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 jhe90 wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
Considering there are no cell phones, running to the nearest place with ravens is actually the only thing you can do.


Raven that needs to travel half a Continent in a few hours - I didn't mind the fast travel up till now but that was awful.

Then that prat snow
Spoiler:
decides to fail about long enough to get a Dragon killed rather than bugging out
- is there anything he does well except whine.

The only good things about the episode where the dialogue on the trip and the Sansa/ Arya chat


Does jon snow whine more

Or cersai Lanier drink more wine...?


Since Jon Snow didn't actually do any whining, I'm not sure what he has to do to stop people from whining about his whining.

A-hem.

The travel time was silly, but it's not my complaint about where the show has gone. It's perfectly good to maybe even great brain candy, but that's not what the show used to be. It's like I'm watching a spinoff with the same characters but different pace, tone and style. Or something. *shrug*

Will be interesting to see if GRRM goes the zombie ice dragon route. It feels more like a showrunner crowdpleasing move.

Edit: I've avoided the spoilers for this season (although this seems like a season 8 development anyway), but last episode seemed to suggest rather strongly that Jon will be riding Drogon down the road. I don't know how much they're following Martin on this, but IIRC, dragons aren't necessarily friendly to Targaryens. So that scene wasn't just about recognition, but a liking or bond forming. IMO.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/22 00:23:52


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I dunno, I mean, I remember back when I first read the books, I remember thinking.


"Yeah, sure, naming one of your dragons after your ahole brother that sold you into slavery isn't going to turn round and bite you in the bum at all. Nope, not in any way at all."

I'm not gonna pretend I would have predicted "zombie ice dragon" being the way that it would happen though.

   
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This is definitely feeling like the most rapid and cobbled together season so far. There have been some good and bad moments. The quick travel thing is a bit dodgy but hopefully the next season has a larger budget and thus can have more than 7 episodes so they don't have to rush through any side stories or development for the minor characters. I guess the next episode is going to be the real test as to whether or not this season is going to conclude in any satisfactory way.

 
   
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I thought it was overall a great episode. They did (quite obviously) totally throw out the concept of even possibly 'real' travel time (there's just no way, and there's not even a case to be made for time being skipped), but honestly I'm okay with that because I realize it just really isn't important at this stage of the story and prefer things to build nicely to a crescendo rather than be stuck plodding along waiting for all the events to properly align with 'realistic' travel time built in.

However, I *did* feel that this particular episode was a bit rushed...its the first time I felt being limited to 7 episodes to work with this season seriously impacted the beats of the storytelling.

But, whatever it did take to get all the players together for that that final scene was ultimately worth it, IMHO, because it was an absolutely amazing sequence. If you haven't watched the behind the scenes of how they made that scene yet, you should really watch it:




They really have been pulling off some truly epic filmmaking, on budgets that don't come close to what they spend on major blockbusters.

For example, in season 6, they spent $10 million per episode...so a 2 hour block was $20 million, compared to $150-$180 million routinely spent on blockbuster movies with roughly the same running time.

For season 7, they cut down the episode count to 7 (from 10 episodes in season 6), which means if their budget remained flat for season 7 (which it reportedly did), they're now spending around $15 million per episode. That's still only $30 million for 2 hours, which is amazing considering the quality of effects they're now putting out.

 Thargrim wrote:
This is definitely feeling like the most rapid and cobbled together season so far. There have been some good and bad moments. The quick travel thing is a bit dodgy but hopefully the next season has a larger budget and thus can have more than 7 episodes so they don't have to rush through any side stories or development for the minor characters. I guess the next episode is going to be the real test as to whether or not this season is going to conclude in any satisfactory way.

Nope, season 8 is only 6 episodes.

You see, in order to have truly amazing special effects, they have to cut down the number of episodes they'll have so that they have the money to pay for those efx...that's just the reality of the business.

We can expect season 8 to have truly epic visuals and set pieces, but it will not have a lot of episodes.


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Man, lots of cool stuff, but the writing, timing, quick travel, continuity and dialog is, well, starting to *really* feel like they've lost the guiding hand of Martin. Stuff that previously would have been half the season is all getting crammed into a single episode or stuff just isn't flowing right.

John coming out of a frozen lake and being apparently bone dry seconds later when Benjin shows up, Dragons showing up seemingly in just hours after Gendry runs off, increasingly obvious foreshadowing, etc ad nauseum.

It really feels like they're cramming stuff to cut the number of episodes they have to produce and it's starting to show badly in an increasingly erratic narrative. Hoping they shape it up here.

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 Thargrim wrote:
... hopefully the next season has a larger budget and thus can have more than 7 episodes...


1. This season didn't have a smaller budget.
2. Next season has 6 episodes.

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Rewatched the ep, and the perfect example of the rushed nature of the story right now is Jon and Benjen/Coldhands. Their reunion deserved to breathe, because those characters were close and shared some unique history. Instead we got a few seconds and about 3 exchanged lines. In a better handled version of this season, Benjen escorts Jon to the Wall and they talk on the way.

"There's no time" indeed.

I really have to assume that the show runners have some outside pressures on them, probably involving actors and their contracts and availability. Because there's no way you reunite Jon and Benjen and do that if you have ANY sense as a storyteller.

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Gorgon gets it. Fast travel is the least of the sins in the writing.

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It felt like an episode in three parts. There was the march beyond the wall, where we got to enjoy interactions between all these great characters that we hadn't seen share screen time before. Those parts were well done and really good fun. If they wanted a spin off that was just the Hound and Tormund wandering around bickering I would watch that show forever.

