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str00dles1 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
It matters a great deal. People who want to play Legion will want to buy Legion products, not IA products, and vice versa. They don't just want the minis but, for each game, the rest of the corresponding components. For the purposes of each game, "extra minis" are irrelevant. Of what use would having a bunch of mono-pose IA stormtroopers, for example, be to playing Legion? They would be no use to "filling out" squads (the Legion expansions will likely come with the max number of figs and options available to a given squad). And if you just want to use them as proxies in friendly games, that is already possible.

Large model bases in IA are meant to correspond to how much space the model takes up in a grid-based game. Legion is not grid-based; it uses free form movement. The large model bases therefore are notched to accomodate using the measurement tool. Furthermore, the larger bases are quartered to show weapons arcs. Thee is no "false dilemma" here.

As a note, I don't own IA, and wont be buying legion as after demoing it at gencon, I know first hand how terrible the game is/will be.

At the end of the day, it is a slap in the face to anyone who has IA. Half of the game of IA itself is a skirmish game. You have points...upgrades...build your force. You just move on a grid. So they make the game gridless. You still roll for your damage, you roll for surges, you roll defense. You just get old GW whipping measure sticks to use and Armada movement tools. BUT need new figures...cause...well, just because.

It is a plain and simple money grab from FFG. (Which anyone whos played FFG shouldn't be surprised by). Just a new product to sell you more special dice you've seen 100 times, with special rulers you've seen 100 times.

Behavior like this is why its a common thought that FFG is becoming like old GW. Eventually, their players will grow a pair and demand better from them then its crap. Simple fact, that if the scale was the same, Legions would have a massively larger player base, as it would just make sense for IA players to buy into legions.

Can you give details on why the game is going to be horrible?

I don't really see how it's a money grab. Releasing it doesn't stop people using IA figures for exactly the game they were purchased for.

They are just releasing another game that people may or may not want. As game companies are wont to do.

J0kerr2017 wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
It matters a great deal. People who want to play Legion will want to buy Legion products, not IA products, and vice versa. They don't just want the minis but, for each game, the rest of the corresponding components. For the purposes of each game, "extra minis" are irrelevant. Of what use would having a bunch of mono-pose IA stormtroopers, for example, be to playing Legion? They would be no use to "filling out" squads (the Legion expansions will likely come with the max number of figs and options available to a given squad). And if you just want to use them as proxies in friendly games, that is already possible.

Large model bases in IA are meant to correspond to how much space the model takes up in a grid-based game. Legion is not grid-based; it uses free form movement. The large model bases therefore are notched to accomodate using the measurement tool. Furthermore, the larger bases are quartered to show weapons arcs. Thee is no "false dilemma" here.

As a note, I don't own IA, and wont be buying legion as after demoing it at gencon, I know first hand how terrible the game is/will be.

At the end of the day, it is a slap in the face to anyone who has IA. Half of the game of IA itself is a skirmish game. You have points...upgrades...build your force. You just move on a grid. So they make the game gridless. You still roll for your damage, you roll for surges, you roll defense. You just get old GW whipping measure sticks to use and Armada movement tools. BUT need new figures...cause...well, just because.

It is a plain and simple money grab from FFG. (Which anyone whos played FFG shouldn't be surprised by). Just a new product to sell you more special dice you've seen 100 times, with special rulers you've seen 100 times.

Behavior like this is why its a common thought that FFG is becoming like old GW. Eventually, their players will grow a pair and demand better from them then its crap. Simple fact, that if the scale was the same, Legions would have a massively larger player base, as it would just make sense for IA players to buy into legions.

Can you give details on why the game is going to be horrible?

Anyone whose played a FFG minis type game has played Legions. There isn't anything new here. Most games have been done in some sense before, but this is the same core mechanics as any of their other games, just large SW minis. More D8s with hits/crits/surges, more defense dice with shields, bendy movement template in armada. Measuring sticks that have been around since GWs first starter boxes. 2 Actions, move aim defense, shoot, melee. Its all very basic. Not a lot of strategy involved in it. A simplistic game. Their audience is kids/FFG fanboys/SW fanboys. I know it will sell a lot because "star wars". As for miniature games go, its bottom of the barrel. A very unimaginative game from FFG.

Vorian wrote:
I don't really see how it's a money grab. Releasing it doesn't stop people using IA figures for exactly the game they were purchased for.

