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I've played a 1500 game of Kakophonii+Iron warrior CAD vs 1k sons war kebab conclave.

Kakophonii had a configuration of 4 blasters, 1 blastmaster and ccw, dozer rhino. Drug lord - bike, lc, fist, sigil, magic dose. 5 slaanesh spawns. Iron warriors had a 2+ armor tzeench dp with ml3 and spell familliar, 4 oblis.

1k sons had 2*10 strong squads with soulreapers and min other stuff. Termies in LR.

Kakophonii were...not amazing but not too bad at the same time. Free 6+++ is neat. Blastmasters were a waste. I'd likely avoid them in the future and just go for full sonics and a siren + ccw. Iron warriors were good. 2+ re-rollable dp with IWND and 6+++ starts to feel like he's worth the point tag eventually.

Why do you think the Blastmaster was a waste but not the salvo Bolter?

Cause it's 10 times more expensive.

 koooaei wrote:
Cause it's 10 times more expensive.

Go big or go home. Noise Marines aren't good at assaulting anyway once you add either weapon though, and then you can get regular Marines to do the whole Blob thing better.

It just seems the Blast master is the true advantage they have.

Anyone thought about a leadership debuffing list?
War cabal with telepathy, casting shriek on a 3+ (and invisibility and shrouding for durability.
Helldrake formation -1/2
Allied plague Herald with bell -1
NL vox daemonicus -1
Anything else?

Could do some real damage.
Would be good mixed with an unmarked legion like alphas / night lords/ iron warriors.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Cause it's 10 times more expensive.

Go big or go home. Noise Marines aren't good at assaulting anyway once you add either weapon though, and then you can get regular Marines to do the whole Blob thing better.

It just seems the Blast master is the true advantage they have.

Well. Seems like a trap to me. You're better off with just a sonic for 27 pt cheaper. They get shred in formation which is good enough. Still not amazing for 20-21 pt but passable with shred if you really want noize marines. Let's put it this way. If you were running noie marines beforehand, they only become better. Significantly better. But still not good enough in the common way. You'd not insta loose if you field them at least.

Ghorgul wrote:

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:

. Taking the detachment is kind of must, for Night Lords the charge reroll and 1st turn +1 cover save is very tempting and should be used. Also 1st turn turboboosting 2+ jink bikers are no joke, but this doesn't happen with CAD.

The CAD loses OBSEC and the charge reroll, but should still retain the 2+ jink. Jink+Night+Stealth= a 2+ jink. They wouldn't be OBSEC, but that's still pretty awesome. For me it's worth it to go CAD just to have some obliterators and my Fire Raptor.

The more I look at the Night Lord list, the more excited I become about the potential. Winning will be a challenge, but way more viable than before.

Actually we still need to do Murder Talon, be it with Raptor Talon or whatever, but that is the thing that forces night fight, so can't go only with CAD. I was so excited already. But anyway, that would be ok, as Raptor Talon is a bit cheaper and less restrictive than Warband, although does pile up fast to atleast 500 to 600 points.

I understand Night provides Stealth to everyone and having 2 Stealths don't stack I think? So only the detachment Bikers can get 2+ Jink on first turn, and that's due to the Murder Talon detachment bonus +1 cover + Stealth + Jink. Anyway, even constant 3+ Jink is good for bikers.

EDIT 15.12.2016 Corrected grammar.

Oh definitely do the murder Talon, I was just saying you'd only need the raptor Talon and 3 spawn, which is a substantially smaller tax.

I'd thought Night fight was LIKE stealth, but if it's the actual rule, your right, it would only be a 3+. I'm gonna have to mess with some lists tonight and see if I can find a warband pattern I like, because 2 biker squads with 2+ saves would have a lot of potential, and they become more effective with OBSEC... if only I could find a way to get my Fire Raptor in there.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Anyone thought about a leadership debuffing list?
War cabal with telepathy, casting shriek on a 3+ (and invisibility and shrouding for durability.
Helldrake formation -1/2
Allied plague Herald with bell -1
NL vox daemonicus -1
Anything else?

Could do some real damage.
Would be good mixed with an unmarked legion like alphas / night lords/ iron warriors.

We can get leadership down to almost nothing but i highly doubt it makes a viable list.
Just csm alone have the heldrake formations for a -3 at max. -2 from raptor talon, -1 from NL, -1 from EC.
-1 from kranons helguard (which also exists as a generic CSM formation so could be NL). And there's the red onslaught which also reduced leadership by 1
So that's -9 right there . Terrify would add another -1 temporarily. That's not even including warlord traits.