The second part was the intrigue at Winterfell. I like Arya and Sansa, but man am I sick of Littlefinger and the way the story is contrived to make people entertain his obvious cons. It's doubly annoying here because both Arya and Sansa are supposed to have come through so much hardship and manipulation to come out the other side hardened and wise, but they get written down to a level where Littlefinger's bs still works.

The last part then was the big setpiece ending. The production of the scene was excellent, and just plain amazing for tv, and the story they constructed for the fight was effect - capturing the wight, trapped by the undead, saved by Danaerys was well constructed. It was let down by the plot contrivance that got the dragons to the scene in time, though.

Still that's probably a minor nitpick, though. Honestly I was more bothered by Benjin's contrived sacrifice, meaning his story was hinted at for 5 years, only to really amount to nothing much at all.

I'm a bit surprised at the complaints about how some characters have become main characters who cannot die. This was always the case. It's just Martin hid who the main characters were in the first couple of seasons. It was always a bit of a con that anyone could die at any time, because there was always key characters with key plot arcs that were going to play out. Anyone who thought because they killed Ned and Rob then maybe Jon or Tyrion might be next was falling for a bait and switch.

That said, I was surprised Tormund didn't die. Obviously Jon, Jorah and the Hound weren't going to die, they're key characters with plots still to be played out. I also feel they're got something planned for Beric, though I don't know what. It would have been really cheap to kill Gendry the episode after bringing him back, so that left Tormund and Thoros as the ones who were gonna die. The show did pull its punches a little by only killing one of those two. I really like Tormund so I wasn't disappointed that he's still around to be awesome, but much like when Bran survived the dragon attack, it does add a bit of a safety rails element to the action.

Though I guess they did kill a dragon. I didn't see that coming.


 Tamereth wrote:
Also from the moment jon falls in the lake I knew coldhands was gona save him. But why did he have to die. I feel we never really got to learn anything about his character, like the really important detail of him being dead but not under the night kings control. How did that happen?


He was saved by the Children of the Forest, who used dragonglass to save him from turning in to a wight. The whole story did seem to go nowhere though. After having Benjin disappear beyond the wall, have the surprise that he was still alive, albeit kind of half undead, for him to turn up out of nowhere to offer himself in a pointless sacrifice - it was a weirdly anti-climactic story that had been lurking in the background for ages, promising a payoff the show never even attempted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Thargrim wrote:
This is definitely feeling like the most rapid and cobbled together season so far. There have been some good and bad moments. The quick travel thing is a bit dodgy but hopefully the next season has a larger budget and thus can have more than 7 episodes so they don't have to rush through any side stories or development for the minor characters.


There's only 6 episodes in the last season, although some of them are meant to be much longer than the episodes we've had this season.

It isn't really budget limits that's reduced the season's running length. The action setpieces this season have been huge and crazy expensive for TV. Really what's been cut is the cheaper stuff, the dialogue. So the reduction in run times and the timewarps that's produced have probably mostly been a creative decision - they're trying to speed things up as they move to the end. Pace brings drama, and all that.

That said, a few cable shows have opted for two half seasons to finish their run. Mad Men did the same thing - the last two seasons were half length. There might be some TV production reason behind it.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/08/22 06:42:53


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Thargrim wrote:
... hopefully the next season has a larger budget and thus can have more than 7 episodes...


1. This season didn't have a smaller budget.
2. Next season has 6 episodes.


I guess cause there is less pre written content for them to cover...and more CGI=high costs plus larger battles. I just hope that I haven't been watching this show for the past several years to get a boned conclusion. I'm sure it'll be plenty epic from a visual point, just hoping it isn't hollow.

 
   
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Pretty sure it's down to Friends syndrome. Show is popular, it would be tantamount to show suicide to replace any of the big names, big names can command a bigger fee, thus meaning less episodes per dollar.
   
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 BaconCatBug wrote:
Pretty sure it's down to Friends syndrome. Show is popular, it would be tantamount to show suicide to replace any of the big names, big names can command a bigger fee, thus meaning less episodes per dollar.


Plus with plot demands, less episodes, and more big battles coming the room for the needed character depevelopment for a new group is not there.

When you have 10, and some built up over seasons it's fine to kill n dd new.
Adding new in a busy 7 episodes... Not so easy.
Yet alone 6. And you have to compete with multi season favorites and dragons.

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It felt like an episode in three parts. There was the march beyond the wall, where we got to enjoy interactions between all these great characters that we hadn't seen share screen time before. Those parts were well done and really good fun. If they wanted a spin off that was just the Hound and Tormund wandering around bickering I would watch that show forever.


It might have been written that way - agreed this was well done, nice dialogue, seriously give Tromund more screen time - he is great.

The second part was the intrigue at Winterfell. I like Arya and Sansa, but man am I sick of Littlefinger and the way the story is contrived to make people entertain his obvious cons. It's doubly annoying here because both Arya and Sansa are supposed to have come through so much hardship and manipulation to come out the other side hardened and wise, but they get written down to a level where Littlefinger's bs still works.


Again agreed, Arya and Sansa was good and I like the fact that whilst they love eahc other as sisters the also just plain don't like each other and never have - siblings. Littlefinger will probably turn out to a Faceless Man himself given GRM's love of that rather dull plotline in the books

The last part then was the big setpiece ending. The production of the scene was excellent, and just plain amazing for tv, and the story they constructed for the fight was effect - capturing the wight, trapped by the undead, saved by Danaerys was well constructed. It was let down by the plot contrivance that got the dragons to the scene in time, though.