They are just releasing another game that people may or may not want. As game companies are wont to do.

I never said it stopped people from using them? It does stop people from using them in tourneys that play. And some people may not let you use them at your FLGS. What I said was if they made them the same scale, it would only help their game out

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Digclaw wrote:
The Rebel Alliance wasn't actually a single army. Rogue One did a good job of showing this. It's basically an amalgam of Militia and Resistance groups. The Legion starter even hints of the mixed forces by having Duros as part of the rebel unit.

I'm aware of that, but I'd argue that the Rebel Alliance wasn't even an army. Militia, partisans, guerillas, commandos... but an army? No.

Others have mentioned the Rebels becoming more organised after the destruction of the Death Star, and that is true, but consider Hoth and Endor.

Hoth was their army and it was... Snowspeeders! Endor was their fleet. All of it I'm guessing. A mixed collection of ships and converted freighters.

Having one force being an armed to the teeth military and the other be a 'rag-tag' group of nobodies with only the hardware they've stolen or built in secret doesn't make for the greatest 'war' game, especially when the lore for the universe includes an actual war between two massive and distinct forces.

It's why I don't want to buy their Rebellion game. Sure it's based on one of my fav PC games of all time, but both myself and a friend of mine looked at it and said the same thing: But I don't want to play the Rebels!

I never played the Rebels in Rebellion. It was boring, and all the ships were made up for that game. Same thing happened again in Galactic Battlegrounds and Empire at War.

X-Wing works because you're focusing on the one area where the Rebels had tons of stuff, plus they're pulling from the old EU to spice it up (and the third faction covers anything the Empire and Rebels don't hit). And they just added the Assault Gunboat, which I've been waiting for since the game was announced... but that's a side issue...

A couple of points - Hoth was one army shorn of most of its equipment due to the conditions. Endor was their main fleet but not everything they had just everything they coud lay hands on at short notice. Hell in the Rebels TV show(which is canon) the Rebellion loses more ships and soldiers than are shown in the whole original trilogy of films and there's still a couple of seasons to go until we hit Rogue One/ANH. Crikey even Rogue One lost them almost a whole fleet over Scarif and I didn't see many if any of Blue Squadron survive that fight. The fact is the original films depicted a handful of mostly covert/commando actions and a couple of pivotal fleet actions, but if you adopt such a literal view of "screen canon" as to say "nope, that was it, that was the whole rebellion, just what we saw on-screen in the OT and nothing else anywhere ever" then the films become completely nonsensical because guerillas or otherwise what's shown in the OT couldn't ever beat the Empire, they couldn't even have survived long enough to strike Scarif let alone attempt the action over Endor. The Rebellion being bigger isn't just implied, it's necessary for the OT to make any sense.

Also, you seem to have a pretty inconsistent metric for judging what is and isn't acceptable - all that stuff they're "pulling from the EU" to "spice up" X-Wing is, err, "made up" as well. Why are things "made up" for novels or comics more valid parts of the EU than things "made up" for videogames? And if "VGEU" stuff isn't as valid for you, does that mean you don't use the Scum ships that originated in videogames?

I'm not getting at you for disliking any specific thing, it just seems like you've drawn a pretty arbitrary line through old-EU material and are criticising FFG for using stuff from the wrong side of it without really any logic to support the criticism.

On the subject of kit and equipment owned/ used by both the Alliance and the Empire, I always liked the work done by West End Games in the sourcebooks for the roleplaying game.

Most of the kit featured in those books came from the designer's access to Lucasfilm archives.

Ralph MacQuarrie's early concept paintings for ESB featured Juggernauts. They finally became AT-ATs in the movie but West End gave them to the Empire and they finally turned up in Revenge of the Sith on Kashykk.

If the new games sticks to those different speeders, tanks and so on, I consider it to not be 'made up' but equipment that always existed, it just never made it into the films.

str00dles1 wrote:

J0kerr2017 wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
It matters a great deal. People who want to play Legion will want to buy Legion products, not IA products, and vice versa. They don't just want the minis but, for each game, the rest of the corresponding components. For the purposes of each game, "extra minis" are irrelevant. Of what use would having a bunch of mono-pose IA stormtroopers, for example, be to playing Legion? They would be no use to "filling out" squads (the Legion expansions will likely come with the max number of figs and options available to a given squad). And if you just want to use them as proxies in friendly games, that is already possible.

