbers. They are the numbers. It's not my fault they wrote the background like that. Right? Riiight? In all seriousness though, there isn't much to cherry pick from unfortunately, if only there was.



Incidentally I've been planning on making some Sisters of Battle and I have stupid amounts of pictures for inspiration but no boob plate, no high heels, but still, probably, recognisably feminine, that's the basic gist of what people would like to see on a model isn't it?

Hoyvenglayven we're back to the armor argument AGAIN?

 Pouncey wrote:
Okay, so maybe some of the ones I like don't work for you guys.

Can we at least agree that women in heavy-duty sci-fi armor can be awesome, epic AND hot?

It's OK that you like them, but you said they were feminine, and that is what I objected to. Also, agree that "hot" is kinda irrelevant - I prefer "badass", but that's just me.

Anyhow, getting back to Lt. Morales...


If you didn't tell me that the wearer of that suit was a woman, I'd never have guessed it. The bulky body and broad shoulders are really proportioned more like the Hulk than Black Widow.

And the long, bulky codpiece? That's a penis.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Okay, so maybe some of the ones I like don't work for you guys.

Can we at least agree that women in heavy-duty sci-fi armor can be awesome, epic AND hot?

It's OK that you like them, but you said they were feminine, and that is what I objected to. Also, agree that "hot" is kinda irrelevant - I prefer "badass", but that's just me.

Anyhow, getting back to Lt. Morales...


If you didn't tell me that the wearer of that suit was a woman, I'd never have guessed it. The bulky body and broad shoulders are really proportioned more like the Hulk than Black Widow.

And the long, bulky codpiece? That's a penis.

Funny enough I assumed this person to be female on the first guess, but that's because Starcraft only had female avatars for their medics (Of any kind).

 Gogsnik wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
But...

It's a valid point and there is an absolute contradiction within the background. If you went by what it said in descriptive terms, basically every noble house in the Imperium has a Sister Famulous spying over their shoulders and yet it's the Battle Sisters who are said to be the most recognisable, that doesn't add up.

I'll fully agree that it's a huge contradiction.

Space Marines are a rare enough sight as it is, yet they ask us to believe Imperial citizens would recognize Battle Sisters when they have 4% the numbers of all Space Marines combined?

I call BS on that.

 Melissia wrote:
Gogsnik is cherry-picking

Now come on Melissia, you know I'm not cherry picking those numbers. They are the numbers. It's not my fault they wrote the background like that. Right? Riiight? In all seriousness though, there isn't much to cherry pick from unfortunately, if only there was.



Incidentally I've been planning on making some Sisters of Battle and I have stupid amounts of pictures for inspiration but no boob plate, no high heels, but still, probably, recognisably feminine, that's the basic gist of what people would like to see on a model isn't it?

I say no to high heels entirely. Some of the art may have Battle Sisters in high heels, but NONE of the models do, and high heels are utter gak in combat and not good for anything Sororitas actually do.

Boob plate I'm indifferent about so long as we don't take the Diablo 3 route and make them like Johanna from Heroes of the Storm.

Because... well, YMMV, but her flat chestplate threw the gender recognition part of my brain for a loop for a while until I got used to it and saw her other feminine traits.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fObnjQGrZZQ

That's Johanna's official trailer.

Personally though, in terms of my preference for the Sisters of Battle as a faction, I love female characters who look female, I love holy warriors wielding minor divine miracles as part of their arsenal, I love heavy plate armor, I love high-tech stuff, I love powerful guns, and I love ornate armor which looks kinda ceremonial. So long as the new models look good and meet those criteria, I really would be okay if the boobplate goes away, so long as the armored torso still somehow looks female.


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 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Funny enough I assumed this person to be female on the first guess, but that's because Starcraft only had female avatars for their medics (Of any kind).

I played a lot of Brood War, maybe that's why I peg her as a woman based on her armor's looks.

 Pouncey wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Funny enough I assumed this person to be female on the first guess, but that's because Starcraft only had female avatars for their medics (Of any kind).

I played a lot of Brood War, maybe that's why I peg her as a woman based on her armor's looks.

OK, so you guys knew that the character was female from playing the game. But take it out of the Starcraft Context and that's not nearly as reasonable of a conclusion.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Funny enough I assumed this person to be female on the first guess, but that's because Starcraft only had female avatars for their medics (Of any kind).

I played a lot of Brood War, maybe that's why I peg her as a woman based on her armor's looks.

OK, so you guys knew that the character was female from playing the game. But take it out of the Starcraft Context and that's not nearly as reasonable of a conclusion.

I guess I can see that.

Okay, maybe not a good example.

That's why I went with Sgt. Calhoun, who is obvious female, and obviously the most capable person in her unit.