The whole thing was terrible, contrived, predictable and stupid. The bear attack was a indulgance - I guess it showed how incredably stupid wondering off into the ice was without anyway of getting out, any real plan. Then there was the magic island of last stands where we can watch no names get killed - yawn. The hilarious - "Run to the Wall Forest" - URGhhh what the Wall just spent days walking from and then I need to "send a Raven to Dany" - I am sorry what. Why don't I just fly there myself!

IF you want Dany to save them with her Dragons (and that was cool) - write a decent reason why she headed north days ago. Maybe she wanted to show her future subjects what she could do - whatever but that was just dismel writing.

Oh and then Jon Snow decides that he has to get those extra XP and kill some more pointless zobies - cos he is a complete tool that loses every battle he fights in and is so used to be saved by one Deus Ex machina after another he assumes he is immune to everything,. Oh look a Dragon dies because of his stupidity. Seriously Feth him.

But wait he drowns in ice water and does the world a favour - oh no he doesn;t he is dead or something so immune to the cold or something and oh look yet another minor character sacrifices themself so he can go and get more people killed - great going Jon. Apparently Cold Hands magic horse can only carry one.

Still that's probably a minor nitpick, though. Honestly I was more bothered by Benjin's contrived sacrifice, meaning his story was hinted at for 5 years, only to really amount to nothing much at all.
He doesn;t really matter n the show - it may be the same in the books he is just there to give Jon Snow a magic escape route.

I'm a bit surprised at the complaints about how some characters have become main characters who cannot die. This was always the case. It's just Martin hid who the main characters were in the first couple of seasons. It was always a bit of a con that anyone could die at any time, because there was always key characters with key plot arcs that were going to play out. Anyone who thought because they killed Ned and Rob then maybe Jon or Tyrion might be next was falling for a bait and switch.


Completely agree - Jon,Tyrion, Sam - all GRMs favourites and immune to permanent death.

That said, I was surprised Tormund didn't die. Obviously Jon, Jorah and the Hound weren't going to die, they're key characters with plots still to be played out. I also feel they're got something planned for Beric, though I don't know what. It would have been really cheap to kill Gendry the episode after bringing him back, so that left Tormund and Thoros as the ones who were gonna die. The show did pull its punches a little by only killing one of those two. I really like Tormund so I wasn't disappointed that he's still around to be awesome, but much like when Bran survived the dragon attack, it does add a bit of a safety rails element to the action.

Though I guess they did kill a dragon. I didn't see that coming.


They have been eroding Dany's overwhelming advantage throughout the season - wipe out allies, kill a dragon, etc etc. I can def see why as otherwise she auto wins. I hope they don't kill Tomrund as well but yeah a heroe's death for a coupel more of them and Bron last episode would have been better.

They know they are ending the show - thats mroe than many shows get - so there is no real excuse for cocking it up IMO

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/22 07:49:18


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 sebster wrote:
There's only 6 episodes in the last season, although some of them are meant to be much longer than the episodes we've had this season.


My understanding is every season 8 episode is 80 minutes, which means technically we're getting 8 episodes worth of content.


Also, I've been loving these little mini documentaries.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/22 08:06:52


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 Ouze wrote:
 sebster wrote:
There's only 6 episodes in the last season, although some of them are meant to be much longer than the episodes we've had this season.


My understanding is every season 8 episode is 80 minutes, which means technically we're getting 8 episodes worth of content.


Also, I've been loving these little mini documentaries.

The attack on the convoy docu was really interesting

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 Mr Morden wrote:
IF you want Dany to save them with her Dragons (and that was cool) - write a decent reason why she headed north days ago. Maybe she wanted to show her future subjects what she could do - whatever but that was just dismel writing.

Oh and then Jon Snow decides that he has to get those extra XP and kill some more pointless zobies - cos he is a complete tool that loses every battle he fights in and is so used to be saved by one Deus Ex machina after another he assumes he is immune to everything,. Oh look a Dragon dies because of his stupidity. Seriously Feth him.

But wait he drowns in ice water and does the world a favour - oh no he doesn;t he is dead or something so immune to the cold or something and oh look yet another minor character sacrifices themself so he can go and get more people killed - great going Jon. Apparently Cold Hands magic horse can only carry one.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the zombie dragon plays a major role in getting the White Walkers past the wall (assuming they do get past the wall and its not just a climatic battle at the wall that eventually stops them). If that is the case, then I'll got out on a limb and say that getting the Dragons north of the wall for the Night King to turn one of them might be one of those major plot points that GRRM shared with the producers of GoT.

If that's true, then really any way to get Dany north of the wall on her Dragons would have required equal, if not greater, contrivance to make happen in the amount of episodes they had left. There's simply no way that she was going to fully believe Jon's tales of the white walkers (and send her forces North) without some proof, so that would have meant doing the whole expedition to capture a wight earlier, showing Dany the proof to get her to move her forces north and THEN sending forces back beyond the wall (for some reason) that contained people she cared enough about to risk using her Dragons to save (Jon or Jorah, mainly).

But doing all that would have totally disrupted the flow of the season and would have put them way behind where they are going to be for the finale (which is showing the wight to Cersei and having everyone try to work out an uneasy truce to go fight the white walkers and/or maybe the white walkers breaching the wall with their zombie dragon).