Large model bases in IA are meant to correspond to how much space the model takes up in a grid-based game. Legion is not grid-based; it uses free form movement. The large model bases therefore are notched to accomodate using the measurement tool. Furthermore, the larger bases are quartered to show weapons arcs. Thee is no "false dilemma" here.

As a note, I don't own IA, and wont be buying legion as after demoing it at gencon, I know first hand how terrible the game is/will be.

At the end of the day, it is a slap in the face to anyone who has IA. Half of the game of IA itself is a skirmish game. You have points...upgrades...build your force. You just move on a grid. So they make the game gridless. You still roll for your damage, you roll for surges, you roll defense. You just get old GW whipping measure sticks to use and Armada movement tools. BUT need new figures...cause...well, just because.

It is a plain and simple money grab from FFG. (Which anyone whos played FFG shouldn't be surprised by). Just a new product to sell you more special dice you've seen 100 times, with special rulers you've seen 100 times.

Behavior like this is why its a common thought that FFG is becoming like old GW. Eventually, their players will grow a pair and demand better from them then its crap. Simple fact, that if the scale was the same, Legions would have a massively larger player base, as it would just make sense for IA players to buy into legions.

Can you give details on why the game is going to be horrible?

Anyone whose played a FFG minis type game has played Legions. There isn't anything new here. Most games have been done in some sense before, but this is the same core mechanics as any of their other games, just large SW minis. More D8s with hits/crits/surges, more defense dice with shields, bendy movement template in armada. Measuring sticks that have been around since GWs first starter boxes. 2 Actions, move aim defense, shoot, melee. Its all very basic. Not a lot of strategy involved in it. A simplistic game. Their audience is kids/FFG fanboys/SW fanboys. I know it will sell a lot because "star wars". As for miniature games go, its bottom of the barrel. A very unimaginative game from FFG.

Vorian wrote:
I don't really see how it's a money grab. Releasing it doesn't stop people using IA figures for exactly the game they were purchased for.

They are just releasing another game that people may or may not want. As game companies are wont to do.

I never said it stopped people from using them? It does stop people from using them in tourneys that play. And some people may not let you use them at your FLGS. What I said was if they made them the same scale, it would only help their game out

No, I mean it doesn't stop people using their stuff for what they actually bought it for.

They have lost nothing, they bought their game knowing what it was and nothing stops them still playing their game.

The existence of a different game is something completely separate.

Considering that every GW game is based on the same conceits and have a similar die structure, the argument that Legion is just another FFG game is silly when most of GW is just another GW game. Sure, this uses a lot of FFG tried and true mechanics, but that's a positive overall and they do enough to add more mechanics.

There a difference of degrees a bit in this, but some here are trying too hard to dislike something. But that's okay, this is a nostalgia driven market and people have strong opinions on their particular brand of nostalgia.

One thing people are forgetting is that these demo games are not using the full rules. They're using a small set of upgrades, and they aren't even using the new suppression mechanic that's already built into the cards. You can see the yellow symbol and it's mentioned by demo givers.

J0kerr2017 wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
It matters a great deal. People who want to play Legion will want to buy Legion products, not IA products, and vice versa. They don't just want the minis but, for each game, the rest of the corresponding components. For the purposes of each game, "extra minis" are irrelevant. Of what use would having a bunch of mono-pose IA stormtroopers, for example, be to playing Legion? They would be no use to "filling out" squads (the Legion expansions will likely come with the max number of figs and options available to a given squad). And if you just want to use them as proxies in friendly games, that is already possible.

Large model bases in IA are meant to correspond to how much space the model takes up in a grid-based game. Legion is not grid-based; it uses free form movement. The large model bases therefore are notched to accomodate using the measurement tool. Furthermore, the larger bases are quartered to show weapons arcs. Thee is no "false dilemma" here.

As a note, I don't own IA, and wont be buying legion as after demoing it at gencon, I know first hand how terrible the game is/will be.

At the end of the day, it is a slap in the face to anyone who has IA. Half of the game of IA itself is a skirmish game. You have points...upgrades...build your force. You just move on a grid. So they make the game gridless. You still roll for your damage, you roll for surges, you roll defense. You just get old GW whipping measure sticks to use and Armada movement tools. BUT need new figures...cause...well, just because.

