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 Digclaw wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:
on tatooine the tuskens very well could mount an effective force, most armies in star wars are local anyhow. The 2 factions are not a problem due to the variety within the factions. realistically 40k has imperial and other, and most of that other is terribad anyhow.

That's not a realistic comparison in the slightest. You're going to compare Empire/Rebels to the wealth of things that 40K does, even when a lot of them are Marines.

And what more factions could we get? A Scum faction and then... *crickets* Everything else suggested is just some variation on Scum.

I said it earlier, the scope of the Galactic Civil War does not befit a wargame (or even a skirmish game). The Rebels don't have anything unless you make it up.

One of the latter reports evens says "Snowspeeders were mentioned." Yeah, no gak they were. That's the only ground vehicle the Rebels have (in the movies, and without making anything up). At best you can get a U-Wing now thanks to Rogue One, but that's it.

Even in the minis we've seen so far one of the things the Rebels have is stolen from the prequel era.

I think Star Wars, as a whole, since being bought by Disney, has a prequel-era phobia. Everything is so solidly focused on the original trilogy and not daring to deviate from that (Ep 7 was the biggest Ep 4 love-letter ever written) that it's leaving a wealth of material in the dust. The Clone Wars were a war, a real war between fleets and armies with campaigns and battle lines. The Galactic Civil War was more of an insurgency. One is fit for a wargame/skirmish game. The other is not.

The Rebel Alliance wasn't actually a single army. Rogue One did a good job of showing this. It's basically an amalgam of Militia and Resistance groups. The Legion starter even hints of the mixed forces by having Duros as part of the rebel unit.

It was up to that point. After Yavin it seems things got considerably more organised.

After all, The Emperor tipped his hand with the destruction of Alderaan, then promptly lost his main weapon of fear. After that, there was no hiding his agenda.

Rebels also touched on that. There being dozens of individual rebel groups which only eventually coalesced into a semi-unified force.

I can see it now, I can finally run a strike force of all Mon Calamari.

 Vertrucio wrote:
I can see it now, I can finally run a strike force of all Mon Calamari.

On Tatooine! Desert Squids FTW.

 Digclaw wrote:
The Rebel Alliance wasn't actually a single army. Rogue One did a good job of showing this. It's basically an amalgam of Militia and Resistance groups. The Legion starter even hints of the mixed forces by having Duros as part of the rebel unit.

I'm aware of that, but I'd argue that the Rebel Alliance wasn't even an army. Militia, partisans, guerillas, commandos... but an army? No.

Others have mentioned the Rebels becoming more organised after the destruction of the Death Star, and that is true, but consider Hoth and Endor.

Hoth was their army and it was... Snowspeeders! Endor was their fleet. All of it I'm guessing. A mixed collection of ships and converted freighters.

Having one force being an armed to the teeth military and the other be a 'rag-tag' group of nobodies with only the hardware they've stolen or built in secret doesn't make for the greatest 'war' game, especially when the lore for the universe includes an actual war between two massive and distinct forces.

It's why I don't want to buy their Rebellion game. Sure it's based on one of my fav PC games of all time, but both myself and a friend of mine looked at it and said the same thing: But I don't want to play the Rebels!

I never played the Rebels in Rebellion. It was boring, and all the ships were made up for that game. Same thing happened again in Galactic Battlegrounds and Empire at War.

X-Wing works because you're focusing on the one area where the Rebels had tons of stuff, plus they're pulling from the old EU to spice it up (and the third faction covers anything the Empire and Rebels don't hit). And they just added the Assault Gunboat, which I've been waiting for since the game was announced... but that's a side issue...

Some notes (I have contacts "on the inside", also was at the In-flight report):

-FFG has a total license to Star Wars, including prequel and non-canon content. While FFG takes some direction from Disney when it comes to pushing merchandise related to the latest film, there is nothing stopping the from pursuing prequel era content if they choose, likewise they have a free hand to use Legends/non-canon content, as Lucasfilm does not consider FFGs product lines to be reflective of canon. In other words, its FFG's own design studio that is limiting the influence of prequel content in its product lines. While I'm at it, the notion that Disney/Lucasfilm is anti-prequel is entirely incorrect. While it has not been a major focus, theres actually been a fair amount of prequel era stuff released by way of comics and marvels. In fact, since the Disney buyout there has been more prequel era content released than there has been sequel era (although I would have to admit that a major motion film like TFA, and soon TLJ, grossly outweigh the importance of novels, etc.).