The other thing you could have done was maybe have Benjen show up to save the group (before they got surrounded) and lead them to some magic cave or something that he knows about where the dead can't enter and then they could have sat there in that cave for the prerequisite amount of time for it to be realistic for the raven and dragons to fly to Dragonstone and back...but would that have really added anything to the show or the story? Not really (and would have required Benjen to know about some magic dead-proof location which itself would have been a big contrivance).

Ultimately, anyone who just hated that last battle scene and was getting angry at every little annoying nitpick you could find just needs to ease up and enjoy the ride a bit. They laid the groundwork for nearly 7 seasons to make an interesting story and now we finally get to have some exciting payoffs, where main characters are fighting for and against each other, and the stakes are now about the world rather than just will character X live or die.


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 sebster wrote:
 Tamereth wrote:
Also from the moment jon falls in the lake I knew coldhands was gona save him. But why did he have to die. I feel we never really got to learn anything about his character, like the really important detail of him being dead but not under the night kings control. How did that happen?


He was saved by the Children of the Forest, who used dragonglass to save him from turning in to a wight. The whole story did seem to go nowhere though. After having Benjin disappear beyond the wall, have the surprise that he was still alive, albeit kind of half undead, for him to turn up out of nowhere to offer himself in a pointless sacrifice - it was a weirdly anti-climactic story that had been lurking in the background for ages, promising a payoff the show never even attempted.
quote]

But was any of that covered in the show, or do you know this from the books. I don't remember any of this being covered by the show which is a problem, as the show needs to stand by itself. Most people watching haven't read the books and shouldn't need to go online to research plot points.

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was a weirdly anti-climactic story that had been lurking in the background for ages, promising a payoff the show never even attempted.

I admit that they rather wasted the character, but isn't that one of GoT strengths though? The acknowledgement that sometimes people do just die without any closure/ redemption/ heartfelt last stand against Majin Buu.

I think they should have killed off more of the Secret Seven, they would have in past series but I suppose the unexpected killing of characters loses its shock value after a time.

Its the last episode of this series next right? I hope they have a big shock waiting!
Maybe Cersei and Qyburn will form an alliance with the White Walkers? Or Sansa will have Arya poisoned by Little Finger? Or maybe The Mountain will get to have a little fun with Daenerys :-p

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/22 11:09:25


 
   
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 d-usa wrote:
They spend long enough on that rock to let the ice freeze over with enough strength to support an army again. I felt like that was a good enough hint to suggest "been there quite a while, longer than a couple hours".


The the lake was terribly inconsistent with Tormund's comments about the temperature. I've lived in Alaska where it reaches -50/-60 F at night during the winter and if you're lucky is 0 in the morning. I was so acclimated to it after the first winter that 45-50 F was t-shirt and shorts weather and even in the 20's didn't require more than pants and a jacket. You'd need a temp around 0-10 at the highest for it to be cold enough to absolutely have to keep moving if you've lived in that weather. At that temperature a lake shouldn't crack under the 100lb weight of a wight to begin with and will easily freeze over during the night.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 trexmeyer wrote:
Spoiler:
I don't see how the Raven-Dragon flight time isn't a glaring problem. It's one of the worst plot holes in pop media I've ever seen.


Then you mustn't see many things with plot holes, because this isn't a plot hole. It's a pacing issue. They're rushing.

Now it's fine if you don't like them rushing, but for me I just don't care. Not 7 Seasons in. This show has to end, and has spent so long spinning its wheels (especially with Dany, who spent an entire season looking for her stolen dragons and 6 years not coming to Westeros) that if it dragged it out any longer people would just get annoyed (we'd get another Season 5, and no one wants that).

And I know that if this season was 10 episodes and there were three "travelling around" episodes, or if the action was more spread out, giving us half action/half travelling around episodes, there'd be people here screaming about "filler" and how the "boring stuff" between the actions scenes is taking away from the action.

There is such a thing as making something all pay-off so that it becomes one giant relentless climax (the third Hobbit film might be the best example of this in recent times), but Game of Thrones is no where near Battle of Five Armies.


D and D wrote the entire season with the ending of the episode planned from the beginning and it shows. This isn't just rushing. This is them not giving a feth. This is a classic example of valuing the end of the story over the most important part, the journey.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 yakface wrote:

I have a sneaking suspicion that the zombie dragon plays a major role in getting the White Walkers past the wall.





Cause you didn't read the spoilers.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/22 11:36:59


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 Mr Morden wrote:
It felt like an episode in three parts. There was the march beyond the wall, where we got to enjoy interactions between all these great characters that we hadn't seen share screen time before. Those parts were well done and really good fun. If they wanted a spin off that was just the Hound and Tormund wandering around bickering I would watch that show forever.


It might have been written that way - agreed this was well done, nice dialogue, seriously give Tromund more screen time - he is great.
I liked it, but it was getting a little dull, the rather blatant "let's have the characters talking to make the audience get attached again in one episode!".
Also, Jon giving away Longclaw was pretty stupid. I mean, he wasn't even carrying another weapon - why would you give Longclaw away MID EXPEDITION?

I did like it though, so it's acceptable to me.


The last part then was the big setpiece ending. The production of the scene was excellent, and just plain amazing for tv, and the story they constructed for the fight was effect - capturing the wight, trapped by the undead, saved by Danaerys was well constructed. It was let down by the plot contrivance that got the dragons to the scene in time, though.