It is a plain and simple money grab from FFG. (Which anyone whos played FFG shouldn't be surprised by). Just a new product to sell you more special dice you've seen 100 times, with special rulers you've seen 100 times.

Behavior like this is why its a common thought that FFG is becoming like old GW. Eventually, their players will grow a pair and demand better from them then its crap. Simple fact, that if the scale was the same, Legions would have a massively larger player base, as it would just make sense for IA players to buy into legions.

Can you give details on why the game is going to be horrible?

The game will likely be fine, but it's frustrating to have the release schedule basically reset. Great, now we get to look forward to a slow drip of characters that already exist in IA. Want Wedge, Admiral piett, 4-LOM/Zuckuss, Dr. Aphra, the rest of Phoenix Squad? Have fun waiting for 2020. FFG wants to resell you a 15% larger ANH Luke/Han/Leia first. BTW, have fun with your terrain being too small!

If they'd released Legion expansion decks/conversion bases to let you use your IA collection they wouldn't have to start the product line from square one again. THAT's what is particularly frustrating to me. It's like if the PS5 came out, and the initial 50 releases were mostly just PS 4 games we already had. In other words, there was potential but they threw it out for Malibu Stacy with a new hat.

I'll just say.. my son has IA and very few additional purchases from that line. If it can work in this setting.. hey.. cool.. I'm not counting on that in any capacity though.. nor am I bitter that the items aren't immediately able to be used.

IMO.. it's like being upset that Magic the Gathering has cards that you can't use because reasons.. or that you can't take a Bishop or a Queen in a game of checkers.. even though they're designed for the same board. I've sat through so many iterations of 40k where models were just simply not supported anymore that I'm literally numb to this sort of criticism.

Not impressed if the scale change is true. In the past if you bought Dust Tactics models you could use them in Dust Warfare, going with the same scale would encourage people who play IA to pick up Legions.

 MLaw wrote:

IMO.. it's like being upset that Magic the Gathering has cards that you can't use because reasons..

It's more like if they decided to make Magic cards square going forward to screw you out of using your collection, then reprinted the basic set to make you buy the same crap all over, rather than develop new cards (but, like if cards didnt have collector value and were all still in print). People don't like blatant cash grabs and double dipping. When a company gets known for doing that, it devalues their product, since it erodes confidence a purchase will be useful in the long term. See the LOTR bare bones DVD release before the extended editions everyone wanted anyways.

To me it says they don't have confidence in anything but the basic main characters being big sellers, so want to sell slight variations of the same Luke/Leia/Vaders to new customers rather than expand the line's depth. They'll get away with it, cuz Star Wars, but that doesnt make it also kind of cruddy.

It generally looks like IA's skirmish mode just never really took off so they're rebranding it and bumping up the models a bit to give it focus.

It looks interesting enough, but at the moment the primary hook seems to be that its Star Wars as opposed to a game mechanic that helps it stand out from the crowd. I actually really like the potential of Descent's dice system in a tabletop game but I'd be far more excited if there was a resource or activation mechanic that made it seem more unique from a gameplay perspective.

I think what gets me very interested is it appears to take the mechanics I like out of Bolt action (activation, and suppression)....and then they made it Star Wars.

I got to see this first hand at Gen Con and I'm completely sold. A few random thoughts...

1. Infantry models have no facing. Larger based models have both facing and firing arcs. An Imperial Speeder Bike, for example, is equipped with some sort of blaster cannon and a pistol. The pistol can be fired in any direction. The cannon can only be fired from the front arc. I like this. It's like 7th Edition and older 40k, but cleaner with clearly defined facings and firing arcs for all 'vehicles'.

2. Units have upgrade slots. A Stormtrooper unit starts with 4 models equipped with basic E-11 Blasters. The unit has 4 different upgrade slots. These upgrade slots can be used to either adds models or improve the effectiveness of the existing models. In the core box, we know three of the upgrades can simultaneously be used to add a basic dude, a heavy blaster dude and a rocket launcher dude, resulting in a 7 man squad. This is SO much easier than the current 40k list building. Grab a unit card and then add upgrade cards to match the upgrade icons on the unit card. Add up the points.

3. The Rebel side of the core box has 16 models. The Imperial side has 17 models. We know that this is roughly half of a "standard" army. In other words, a full sized army will likely be somewhere in the neighborhood of 30-40 models. This is a relatively small model count skirmish game. It's definitely not meant to represent large scale battles. It also means that ~$180 will get you two more or less full sized armies.