-FFG essentially went out of its way to limit the ability for IA minis to be compatible with Legions. The squad sizes for units in Legions vary from the packaging of equivalent IA models (meaning you would end up with extra minis/need to buy multiple IA packs to get a single squad of Legion minis in some instances), the size difference between minis is quite large in some instances, and by going with IA minis you would have to find another means to acquire the tokens and cards needed to use them. Additionally, the difference in base size will lead to some minor play issues, and when it comes to larger models (i.e. anything larger than a standard infantry piece), the IA minis are essentially entirely unusable as they lack the notch in their bases required to make use of the Legions movement tool. Additionally, FFG will not be allowing IA minis (nor other manufacturers miniatures) to be used in their organized play events for Legions.

-Legions will be strictly kept in the GCW era (at least for the forseeable future). Dont expect Prequel or Sequel content anytime soon. Additional factions don't seem likely either as they want to focus on the fight between the Empire and Rebel Alliance, though we may see a sort of "sub-faction" situation arise where its possible to make a Wookie army or a Mandalorian force out of the options released for the Rebels/Empire.

-When asked about the possibility of an AT-AT and similar large models being released for Legions, the response from the head of FFG's design studio was "Well, that sure would be pretty cool, wouldn't it?" Followed by a long pause and a large gak eating grin. I would understand that to mean that AT-AT's are all but confirmed.

chaos0xomega wrote:

-When asked about the possibility of an AT-AT and similar large models being released for Legions, the response from the head of FFG's design studio was "Well, that sure would be pretty cool, wouldn't it?" Followed by a long pause and a large gak eating grin. I would understand that to mean that AT-AT's are all but confirmed.

Thats how it begins. You'll end with Ewoks fighting agains't the Death Star with rocks, and then how you balance that!

The only minis with notched bases in the core box are the vehicles.

The AT-RT from the core box is from the PT.

IA is a board game, Legion is a tabletop miniature wargame. It makes sense they would make new and better/more detailed models because the models are a lot more key than the more gamepiece style of IA. The butthurt of people complaining they aren't cross compatible is just amusing. Brand new game=new models not a big surprise. X wing and Armada also are not compatible. Though with all of these games combined imagine if a campaign book came out that allowed you to fight over planets/control systems and do ground/space battles akin of empire at war campaigns but in tabletop form.

I personally have no interest in any prequel related stuff. And seeing as how we're coming up on the second movie of a new modern trilogy with the resistance vs FO. I kind of would like to see that era get a little more attention in a while after this game is established. Though I know they'd rather tug on everyones nostalgia with the GCW first.

I'll be very interested in this as soon as it's viable to have an all Ewok army. I want to kick some Stormtrooper butt with sticks and rocks. I'll smash Vader with a log. My army will be led by The Golden One himself, C-3PO.

TBH I would love a Phantom Menace Battle of Naboo small-scale wargame. And yea I think TPM is total gak.

 Thargrim wrote:
IA is a board game, Legion is a tabletop miniature wargame. It makes sense they would make new and better/more detailed models because the models are a lot more key than the more gamepiece style of IA. The butthurt of people complaining they aren't cross compatible is just amusing. Brand new game=new models not a big surprise. X wing and Armada also are not compatible.

Your counterpoint is that X-wing and Armada are not scale compatible? Do you realize that your example would mean that the basic capital ships would be roughly 4ft-6ft long if they were remotely to scale? And that's with the Tantive IV sliding scale extended further. It's a horrible example and has nothing to do with the 20% increase shown here.

As for Legion and IA, it was reasonable to hope that they'd be compatible scale wise but it's not surprising that FFG (especially post-Asmodee FFG that's trying to emulate 1990's GW) decided against it. In their (admittedly tepid) defense, the license is likely quite expensive and I do understand the need to recoup those costs. That said... it's IMO a poke in the eye to consumers and definitely at their expense.