The whole thing was terrible, contrived, predictable and stupid. The bear attack was a indulgance - I guess it showed how incredably stupid wondering off into the ice was without anyway of getting out, any real plan.
They had a plan. It's just they had little actual knowledge of what to expect. What do you expect they could have done to plan against that? More people? Even more delays? Time was of the essence, and they had little data anyway.

Then there was the magic island of last stands where we can watch no names get killed - yawn. The hilarious - "Run to the Wall Forest" - URGhhh what the Wall just spent days walking from and then I need to "send a Raven to Dany" - I am sorry what. Why don't I just fly there myself!
Do we know they spent days walking from Wall to Lake? As far as I saw, they were going to the Arrowhead Mountain, which they then hunted and searched for the Army of the Dead. It could quite easily have been only a day of travel.
They only sent a raven out because they realized their plan was falling to pieces, and needed to have a survivor. If Gendry was running, and with a return route already known (making the return faster than the journey), then it could have been made in that same day, if they'd only been a day out.

IF you want Dany to save them with her Dragons (and that was cool) - write a decent reason why she headed north days ago. Maybe she wanted to show her future subjects what she could do - whatever but that was just dismel writing.
Again, if the Raven was sent out, and the Dragons can fly quick enough, it's completely possible. However, yes, I do think Daenerys should have gone to the Wall and waited, only to find Gendry coming back.

Oh and then Jon Snow decides that he has to get those extra XP and kill some more pointless zobies - cos he is a complete tool that loses every battle he fights in and is so used to be saved by one Deus Ex machina after another he assumes he is immune to everything,. Oh look a Dragon dies because of his stupidity. Seriously Feth him.
That's a real chip you've got against Jon there. Why do you hate him so much?

Again, him going and being impulsive is quite literally part of his character. He's impulsive, bloody minded and driven. He thought the escape was near, and thought he'd be able to take some more walkers down before leaving. He had no idea the Night King could even take out a dragon.
Do you think that the Hound shouldn't be afraid of fire? Probably not, because it's his character. Jon's character is his recklessness, and I think it fits it.

Also, I don't recall Jon being the reason Viserion dies. From what I saw, Viserion was looping back regardless of Jon, so I don't think he had anything to do with it. Rather, I was more bothered by:
A, the Night King's extreme accuracy and even HAVING such weapons at his disposal - did he know the Dragons were coming? Was he going to use them on Jon? Where did they come from?
B, the Night King not using it on Drogon, which had EVERYONE on him. Why go for the moving, flying, far away dragon when you can hit the dragon which is stationary, closer, and had EVERYONE on it?
C, none of the dragons even considering burning the Night King and his lieutenants, or no-one pointing at Daenerys to burn them.

But wait he drowns in ice water and does the world a favour - oh no he doesn;t he is dead or something so immune to the cold or something and oh look yet another minor character sacrifices themself so he can go and get more people killed - great going Jon. Apparently Cold Hands magic horse can only carry one.
Yeah, Coldhands didn't need to die. That was quite stupid.

Jon's resistance to the icy water isn't immunity. He needed immediate treatment when he got back, and as a Northerner, and having spent time with the Wildlings beyond the Wall, I'd say he would be more survivable of it than any other one there, except Tormund.


I'm a bit surprised at the complaints about how some characters have become main characters who cannot die. This was always the case. It's just Martin hid who the main characters were in the first couple of seasons. It was always a bit of a con that anyone could die at any time, because there was always key characters with key plot arcs that were going to play out. Anyone who thought because they killed Ned and Rob then maybe Jon or Tyrion might be next was falling for a bait and switch.


Completely agree - Jon,Tyrion, Sam - all GRMs favourites and immune to permanent death.
As we've seen so far. People suspected Ned would be immune to death, and then he died. People thought Robb wouldn't die. He did. People thought Joffrey wouldn't die as quickly as he did. He died. Many people didn't think Jon would die. He did.

Plot armour and contrivances are nearly always required in stories. Heroes practically depend on luck and Deus-Ex-Machinas, or else there simply wouldn't be a struggle.

Of course there are characters which can't die - because it's not their time yet. Or are you saying it should have been perfectly possible that Joffrey slipped and fell on a puddle in Winterfell, dying in the first episode?

That said, I was surprised Tormund didn't die. Obviously Jon, Jorah and the Hound weren't going to die, they're key characters with plots still to be played out. I also feel they're got something planned for Beric, though I don't know what. It would have been really cheap to kill Gendry the episode after bringing him back, so that left Tormund and Thoros as the ones who were gonna die. The show did pull its punches a little by only killing one of those two. I really like Tormund so I wasn't disappointed that he's still around to be awesome, but much like when Bran survived the dragon attack, it does add a bit of a safety rails element to the action.

Though I guess they did kill a dragon. I didn't see that coming.


They have been eroding Dany's overwhelming advantage throughout the season - wipe out allies, kill a dragon, etc etc. I can def see why as otherwise she auto wins. I hope they don't kill Tomrund as well but yeah a heroe's death for a coupel more of them and Bron last episode would have been better.

They know they are ending the show - thats mroe than many shows get - so there is no real excuse for cocking it up IMO
I'll agree on more deaths. Bronn should have died. and I went into this one thinking I'd see Thoros, Beric and Tormund dying off. Of course, only one did.
With Beric, I expected him and Jon on the whole "we were brought back to do something" part to charge in and try and kill the Night King, which I thought would see Beric killed by him.