4. Standard games will be played on a 6'x3' board, exactly like Runewars and Armada. Much like Runewars and Armada, most of the action will probably take place on a 3'x3' portion of the larger map.

5. There will be an official Organized Play system, just as with every other FFG game. There will be a well defined set of tournament rules. You'll be able to realistically expect to walk into a Store Championship anywhere in the US and not have to worry about local house rules since official FFG events don't allow house rules.

6. There will almost certainly be a third Scum (think Boba Fett/Jabba/etc) faction at some point. X-Wing is one of the most commercially successful tabletop games and it has only three factions. Armada is one of the most commercially successful tabletop game and it has only two factions. Two for now and probably a third later will be enough.

7. It's definitely not a child's game. The mechanics are similar to X-Wing and Armada in the sense that you have movement sticks and a command phase. The Legion command system adds a layer of complexity to the game that doesn't exist in 40k. Do I use this command this turn or wait until later? Each command is a single use and you have 7 to use over the course of 6 turns. There are a lot of armies in 40k where the player is sort of on auto-pilot. Ork horde? Run forward, charge as soon as you can. Spammed flyers? Fly around and take out the heavy weapons first. I don't think you'll see this sort of no brainer, auto-pilot list in Legion. Those sorts of lists don't really exist in X-Wing, Armada or Runewars.

8. Speaking of Runewars, this is not Runewars. Runewars is a rank and file fantasy game. Star Wars Legion is a skirmish scifi game. They have entirely different command/action and initiative systems. Other than being played on a tabletop and rolling dice, they're really not very similar at all.

Essentially, this is a cheaper version of 40k that simplifies game mechanics while maintaining a high level of tactical and strategic complexity. It will have top tier organized play support. Oh yeah, and it's Star Wars.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LunarSol wrote:
It generally looks like IA's skirmish mode just never really took off so they're rebranding it and bumping up the models a bit to give it focus.

It looks interesting enough, but at the moment the primary hook seems to be that its Star Wars as opposed to a game mechanic that helps it stand out from the crowd. I actually really like the potential of Descent's dice system in a tabletop game but I'd be far more excited if there was a resource or activation mechanic that made it seem more unique from a gameplay perspective.

I've seen both played... Legion is NOTHING like Imperial Assault. Imperial Assault is effectively Final Fantasy Tactics with Lightsabers. Legion isn't. They're very, very different games.

Imperial Assault = Descent in Space.
Legion = Smallish model count Star Wars 40k with FFG rules.

 LunarSol wrote:
It generally looks like IA's skirmish mode just never really took off so they're rebranding it and bumping up the models a bit to give it focus.

It looks interesting enough, but at the moment the primary hook seems to be that its Star Wars as opposed to a game mechanic that helps it stand out from the crowd. I actually really like the potential of Descent's dice system in a tabletop game but I'd be far more excited if there was a resource or activation mechanic that made it seem more unique from a gameplay perspective.

There is a special resource/activation mechanic. I explained it upthread. Or do you mean something else?

I don't understand this "slapped in the face" thing. You bought IA to play IA. Your IA figures (and all the other IA tokens) work in IA. What more did anyone think they were entitled to by buying IA?

Yeah. This is a totally different game from IA. IA is more of a roleplaying boardgame. Not a table top wargame.

Well, it's possible that some people bought the game just for the "multiplayer" skirmish system, and that people may believe that the IA skirmish system is going to be discontinued/given less resources from now on, so their minis will have less subjective value, and being of a different scale they may not be able to easily make the jump with the stuff they already have.

I mean, "slap in the face" or "dishonest marketing" or whatever are IMHO too strong remarks for this, but they could have made the minis 100% compatible if they wanted to... and they didn't want to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah. This is a totally different game from IA. IA is more of a roleplaying boardgame. Not a table top wargame.

That is very true, at least for the regular game. But for the skirmish I'm not so sure.

 Kriswall wrote:
I got to see this first hand at Gen Con and I'm completely sold. A few random thoughts...

1. Infantry models have no facing. Larger based models have both facing and firing arcs. An Imperial Speeder Bike, for example, is equipped with some sort of blaster cannon and a pistol. The pistol can be fired in any direction. The cannon can only be fired from the front arc. I like this. It's like 7th Edition and older 40k, but cleaner with clearly defined facings and firing arcs for all 'vehicles'.