It actually makes no sense for IA and Legion to be the same scale. They are unrelated product lines. Plus even if they were, people would still complain ("why are they making the same characters in the same scale, so greedy!") - truth is, there is no pleasing everyone.

There isn't necessarily a consistent IA scale anyhow. But there is nothing to stop you from using Legion models in IA.

 Manchu wrote:
TBH I would love a Phantom Menace Battle of Naboo small-scale wargame. And yea I think TPM is total gak.

The prequels had some really great ground wars. The original trilogy is still king IMO for the space battles.. but I hated the designs for almost everything the droids used in space.. and the fighter scenes in the prequels had a Fast and Furious vibe to me.. While not getting Clone Wars era content in the form of scenarios or setting.. we already see the AT-RT staring us in the face and that's a CW era thing.. so getting an AT-TE or some of that other stuff doesn't strike me as out of the question. Especially if they're hurting for releases.

The rebels not being an army.. is like saying the Revolutionary War wasn't fought by an American Army. Having a decentralized force is not the same as not having one though I will concede that the movies and books didn't do the best job addressing the structure of that organization. I will say that there was SOME documented organization and that can be found here:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rebel_command_insignia

If you notice, they go so far as to delineate between "branches" of the Alliance much like the US military is divided into various branches.
Further, they have intelligence assets that relay information, including but not limited to Death Star plans back to their version of CENTCOM resulting in various instances throughout the films (all of them) in military interdiction, planetary strikes, and large scale assaults spanning an armada and ground forces.

One major reason the Rebel Alliance (many armies and armadas joined together similar to the Allies or Axis in either WW) always seem so scattered and under-equipped, is because they were getting their asses kicked. The Empire kept finding their bases (Dantoine, Hoth, Yavin IV). The Rebellion did posses vehicles that never appeared in the movies but in the stories central to the films, those locations were under siege and in most cases were set up as makeshift bases. As soon as they would set up shop, the big bad wolf would come and blow the whole thing down. Keep in mind too that the idea of a Rebellion started basically in Episode 3. Luke Skywalker was 19 when Ep IV happened. So in less than 20 years they've mobilized an Armada and established a roving command. Ep VII is 30 years after Ep VI and we really don't actually know much about the Rebellion's forces other than they can respond to intel REALLY fast with air support. We haven't really seen a major ground battle at this point but other sources (books games etc) have explained very clearly that the Rebels do in fact have heavy armor at their disposal. Logistically, an armored division is a lot more difficult to maintain and move, so in the early running battles, there wasn't room for any of that.

 Manchu wrote:
It actually makes no sense for IA and Legion to be the same scale. They are unrelated product lines. Plus even if they were, people would still complain ("why are they making the same characters in the same scale, so greedy!") - truth is, there is no pleasing everyone.

There isn't necessarily a consistent IA scale anyhow. But there is nothing to stop you from using Legion models in IA.

Unrelated product lines? From the same company, both minis-centric to be played on the tabletop, from the same license? I suppose you think that GW should have made Space Hulk at 40mm scale? While there are arguments to be made both for and against keeping the same scale, I think it's incredibly inaccurate to say that it makes "no sense". I'd agree with you if it were designed and sold as a truly bigger scope game like Halo Ground War, DZC, or Epic but to come out with a board game with wargame sized minis and then two years later make a size incompatible wargame is plain and simple done at their consumers' expense and motivated only by dollar signs.

FFG is not GW. GW sells minis. The rules they publish are in service to that. By contrast, FFG sells games. Some of those games have miniatures among their various components, including proprietary dice, cards, tokens, and measurement tools. It doesn't matter that IA and Legion both have miniatures as components; you need to look at the whole picture. Even if they were the same size, simply having IA miniatures wouldn't be enough to play Legion.

GW sells minis and not games? So WHFB/SIgmar/40k etc. are so Popular because people just like buying and painting minis, and not actually playing the game? Yes, there are people who buy them to collect, but most of people buy it to actually play the game. Mostly for wargame, some for boardgames(which are not half as bad), but still, for a 'game' primary, not just minis.