On the whole, I liked this episode.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/22 12:11:05



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Well it needed some chat on the walk into the ice - so that was fine. reminds the audience who people were - some of them havve not done anything for ages.
Yeah - "have my Wight killing sword" was a bit thick - but thats Jon. I thought they might have brough more dragonglass or a dire wolf (yeah i know they could haev the bear or a dire wolf but not both)

The plan was half assed - it reminded me of our rpging sessions - lets just find them and then wing it. and the GM Sighing.

They trecked for quite a bit across lots of different areas - it looked like more than a day but then it might be they have longer days up North.

They sent Gentry when the plan failed - he had to run across snow (which is not easy anyway and as he said a terrain that he had never even seen before) back through the various features and find his way to the North - he would have been lucky to be heading in the right direction! Then find the gatehouse, then get them to send a raven half a contient away, hoping Dany was watiing.

Just have her have a vision or something - its already massively contrived so go with it or she can decide to head North to see for herself.

Yep - I really don't ike Jon - he is treated as the Gods gift to the world, whenever he screws up no one calls him out on it - nearest was Sansa and he bascially told her to shut up. I wanted someone like Jorah to say to him - next time - get on the fething Dragon and don't grandstand like an complete ass. Dany is besotted with him so didn't say anything.

Killing three Zombies meant nothing, he knows that - he goes on about the greater threat and then ignores it. Finally somoene said - yeah bend the knee you prat.

If Drogon had took off immediately then maybe the Night king would not of got a shot. The odd thing is they didnt need to have Jon be a prat (again) - - kill the Dragon as they are flying off in triamph as it drops for a last pass, or have someone shout - kill that guy, it tries and the Night king does his thing.

The plot needed the dead to get a dragon to help balance the forces so thats what they got.

I did wonder if the idea was that the Night King was aware of it all due to Bran and so knew what was going to happen - would mean that he had his magic spears of Dragon Killing ready. Also he likely knew that throwing it at Drogon with that level opf plot shielded characters on baord was never going to work - kill the other dragon.

Same as he didn't bother trying to kill Jon as he is immune to everything - something will always save him (I recall a novel series like this - with the main character realising late in the triology that his miraculous escapes always meant someone he cared about died and/or suffered horribly).

No I am used to characters not being killiable - I like the Cain series after all - I just happen to dislike most of them in this series. Killing people in tv shows is more difficult than books but as its coming to an end and they have been doing it - the kill count on the island was very low.

On the whole I found this the weakest GOT episode so far.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/22 12:58:23


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 trexmeyer wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
They spend long enough on that rock to let the ice freeze over with enough strength to support an army again. I felt like that was a good enough hint to suggest "been there quite a while, longer than a couple hours".


The the lake was terribly inconsistent with Tormund's comments about the temperature. I've lived in Alaska where it reaches -50/-60 F at night during the winter and if you're lucky is 0 in the morning. I was so acclimated to it after the first winter that 45-50 F was t-shirt and shorts weather and even in the 20's didn't require more than pants and a jacket. You'd need a temp around 0-10 at the highest for it to be cold enough to absolutely have to keep moving if you've lived in that weather. At that temperature a lake shouldn't crack under the 100lb weight of a wight to begin with and will easily freeze over during the night.



Maybe the lake is normally a geothermal hot spring that typically wouldn't ever be frozen over but now the Night King's magic is bringing a supernaturally cold winter storm along with his army so it froze over.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Also, I don't recall Jon being the reason Viserion dies. From what I saw, Viserion was looping back regardless of Jon, so I don't think he had anything to do with it. Rather, I was more bothered by:
A, the Night King's extreme accuracy and even HAVING such weapons at his disposal - did he know the Dragons were coming? Was he going to use them on Jon? Where did they come from?
B, the Night King not using it on Drogon, which had EVERYONE on him. Why go for the moving, flying, far away dragon when you can hit the dragon which is stationary, closer, and had EVERYONE on it?
C, none of the dragons even considering burning the Night King and his lieutenants, or no-one pointing at Daenerys to burn them.


A The Night King and his Wight Lieutenants have always had those ice swords and javelins. We've seen the Night King holding an ice javelin/lance in previous episodes and the Wight Jon kills at Hardhome and the Wight they capture north of the Wall both have ice swords. We just haven't seen the Night King through an ice lance at a dragon before.
B Maybe the Night King doesn't care about the people on Drogon, he just wanted his own dragon steed. I think the Night King is more desirous of revenge on the Children of the Forest than on irrelevant humans. In some ways it's easier to paint the Children of the Forest as being more evil than the Night King.
C The dragons were focused on burning the zombies that were the most immediate threat and attacking the group. True nobody pointed out the Night King and his wights to Dany but they were preoccupied with trying to get Jon to stop trying to kill thousands of zombies single handedly and get on Drogon so they could leave.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Yep - I really don't ike Jon - he is treated as the Gods gift to the world, whenever he screws up no one calls him out on it - nearest was Sansa and he bascially told her to shut up. I wanted someone like Jorah to say to him - next time - get on the fething Dragon and don't grandstand like an complete ass. Dany is besotted with him so didn't say anything.