2. Units have upgrade slots. A Stormtrooper unit starts with 4 models equipped with basic E-11 Blasters. The unit has 4 different upgrade slots. These upgrade slots can be used to either adds models or improve the effectiveness of the existing models. In the core box, we know three of the upgrades can simultaneously be used to add a basic dude, a heavy blaster dude and a rocket launcher dude, resulting in a 7 man squad. This is SO much easier than the current 40k list building. Grab a unit card and then add upgrade cards to match the upgrade icons on the unit card. Add up the points.

3. The Rebel side of the core box has 16 models. The Imperial side has 17 models. We know that this is roughly half of a "standard" army. In other words, a full sized army will likely be somewhere in the neighborhood of 30-40 models. This is a relatively small model count skirmish game. It's definitely not meant to represent large scale battles. It also means that ~$180 will get you two more or less full sized armies.

4. Standard games will be played on a 6'x3' board, exactly like Runewars and Armada. Much like Runewars and Armada, most of the action will probably take place on a 3'x3' portion of the larger map.

5. There will be an official Organized Play system, just as with every other FFG game. There will be a well defined set of tournament rules. You'll be able to realistically expect to walk into a Store Championship anywhere in the US and not have to worry about local house rules since official FFG events don't allow house rules.

6. There will almost certainly be a third Scum (think Boba Fett/Jabba/etc) faction at some point. X-Wing is one of the most commercially successful tabletop games and it has only three factions. Armada is one of the most commercially successful tabletop game and it has only two factions. Two for now and probably a third later will be enough.

7. It's definitely not a child's game. The mechanics are similar to X-Wing and Armada in the sense that you have movement sticks and a command phase. The Legion command system adds a layer of complexity to the game that doesn't exist in 40k. Do I use this command this turn or wait until later? Each command is a single use and you have 7 to use over the course of 6 turns. There are a lot of armies in 40k where the player is sort of on auto-pilot. Ork horde? Run forward, charge as soon as you can. Spammed flyers? Fly around and take out the heavy weapons first. I don't think you'll see this sort of no brainer, auto-pilot list in Legion. Those sorts of lists don't really exist in X-Wing, Armada or Runewars.

8. Speaking of Runewars, this is not Runewars. Runewars is a rank and file fantasy game. Star Wars Legion is a skirmish scifi game. They have entirely different command/action and initiative systems. Other than being played on a tabletop and rolling dice, they're really not very similar at all.

Essentially, this is a cheaper version of 40k that simplifies game mechanics while maintaining a high level of tactical and strategic complexity. It will have top tier organized play support. Oh yeah, and it's Star Wars.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LunarSol wrote:
It generally looks like IA's skirmish mode just never really took off so they're rebranding it and bumping up the models a bit to give it focus.

It looks interesting enough, but at the moment the primary hook seems to be that its Star Wars as opposed to a game mechanic that helps it stand out from the crowd. I actually really like the potential of Descent's dice system in a tabletop game but I'd be far more excited if there was a resource or activation mechanic that made it seem more unique from a gameplay perspective.

I've seen both played... Legion is NOTHING like Imperial Assault. Imperial Assault is effectively Final Fantasy Tactics with Lightsabers. Legion isn't. They're very, very different games.

Imperial Assault = Descent in Space.
Legion = Smallish model count Star Wars 40k with FFG rules.

1. Well to each their own, but for the most part, 7th edition was garbage. Hot Garbage. Front/Side/back arcs don't make or break a game by any means. Its all abstract anyways.

2. This is easier how? 8th 40k list building has 2 variants. Power, take the number is says right there, or points. GW is working on a free army builder for 8th, justl ike their AoS one which is really good. Also Battlescribe is really good. It literally takes me a min or so to make a 2k army.

3. "Full" armies maybe. Realistic armies no. You will pretty much be forced to buy the stormtrooper pack, the speeder pack, the rebel trooper pack for the better upgrade cards that they will have. Its like every other FFG game. 2 core boxes is a good start, but no where near what you will actually want, or will it be enough ti play in any form of event/tourney.