So you can pretty much give everything leadership 1 or 2 which is the same thing really, so no need for the red onslaught. And this is before considering allies like dark eldar who can do this well too.
This doesn't instagib units though. You would need 0 strength, toughness or wounds for that. which is really hard to do since maledictions reduce to a minimum of 1.

 koooaei wrote:
I've played a 1500 game of Kakophonii+Iron warrior CAD vs 1k sons war kebab conclave.

Kakophonii had a configuration of 4 blasters, 1 blastmaster and ccw, dozer rhino. Drug lord - bike, lc, fist, sigil, magic dose. 5 slaanesh spawns. Iron warriors had a 2+ armor tzeench dp with ml3 and spell familliar, 4 oblis.

1k sons had 2*10 strong squads with soulreapers and min other stuff. Termies in LR.

Kakophonii were...not amazing but not too bad at the same time. Free 6+++ is neat. Blastmasters were a waste. I'd likely avoid them in the future and just go for full sonics and a siren + ccw. Iron warriors were good. 2+ re-rollable dp with IWND and 6+++ starts to feel like he's worth the point tag eventually.

I can't help but think that the reason the Blastmasters were underpar is because you were firing them at TSons with their Invuls. Everytime I've faced Noise Marines I'm terrified of the thing.

 Insectum7 wrote:

I can't help but think that the reason the Blastmasters were underpar is because you were firing them at TSons with their Invuls. Everytime I've faced Noise Marines I'm terrified of the thing.

Well, there wasn't a single time i was able to shoot the blast. Noie marines were either moving or shooting at invis.

I was looking over the Legacies of Ruin and the Primordial Iterator might be what a Maelstrom of Gore needs to get up to snuff. It grants FnP to every unit with an Icon of Wrath, which is...good? I mean, it seems like it could help a bit with the initial charge at least. Plus if you're taking that formation you're pretty much going for broke anyways, so might as well make the berzerkers decent again, admittedly for a pretty sizable price tag since you're adding redundant Icons to your Zerkers and the Iterator is 40 points on a rhino. Four units of zerkers with icons + the Iterator is 70 extra points for FnP if they stay within 12 inches of the Rhino (which isn't that hard to do). Thoughts?

 andysonic1 wrote:
I was looking over the Legacies of Ruin and the Primordial Iterator might be what a Maelstrom of Gore needs to get up to snuff. It grants FnP to every unit with an Icon of Wrath, which is...good? I mean, it seems like it could help a bit with the initial charge at least. Plus if you're taking that formation you're pretty much going for broke anyways, so might as well make the berzerkers decent again, admittedly for a pretty sizable price tag since you're adding redundant Icons to your Zerkers and the Iterator is 40 points on a rhino. Four units of zerkers with icons + the Iterator is 70 extra points for FnP if they stay within 12 inches of the Rhino (which isn't that hard to do). Thoughts?

One shot at that Rhino and that's 70 points wasted. FnP has always been absurdly useful for me, but I'm really not sold on all those icons just to support a legacy on a Rhino. Maybe if the legacy got dropped on a flyer, which would give it way more flexibility and ability to get round the table better.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I've played a 1500 game of Kakophonii+Iron warrior CAD vs 1k sons war kebab conclave.

Kakophonii had a configuration of 4 blasters, 1 blastmaster and ccw, dozer rhino. Drug lord - bike, lc, fist, sigil, magic dose. 5 slaanesh spawns. Iron warriors had a 2+ armor tzeench dp with ml3 and spell familliar, 4 oblis.

1k sons had 2*10 strong squads with soulreapers and min other stuff. Termies in LR.

Kakophonii were...not amazing but not too bad at the same time. Free 6+++ is neat. Blastmasters were a waste. I'd likely avoid them in the future and just go for full sonics and a siren + ccw. Iron warriors were good. 2+ re-rollable dp with IWND and 6+++ starts to feel like he's worth the point tag eventually.

I can't help but think that the reason the Blastmasters were underpar is because you were firing them at TSons with their Invuls. Everytime I've faced Noise Marines I'm terrified of the thing.