I agree with you that Jon's plot armor can be annoying at times but I disagree with your take that Jon is treated too well. Jon is set up to be very average. He was resented by Catelyn because Ned proclaimed to the world that Jon was his bastard because he felt it was a more honorable thing to do than to tell the truth about his sister. Jon isn't groomed to be a leader or a general, that's Robb and that's why Robb was able to be King of the North and win some battles against the Lannisters. Jon was trained to be a good fighter and he got sent to the Nights Watch because there was no future for him in Winterfell. When Jon is in the Nights Watch and struggles for acceptance there and when he's north of the Wall he gets called out for being naïve and stupid by Ygritte. When he's back with the NightWatch he is the target of a mutiny and murdered by his own men. When he is resurrected he ends up King of the North because the bannermen need a Stark to rally behind but Jon is challenged by Sansa both before and after the Battle of the Bastards in which Jon gets a lot of people killed for making rash decisions and not using sound tactics. The bannermen in the North don't believe JOn's tales of the Night King's army of zombies and are greatly upset by Jon's decision to go to Dragonstone and tell him to his face it's a bad decision but Jon goes anyway.

Jon is a good fighter and his earnestness gives him some charisma and thanks to the outsized sense of duty he was taught by Ned he takes it upon himself to do a job (fight the Night King) that nobody else really wants to do and due to the feudal hierarchy on Westeros few others are capable of doing. Jon gets a lot of screen time but he's really not portrayed as being particularly capable, he's an overtly flawed character.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/22 13:58:15


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 Tamereth wrote:

But was any of that covered in the show, or do you know this from the books. I don't remember any of this being covered by the show which is a problem, as the show needs to stand by itself. Most people watching haven't read the books and shouldn't need to go online to research plot points.


The one thing that the show has never been able to replicate from the books is the "new characters that are secretly old characters" trick. Reek, Coldhands, Greybeard, and the like isn't a trick you can pull off when people are familiar with the actors. Coldhands certainly suffered more than any other in this regard. I do think his write off was the weakest part of the episode. He really deserved a scene with Jon to drop a little backstory by a fire before the Wights found them again. I find it a far bigger loss overall than figuring out the flight speed of dragons.
   
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 Kroem wrote:
was a weirdly anti-climactic story that had been lurking in the background for ages, promising a payoff the show never even attempted.

I admit that they rather wasted the character, but isn't that one of GoT strengths though? The acknowledgement that sometimes people do just die without any closure/ redemption/ heartfelt last stand against Majin Buu.


I'd argue that Martin's big deaths have been characters that we got to know well, so that the drama of it is amplified.

But that's not what we got with Benjen. Again, Benjen and Jon are close, and a real reunion would have recalled their last meeting on the Wall and been more dramatic than "Uncle Benjen, you're alive! Aaaaand now you're dead and forgotten." Finding Benjen was an important motivation for Jon. Remember that Jon was still hoping to find Benjen when he was Lord Commander -- that's how Olly lures him to his murder. The story also flirted with the notion that Benjen knew Jon's parentage. And both have been reanimated, albeit differently. You can make the case that Benjen foreshadows Jon's journey in certain ways.

You just don't write it THAT encounter that way if you have any storytelling sense. Skip the kewls of a zombie bear and save some of that time for some important character interaction.

 sebster wrote:
Jon's resistance to the icy water isn't immunity. He needed immediate treatment when he got back, and as a Northerner, and having spent time with the Wildlings beyond the Wall, I'd say he would be more survivable of it than any other one there, except Tormund.


I don't think acclimation to cold is going to make a lot of difference when experiencing severe hypothermia. Dangerously low core body temps are dangerously low core body temps.

However, it's also important to consider if Jon is a normal human anymore.

Here are Martin's comments about Beric, which might also apply to Jon.

"His memories are fading, he's got all these scars, he's becoming more and more physically hideous, because he's not a living human being anymore. His heart isn't beating, his blood isn't flowing in his veins, he's a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we're getting back to the whole fire and ice thing."


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However, it's also important to consider if Jon is a normal human anymore.

Here are Martin's comments about Beric, which might also apply to Jon.

"His memories are fading, he's got all these scars, he's becoming more and more physically hideous, because he's not a living human being anymore. His heart isn't beating, his blood isn't flowing in his veins, he's a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we're getting back to the whole fire and ice thing."

Wait, wouldn't that mean John can't have children as well? The Targaryns are doomed to extinction then right?
   
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Pretty much the entire episode was pure horse gak.

Ravens and dragons that fly at super sonic speeds. The Night King only breaks out his super deadly accurate spear to down the dragon, yet not one arrow or spear to be used against the party when they are trapped on the ice? Instead he surrounds them and stands at a distance as if for some reason he needs to take Jon alive rather than kill him and just raise his corpse. He's already attempted to kill Jon so why the restraint now other than to use it as a poor excuse to have the dragons fly to the rescue. Just terrible, not only do the dragons provide a poorly written LOTR eagles moment but on top of that Jon has to be further saved by Ben who also just appears out of nowhere. Apparently he exists only to lurk around the north on the odd chance that he'll need to save Jon. We're in the 7th season of Jon being dumb as hell and bumbling his way through things only to be saved time and time again by everyone else, it's so damn tiring.

The Night King is laser accurate at 1,000 yards with his spear but never once throw it at Jon or anyone on the ice, then only goes after the dragon flying on it's own rather than the one on the ground before it can fly away with all the people he's trying to kill? Also something that's always annoyed me about him is the lack of any sort of movement or suggestion of emotion. Even the basic undead hiss and snarl in anger which gives them at least a sort of animalistic sense of threat, he just stands around glaring and doesn't seem to move or apply any sense of effort to anything, even when he somehow hurls his spear with titanic dragon killing strength. He's about as boring on screen as Jon.