4. Which is a bad flaw. FFG chose 3x6 just to be different then 4x6. Movement trays like runwars 100% never see half of the battle. everyone places their stuff in the middle. while this game has more movement flexibility, its a skirmish game. 4x4 should have been the size.

5. Other popular games have that though. This is nothing different. 40k has ITC, Warlords their own, etc.

6. I'll give you X wing is the most popular, as how available it is, no building, already painted, not that many purchases needed and takes up little space. Armada? No even close dude. Vastly more expensive, takes up twice the space, you only find it in actual game stores (not target like x wing) takes vastly more time to play, and highly more complex. I don't know where you got this "fact" from but its no where near one of the most popular.

7. But one third of its market is for younger gamers. Yes, activating one model then the other player and back and fourth is a better system, for any game as it does increase tactics. 40k has that major flaw, that it wont ever change unfortunately. I own rune wars and it has a lot of issues of "no brainer" actions you are going to do. After turn 2 most of your actions are always the same on your dials and there isn't much new things you are doing.

8. You are correct

Cheaper version of 40k? No, not at all. first, its not going to be cheap. Enjoy the hefty price hike for having the star wars ip. It will make rune wars look more appealing im sure. Take rune wars and add another 10-20 bucks per package depending on size. You will also need to buy the boxes when they come out for the stat cards they wont give you in the core set. Out the gate, your easily looking at 3-400 bucks to have options. then they will sell you dice packs, as NO FFG game ever has enough dice. Then extra movement sticks, multipule versions of the same character, etc.

You act like 8th 40k is some highly difficult game, when its also very simplified. Also, you want small/cheaper 40k? Play the many variations of Kill Team. It will have prize support, til FFG decides to do a different game

Same size, different size - people will have the same complaint: "I don't wanna buy this fig again!" This is because the real issue is that IA and Legion are different games and their components are not cross compatible.

Honestly, I don't think there is much overlap between Legion and IA skirmish either. But there again, you can use your Legion infantry figs in IA, including IA skirmish. Nothing is stopping you but you. What a slap in the face!

 Albertorius wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
It generally looks like IA's skirmish mode just never really took off so they're rebranding it and bumping up the models a bit to give it focus.

It looks interesting enough, but at the moment the primary hook seems to be that its Star Wars as opposed to a game mechanic that helps it stand out from the crowd. I actually really like the potential of Descent's dice system in a tabletop game but I'd be far more excited if there was a resource or activation mechanic that made it seem more unique from a gameplay perspective.

There is a special resource/activation mechanic. I explained it upthread. Or do you mean something else?

Just missed your post and both the demos I've seen recorded at GenCon and the article on the site gloss over it pretty heavily. Found your post though and it sounds potentially interesting. I didn't really care for the command cards in Imperial Assault though (X-Wing bloat is definitely giving me a bias towards such thing) but I'll be keeping an eye on how it works. Thanks!

 Manchu wrote:
Same size, different size - people will have the same complaint: "I don't wanna buy this fig again!" This is because the real issue is that IA and Legion are different games and their components are not cross compatible.

Honestly, I don't think there is much overlap between Legion and IA skirmish either. But there again, you can use your Legion infantry figs in IA, including IA skirmish. Nothing is stopping you but you. What a slap in the face!

But the fact remains that is literally made no sense to change the scale. If I had figures from one game, and knew I can use them in another (especially a game that's the same IP!) I would buy into the other game, because I had models and it made it easier to get into.

Also as mentioned, it resets the production clock on actual new stuff. Great, I get to buy another darth vader, and another luke, and another leia...Nothing from new films.

Your missing the point that no one is complaining they cant use their Legions figs in IA Skirmish. No one is saying that. First I doubt it would work as I doubt the bases will fit in the squares, and youll already have those models. People are saying if the scale matched, they could use it in the new game, which wont work. As youll have a lot of mixed scales.

You have to buy Legion to play Legion. It literally does not matter at all whether you already have IA figures or not.

Because IA and Legion are separate games, the "production clock" you are talking about will be reset no matter what size the figures are.

There is actually no real use for IA figs in Legion, regardless of what size the figures are. Legion expansions come with as many figs as you can use in a unit. If you want to use IA figs as proxies in friendly games, it can be done - no slap in the face there, either.

 Manchu wrote:
Same size, different size - people will have the same complaint: "I don't wanna buy this fig again!" This is because the real issue is that IA and Legion are different games and their components are not cross compatible.