No, GW sells rulesets in service to its primary line of business, selling miniatures.

 Manchu wrote:
It actually makes no sense for IA and Legion to be the same scale. They are unrelated product lines.

But having them in the same scale would allow people to buy one for the other and vice versa. You'd open up a new opportunity for sale. Those who had one might want to try the other. How is that a bad thing?

Plus someone with a lot of existing stuff sees this new game, figures he's got a ton of it already, so why not take the further plunge?

 Manchu wrote:
Plus even if they were, people would still complain ("why are they making the same characters in the same scale, so greedy!") - truth is, there is no pleasing everyone.

I think that's a really lame excuse. And I think the cries of "Wait, I can use my existing minis with this new game? Awesome!" would far outweigh any nonsensical negativity.

I think a lot of people probably won't even know about the possibility of using IA or not, they'll just go out and buy Legion regardless..

HBMC, you missed the issue; no matter the relative scale, the product lines are separate. If you want to play Legion, you will need to buy Legion because the miniatures are just part of the components of Legion.

Pacific, I think you are correct.

The two games are certainly separate, but I'd say that changing the scale significantly between them (if they have finally done so: given that what AFAIK the only things we've seen are resin masters and that PVC seems to have significant shrinkage, that's not really a 100% fact right now) is kind of a dick move from FFG, even if they didn't need to keep the scale consistent.

tl/dr:
- Could they have kept the scale the same? Yes, they could have.
- Did they have to keep the scale the same? No, the two game lines are different, and the components (cards, tokens and stuff) will be different too.
- Is the scale change confirmed? Well, not completely, but seems to be right now.

Nah, it's entirely academic. The larger models cannot be cross-compatible because the size/style of the bases must meet certain requirement in each of the two games. But the infantry figs are practically cross-compatible. There is nothing to keep anyone from using any Legion figures they buy as alternate sculpts in IA - if you are a stickler for scale, you already have problems just within the existing IA product line. Similarly, the scale and base size differences between IA and Legion infantry figs are small enough to pose no issues in friendly games of Legion. This is honestly smoke and noise.

It isn't just a scale change but a move from True Scale to Heroic proportions. I much prefer the True Scale models from Imperial Assault than the Heroic Legion models but I know that a lot of people prefer Heroic.

(I know that Imperial Assault did release a few Heroic models based upon characters from Star Wars Rebels to mimick the TVs shows animated style and they look really out of place compared to the rest of the range.)

I am surprised to hear IA figs described as truescale. But no need to get hung up on a term, some people will prefer aspects of the IA figs and some will prefer aspects of the Legion figs. From what we have seen at GenCon, the Legion figs srike me as far more acceptable in terms of miniatures gaming, as opposed to board gaming.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Digclaw wrote:
The Rebel Alliance wasn't actually a single army. Rogue One did a good job of showing this. It's basically an amalgam of Militia and Resistance groups. The Legion starter even hints of the mixed forces by having Duros as part of the rebel unit.

I'm aware of that, but I'd argue that the Rebel Alliance wasn't even an army. Militia, partisans, guerillas, commandos... but an army? No.

Others have mentioned the Rebels becoming more organised after the destruction of the Death Star, and that is true, but consider Hoth and Endor.

Hoth was their army and it was... Snowspeeders! Endor was their fleet. All of it I'm guessing. A mixed collection of ships and converted freighters.

Having one force being an armed to the teeth military and the other be a 'rag-tag' group of nobodies with only the hardware they've stolen or built in secret doesn't make for the greatest 'war' game, especially when the lore for the universe includes an actual war between two massive and distinct forces.

You seem to be forgetting that this is a small scale skirmish game. It's not the entire Galactic Empire vs the Rebel Alliance. It's 12-30 soldiers and 1-3 vehicles. Thats tiny. At that scale the Empire's numerical superiority and greater resources doesn't matter at all. Almost all the on the ground combat we saw in the original Trilogy, Rogue One and The Force Awakens was at this scale or smaller (Hoth being the one exception).