I get that people have been clamoring for the dragons to be onscreen for multiple seasons but now they are just throwing them in for thrill effect rather than spending the time writing or setting up a scene that doesn't feel like a forced version of super friends.


Arya who has all her supposed stealth training and face magic is the worst spy ever. She can apparently engineer the death of an entire throne room full of people but can't walk down the hallway without being seen in her true face by Little Finger. For a supposed master assassin she's about as sharp witted as a rock in this episode. The in fighting between them is incredibly stupid and she flips between trying to be hard core lone wolf yet fiercely close to her family and stalwart to the point she'd turn on her sister for Jon?

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/08/22 15:37:49


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 Tamereth wrote:
But was any of that covered in the show, or do you know this from the books. I don't remember any of this being covered by the show which is a problem, as the show needs to stand by itself. Most people watching haven't read the books and shouldn't need to go online to research plot points.


It's in the show, in season 6, after Benjen rescues Bran. He reveals who is he, Bran asks how, and Benjen says his raiding party was attacked by White Walkers and Benjen was stabbed and left to turn. The children found Benjen and saved him, Benjen explaining "the same way they created the walkers in the first place." To which Bran replies "a shard of dragonglass plunged in to the heart".

Like a lot of plot points, there's a chance it will come up again. Not with Benjen, who just went out with a contrived death, but it's probably gonna be used to save an important character, stop them from turning after they've been stabbed by a white walker's weapon. Maybe save Jon? You know, again

That was also the scene where Benjen made a point of spelling out that it is Bran who will be there, waiting to stop the Night King when he crosses in to the land of men. Not Danaerys or Jon, but Bran.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kroem wrote:
I admit that they rather wasted the character, but isn't that one of GoT strengths though? The acknowledgement that sometimes people do just die without any closure/ redemption/ heartfelt last stand against Majin Buu.


My issue wasn't so much that he died, but that he died a stupid death. Last season he took Bran & Meera on his horse and rode away from pursuing wights. This season he decides his horse can't take two people, so he has to stay behind.

I think they should have killed off more of the Secret Seven, they would have in past series but I suppose the unexpected killing of characters loses its shock value after a time.


Definitely agreed. But if they killed a second character, it would have been Tormund, so I'm not sure if I'm happy about that or not.

While the show has reduced its death toll of major characters as its gone on and the bait & switch of the Starks has made way for a more conventional story, this season now stands out in first letting Bronn live, and now only killing one of the seven despite what they faced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:
The whole thing was terrible, contrived, predictable and stupid. The bear attack was a indulgance - I guess it showed how incredably stupid wondering off into the ice was without anyway of getting out, any real plan. Then there was the magic island of last stands where we can watch no names get killed - yawn. The hilarious - "Run to the Wall Forest" - URGhhh what the Wall just spent days walking from and then I need to "send a Raven to Dany" - I am sorry what. Why don't I just fly there myself!

IF you want Dany to save them with her Dragons (and that was cool) - write a decent reason why she headed north days ago. Maybe she wanted to show her future subjects what she could do - whatever but that was just dismel writing.

Oh and then Jon Snow decides that he has to get those extra XP and kill some more pointless zobies - cos he is a complete tool that loses every battle he fights in and is so used to be saved by one Deus Ex machina after another he assumes he is immune to everything,. Oh look a Dragon dies because of his stupidity. Seriously Feth him.


I liked the undead bear, oh well

On the dumbness of their plan to capture a wight, there's actually a brief almost moment after they capture the wight when it starts to scream and they seem to realise they have no plan. That's kind of a thing with Jon Snow, though, and it's so specific to him I almost wonder if its deliberate - people follow him because he's principled and has won fights, but he's an absolute idiot who only escapes because he can fight and has had an amazing lucky streak. I remember people loving the Battle of the Bastards, but I wasn't sure if I liked that episode or not, because Ramsay outplayed Jon in every way. Jon got saved because Sansa brought the Knights of the Vale, who turned up just as Ramsay had brought in his flanks to slaughter a defeated Jon.

I don't know. If it was just this episode I could see it being sloppy writing. But there is a pattern to the writing of Jon screwing up, acting emotionally and without thought. I hope there's some payoff for it. If done well it could be a nice way of subverting the messiah plot. But probably not.

Apparently Cold Hands magic horse can only carry one.


What's doubly annoying is Benjen's already rescued two people on his horse, Bran & Meera, and he didn't have to get off it.

They know they are ending the show - thats mroe than many shows get - so there is no real excuse for cocking it up IMO


Yep, they've had a clear plot line from the start, with the chance to set up many elements to pay off much later in the series. And they've known for a while now how long they had to finish this thing. As you say that's more than most shows get.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/08/22 16:00:59


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Arya and Sansa will kiss and make up soon enough, not worried about that plot line.

I enjoyed the action and fight sequences but I can see some of the issues now looking back. One thing that kinda bugged me though is.. if the water makes undead thing sink and disappear forever, why didn't clegane just walk around smashing the ice? He did it at one point in the fight, why not think "Gee, this works" and do it again?

I have a feeling the ballistas at Kings Landing will be used to kill the ice dragon in the next season, after Jamie kills Cersi and becomes King in the South and Supreme General of the Living Armies of Westeros

 
   
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I hope that Sansa sending Briene away is a sign that she knows that Littlefinger is trying to get her to fight Arya. I also worry that Littlefinger was playing Sansa to get rid of Briene.
   
 
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