I wonder if part of the problem is that the figures are almost the same size.

If they had made Legion a 15mm game, I think it would have been more positively received. It would have been clearly designed as a different scale, and so the fact that you can't use IA figures wouldn't be an issue.

But making Legion just that little bit bigger for no apparent reason makes it look like they wanted to make a game in the same scale but were deliberately preventing you from using your existing figures, which comes across as a cash grab.

 LunarSol wrote:
Just missed your post and both the demos I've seen recorded at GenCon and the article on the site gloss over it pretty heavily. Found your post though and it sounds potentially interesting. I didn't really care for the command cards in Imperial Assault though (X-Wing bloat is definitely giving me a bias towards such thing) but I'll be keeping an eye on how it works. Thanks!

Glad to help. The Command cards from the box are basically a way to determine what are you going to favor that turn, wether activation speed or a bigger control over what units get activated, except for the special character command cards (both Vader and Luke have 3 special cards each, so I suppose all commander will have 3 too) that usually allow you to do something else too.

By way of example, one of Vader's special Command cards is called "Master of Evil": it's a 3 pips card, which means that it's quite possible that his side will go second, and allows the player to issue orders to Vader and 2 other units. Additionally, when you issue an order to Vader, he gains 1 dodge token, and you activate it, each enemy trooper unit at range 1-2 of him gains 3 suppression tokens.

insaniak,

I think them being "almost the same" is indeed a kind of red herring that people are latching onto while the actual underlying issue is FFG does not make cross compatible game components. The scale difference might be for no "apparent" reason but there are reasons nonetheless, as described above.

If Legion was 15mm, the "slap in the face" comments would be directed at something like having different proprietary dice for Legion.

15mm Legion would have been more positively received by well established war gamers. Don't think that would be the case for the wider target demographic.

 Manchu wrote:
insaniak,

I think them being "almost the same" is indeed a kind of red herring that people are latching onto while the actual underlying issue is FFG does not make cross compatible game components. The scale difference might be for no "apparent" reason but there are reasons nonetheless, as described above.

If Legion was 15mm, the "slap in the face" comments would be directed at something like having different proprietary dice for Legion.

15mm Legion would have been more positively received by well established war gamers. Don't think that would be the case for the wider target demographic.

Yea, but then we would bitch that we couldn't use our X-Wing minis with it. Although it's "technically" at 1/270th (or close to 6mm) the scales in X-Wing vary wildly. Like the A-Wing, which is actually closer to the 15mm size than the "almost 6mm" size.

Just can't win dammit!

Whatever, I'm over it really. Until my sons see it and want it.

Just another game for the shelf/table/gray pile of shame.

We are wargamers, we will find a way to bitch.

 Manchu wrote:
We are wargamers, we will find a way to bitch.

I can see it now, t-shirts saying:
Wargamers: Have game, will complain.

I will wait to see how Legions goes after a while and what future releases will be like before I consider buying into it.
I waited on X-Wing and glad I did. They eventually released Scum and I was sold on the game. So I am hoping with future releases it makes them game much more appealing than it is right now.

 Manchu wrote:
insaniak,

I think them being "almost the same" is indeed a kind of red herring that people are latching onto while the actual underlying issue is FFG does not make cross compatible game components. The scale difference might be for no "apparent" reason but there are reasons nonetheless, as described above.

What are the reasons, though, other than it's more profitable to resell the same Luke twice than make something new? I'd like a large variety of Star Wars figures. I'm never going to get that if they keep rebooting with a new scale after they burn through the popular characters. They make the Star Wars RPG, it would be nice to use both, but no, they want to make it just different enough to look stupid. So "we want to keep selling you the same repackaged few things" isn't a very compelling reason from a consumer perspective. Deep down, we know companies dont give a damn about the customer other than how much they can squeeze us for. It's the naked greed in this case that is off-putting.

If Legion was 15mm, the "slap in the face" comments would be directed at something like having different proprietary dice for Legion.

15mm Legion would have been more positively received by well established war gamers. Don't think that would be the case for the wider target demographic.

Strongly disagree on the 15mm issue. That allows for different scales of conflict and more vehicle/artillery oriented. That is a new experience. I wouldn't be interested, because 15mm figures are just too damn small for me, but at least it offers a reason to be a different scale other than "feth you, buy all the same stuff again!"