Blastmasters are still hampered by the terrible blast rules but at least they ignore cover and inflict ID on T4 models. Not a terrible buy if you know you're running into Wulfen and the like.

 koooaei wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

I can't help but think that the reason the Blastmasters were underpar is because you were firing them at TSons with their Invuls. Everytime I've faced Noise Marines I'm terrified of the thing.

Well, there wasn't a single time i was able to shoot the blast. Noie marines were either moving or shooting at invis.

Ohh, interesting. I guess I'd still consider that to be an unusual scenario. My loyalists don't like facing 'em. They're also nice vs. Tau Crisis/Stealth Suits, and Ravenwing/WS Bikers with their stupid Jinks, etc. IMO the Blastmaster is a pretty sexy weapon.

Obviously, at the end of the day it's your army though.

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
I was looking over the Legacies of Ruin and the Primordial Iterator might be what a Maelstrom of Gore needs to get up to snuff. It grants FnP to every unit with an Icon of Wrath, which is...good? I mean, it seems like it could help a bit with the initial charge at least. Plus if you're taking that formation you're pretty much going for broke anyways, so might as well make the berzerkers decent again, admittedly for a pretty sizable price tag since you're adding redundant Icons to your Zerkers and the Iterator is 40 points on a rhino. Four units of zerkers with icons + the Iterator is 70 extra points for FnP if they stay within 12 inches of the Rhino (which isn't that hard to do). Thoughts?

One shot at that Rhino and that's 70 points wasted. FnP has always been absurdly useful for me, but I'm really not sold on all those icons just to support a legacy on a Rhino. Maybe if the legacy got dropped on a flyer, which would give it way more flexibility and ability to get round the table better.

Yeah the Rhino's 11 front armor is its biggest weakness. Sticking the Legacy on a flyer is somewhat pointless as you want to maximize the amount of time FnP is up on your units, and it coming in turn 2+ means there will be less models for it to effect when it arrives. Maybe an Ally detachment to bring in a Contemptor with the legacy would be better? It would certainly be sturdier and actually contribute to the war effort.

A Kytan or one of the FW Knights. That's the go-to for a legacy I imagine.

You can bring a flyer but you need to bring a landing pad in that case. It can't fly, but it can move 12 and flatout 18, shouldn't have a problem buffing you.

My main idea was to bring the legacy into a Butcherhorde + Maelstrom of Gore, so the main carriers would have to be either a Rhino, a Land Raider, a Pred, or a Helbrute. I'm realizing that allying in a CAD or Allied Detachment just for a sturdier unit to carry the legacy is a huge point sink, like several hundred, compared to the 75 point sink for the Rhino + Legacy (this is disregarding the 60 points for the icons on the four units of zerkers). Yes, the thing is probably doomed, but 135 points for even one turn of FnP on 10x4 units of zerkers seems worth the price. The enemy has to make the choice between shooting at the charging mob or shooting the Rhino, which takes some fire from the mob at least temporarily. Pop smoke and cross your fingers!

I was definitely thinking Land Raider type solution. A bit more durable, and a better capacity.

Valid point with the flyer, a contemptor isn't a bad idea, but like you said, that's gonna be a huge point sink.

 andysonic1 wrote:
My main idea was to bring the legacy into a Butcherhorde + Maelstrom of Gore, so the main carriers would have to be either a Rhino, a Land Raider, a Pred, or a Helbrute. I'm realizing that allying in a CAD or Allied Detachment just for a sturdier unit to carry the legacy is a huge point sink, like several hundred, compared to the 75 point sink for the Rhino + Legacy (this is disregarding the 60 points for the icons on the four units of zerkers). Yes, the thing is probably doomed, but 135 points for even one turn of FnP on 10x4 units of zerkers seems worth the price. The enemy has to make the choice between shooting at the charging mob or shooting the Rhino, which takes some fire from the mob at least temporarily. Pop smoke and cross your fingers!

It won't really be able to keep up with smoke. You can't flat out and smoke.

Stick it on an alpha rhino and it can infiltrate. Still gonna blow up, but you never know.

 Roknar wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
My main idea was to bring the legacy into a Butcherhorde + Maelstrom of Gore, so the main carriers would have to be either a Rhino, a Land Raider, a Pred, or a Helbrute. I'm realizing that allying in a CAD or Allied Detachment just for a sturdier unit to carry the legacy is a huge point sink, like several hundred, compared to the 75 point sink for the Rhino + Legacy (this is disregarding the 60 points for the icons on the four units of zerkers). Yes, the thing is probably doomed, but 135 points for even one turn of FnP on 10x4 units of zerkers seems worth the price. The enemy has to make the choice between shooting at the charging mob or shooting the Rhino, which takes some fire from the mob at least temporarily. Pop smoke and cross your fingers!