There's lots of stuff this game can dip into. Ewoks and Tusken Raiders are actually perfectly suited for this scale. Mandolorians are active and working for both sides during this time frame. Saw Gerrara is already dead, but why not include him and his rebel group? Twi'lek have their own insurgent forces complete with cavalry and named characters. Various canon Star Wars video games have introduced tons of GCW era troops and vehicles for both the Rebeliion and the Empire that FFG can likely make use of if they want to.

I think there are plenty of options for this kind of a small scale skirmish game.

 Manchu wrote:
HBMC, you missed the issue; no matter the relative scale, the product lines are separate. If you want to play Legion, you will need to buy Legion because the miniatures are just part of the components of Legion.

I don't see why that matters at all.

Yeah, I get that if you were to buy an Imperial Assault box of Storm Troopers (or whatever) you'd have cards that don't work with Legion - fair enough - but you'd have more miniatures. And as I said, for those who already have IA stuff it means they have a leg up on the game already (were it the same scale).

How does the product lines being separate make any difference?

 Manchu wrote:
The larger models cannot be cross-compatible because the size/style of the bases must meet certain requirement in each of the two games.

Again that's a lousy excuse, and a false dilemma if ever I've seen one. They didn't need to make the bases different for Legion at all.

It matters a great deal. People who want to play Legion will want to buy Legion products, not IA products, and vice versa. They don't just want the minis but, for each game, the rest of the corresponding components. For the purposes of each game, "extra minis" are irrelevant. Of what use would having a bunch of mono-pose IA stormtroopers, for example, be to playing Legion? They would be no use to "filling out" squads (the Legion expansions will likely come with the max number of figs and options available to a given squad). And if you just want to use them as proxies in friendly games, that is already possible.

Large model bases in IA are meant to correspond to how much space the model takes up in a grid-based game. Legion is not grid-based; it uses free form movement. The large model bases therefore are notched to accomodate using the measurement tool. Furthermore, the larger bases are quartered to show weapons arcs. Thee is no "false dilemma" here.

It does seem a slap in the face to those who've collected IA and were hoping for more of an expansion to play star wars mass combat (or at least something closer to a wargame) with their existing range. That Legion figures are only slightly different but still distinct is a bit galling.

Still, FFG aren't a figures company and don't make games to use with said toy soldiers - they make games with Star Wars shaped components. And maybe IA isn't selling well enough that FFG don't feel the need to worry about any complaints from that quarter...

 Manchu wrote:
It matters a great deal. People who want to play Legion will want to buy Legion products, not IA products, and vice versa. They don't just want the minis but, for each game, the rest of the corresponding components. For the purposes of each game, "extra minis" are irrelevant. Of what use would having a bunch of mono-pose IA stormtroopers, for example, be to playing Legion? They would be no use to "filling out" squads (the Legion expansions will likely come with the max number of figs and options available to a given squad). And if you just want to use them as proxies in friendly games, that is already possible.

Large model bases in IA are meant to correspond to how much space the model takes up in a grid-based game. Legion is not grid-based; it uses free form movement. The large model bases therefore are notched to accomodate using the measurement tool. Furthermore, the larger bases are quartered to show weapons arcs. Thee is no "false dilemma" here.

As a note, I don't own IA, and wont be buying legion as after demoing it at gencon, I know first hand how terrible the game is/will be.

At the end of the day, it is a slap in the face to anyone who has IA. Half of the game of IA itself is a skirmish game. You have points...upgrades...build your force. You just move on a grid. So they make the game gridless. You still roll for your damage, you roll for surges, you roll defense. You just get old GW whipping measure sticks to use and Armada movement tools. BUT need new figures...cause...well, just because.

It is a plain and simple money grab from FFG. (Which anyone whos played FFG shouldn't be surprised by). Just a new product to sell you more special dice you've seen 100 times, with special rulers you've seen 100 times.

Behavior like this is why its a common thought that FFG is becoming like old GW. Eventually, their players will grow a pair and demand better from them then its crap. Simple fact, that if the scale was the same, Legions would have a massively larger player base, as it would just make sense for IA players to buy into legions.