It won't really be able to keep up with smoke. You can't flat out and smoke.

2D6 move for 7" average + 6" first turn move, the zerkers will be about 13" up the table turn one. If the rhino is just behind them, it'll keep up going cruising speed 12" and then popping smoke, no need to flat out. The Legacy FnP bubble is 12", so it doesn't have to be sniffin their butts to cover them either. Even if it moved combat speed 6" first turn it would still cover them depending on their 2D6 free move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:
I was definitely thinking Land Raider type solution. A bit more durable, and a better capacity.

Valid point with the flyer, a contemptor isn't a bad idea, but like you said, that's gonna be a huge point sink.

Problem with that is now you're taking a Fist of the Gods Aux formation and spending points on a LR and 2x Preds if you're keeping points down, 490+ points just for the legacy. Might as well go with the combined arms ally detachment at that point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Stick it on an alpha rhino and it can infiltrate. Still gonna blow up, but you never know.

Er what? Are you confusing the Helforged Warpack with the Fist of the Gods formation? Helforged Warpack allows you to choose an alpha unit, but it doesn't get infiltrate. Fist of the Gods doesn't even allow you to bring Rhinos. Where are you making an alpha rhino?

 andysonic1 wrote:
2D6 move for 7" average + 6" first turn move, the zerkers will be about 13" up the table turn one. If the rhino is just behind them, it'll keep up going cruising speed 12" and then popping smoke, no need to flat out. The Legacy FnP bubble is 12", so it doesn't have to be sniffin their butts to cover them either. Even if it moved combat speed 6" first turn it would still cover them depending on their 2D6 free move.

Assuming they don't make it into combat that is. Which maelstrom zerkers have a decent shot at. Though I suppose you can daisy chain the odd zerker to be in range, since it applies to the unit.

 Roknar wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
2D6 move for 7" average + 6" first turn move, the zerkers will be about 13" up the table turn one. If the rhino is just behind them, it'll keep up going cruising speed 12" and then popping smoke, no need to flat out. The Legacy FnP bubble is 12", so it doesn't have to be sniffin their butts to cover them either. Even if it moved combat speed 6" first turn it would still cover them depending on their 2D6 free move.

Assuming they don't make it into combat that is. Which maelstrom zerkers have a decent shot at.

It is the main reason you take them, you're right. However! You still have to consider that the Legacy bubble is 12". As I pointed out, you can keep the Rhino very close to them, covering them for the overwatch and, if they do make their charge (which they most likely will), it will have a good chance of covering them should they charge forward 12". Not every model in a berzerker unit of 10 (or 8 as I am now lowering the units in an attempt to bring more Rhinos for a different reason) needs to be in the bubble, just one to confer the FnP to everyone. You can pretty much cover all four units for the overwatch, and maaaaaaybe two+ for the close combat phase. Yeah, your Rhino is now most likely going to die in the next turn to shooting, but it did its job.

Edit: Here's a dumb idea: every unit of berzerkers takes a Rhino, doesn't start in them, the Rhinos all have Dirge Casters, no legacies. The Rhinos move 12" then flat out another 6", putting their Dirge Casters within range of the very edge of the enemy deployment zone. If you go second, and they enemy moves forward for any reason, and your Rhinos aren't completely gone yet, you can negate overwatch pretty easily. I call it a dumb idea because it isn't very realistic or all that helpful. If I was taking Rhinos with the zerkers, I'd use them as firing platforms or for the Legacy as outlined above.

Played a small game of 750 with kakophonii without blastmasters - plain sonic blasters with a biker lord wielding a d6 s8 ap2 shot thingy. And i do like this configuration better. Point reduction leads to better damage output. They do lack antitank in small games but in larger games when there are allies it's a more preferable way to run them. At least for me.

 koooaei wrote:
Played a small game of 750 with kakophonii without blastmasters - plain sonic blasters with a biker lord wielding a d6 s8 ap2 shot thingy. And i do like this configuration better. Point reduction leads to better damage output. They do lack antitank in small games but in larger games when there are allies it's a more preferable way to run them. At least for me.

I respect your choice but I disagree with it whole heartedly. The blast Master and the doom siren are the only reasons to take noise marines over marked CSM. My list runs 4 min Noise marines squads in rhinos with blastmasters from a CAD and they do serious work while scoring. The annihilate bikes and suppress vehicles by at least shaking them, they also cause instant death and force multiple pinning checks. Sonic blasters are easily avoided or countered by transports and have garbage output on the move, which they need to be doing to get into threat range.

The key is knowing how many is enough, I won't run more then 4 units and probably should pair it down to 2 or 3 and bring more demonettes and seekers ultimately. BTW my primary AT comes from 2 deimos vindicator laser destroyers. A must have in any cult list IMHO.

The problem with sonic blasters is the range reduction on the move. If salvo weapons could fire at full range while on the move it would make noise marines easily the best cult troops.

Currently, the blastmaster suffers from the fact that it's small blast, the larger new SM bases and the assault profile isn't very impressive either. Shred is very nice on blastmasters though, but the +1 strength doesn't add much, so filling all the slots in a kakophoni doesn't seem necessary. Running 3 full sized squads with 2 blastmasters and Icon seems pretty good (though very costly)

Alternatively, you could also run a squad with CCW's and doom siren, maby min sized or full sized with Icon for melee, stick them in a rhino with a dirge caster, Using a blastermaster to pin enemies.

Blastmasters splitfire and shred and ignores cover gives you a decent shot at locking down 2 squads at the same time. You can use them to set up for a charge and not worry about overwatch, cover your advance, etc. I think they are powerful if you use them right. I also like sonic blasters a whole lot more since shred is the push that made them from mediocre to pretty decent. Shred is pretty awesome on a s4 weapon, raising the hurt output by 50 percent... noise is a wonderful thing if properly supported in my very limited experience

 Red Corsair wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Played a small game of 750 with kakophonii without blastmasters - plain sonic blasters with a biker lord wielding a d6 s8 ap2 shot thingy. And i do like this configuration better. Point reduction leads to better damage output. They do lack antitank in small games but in larger games when there are allies it's a more preferable way to run them. At least for me.

I respect your choice but I disagree with it whole heartedly. The blast Master and the doom siren are the only reasons to take noise marines over marked CSM.

Doom siyrens are great. Especially with shred. But they are counter-intuitive to blastmasters in a single squad. Sirent want to roll closer and when you move, the blastmaster gets downgraded to a tiny bit better sonic blaster - s5 shred vs s4 shred is not really all that hot. It's as if grey knights had to pay 45 pts per storm bolter to get psy ammo back in the day. If you're stationary, than you either can afford to play defensively in this particular game or you're wasting 70% of the squad's cost for just a single s8 small blast that might hit a model or two.

In both games where i ran kakophonii - they were the core and not ranged support. Couldn't just hold back and hope for the best. They needed to move around and do stuff. Furthermore, it was more preferable to move 12-18" rather than 6" and shoot two s5 ap4 shots. If i need something to sit back and shoot, i'll just take an allied iron warrior cad with tankhunter obliterators - 2.5 for the price of one blastmaster nm squad.

The only thing that blastmasters really have going for them is pinning and now split fire. But unfortunately morale has become very niche now. Yeah, it's gona be neat vs some armies like non-bullyboy orks without ghaz or...night lords?..If you do remain stationary, it can be good vs 3+ armies in transports. But you need to pop the transports first, so - iron warriors. And than, you're still wasting the sonic blaster potential which has increased with shred.

My problem with blastmasters is that you don't only pay for the blastmaster itself, you also pay for the wasted rest of the squad if you want your s8 ap3 blast.

I might be wrong and it's not such a big performance difference either way. Or maybe i don't see it's potential. But so far, with my limited experience with noize marines, i'd rather go for sonic blasters and syren. Syren's great and synergises with blasters. Now i don't know about the weapons for champs. Haven't had it matter yet. They either get caught in the shootouts or get wiped by superior mellee anywayz. But i5 could matter for a claw champ.

I just want to see a champ with a powerfist ID some big nasty hq on his way down with that death attack. Bonus points if he rolls apotheosis for "winning" the challenge but the sonic weaponry aside from the siren favors camping and I have to disagree with sonic blasters synergizing all that well with the siren. On another note has anyone tried drive by sirens with lucious and a siren champ? Does that work?