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Also, I would absolutely hate the idea of facing a Guardsman Horde. Hell, even a partial guardsman horde. My ork green tide list was over 1,260pts of just boyz and that got me 210 models at the time, for that same price a guard horde could take 315 models and basically turn the game into a stalemate from turn 1 because there's no way you can remove that many bodies by the end of turn 5, so they would automatically get their objectives and could easily spend the last 740pts on just tanks or even more infantry to further skew the list.
I'm telling you if you if a couple of guys in this thread pooled their money each painted 25 guardsmen and sent one of you to the LVO you would be guaranteed the big cash prize. None of these "top 40k" players has yet to discover the overwhelming OP fire the guardsmen blob would bring
Asmodios wrote: I have a serious question for all the people chomping at the bit for a guardsmen nerf. If guardsmen are so broken and so OP why have we not seen a spam guardsmen list perform at the top of the meta?
Because Guardsmen + Knights/Shield Captains/Slam Captains is even better.
Asmodios wrote: I have a serious question for all the people chomping at the bit for a guardsmen nerf. If guardsmen are so broken and so OP why have we not seen a spam guardsmen list perform at the top of the meta?
Because Guardsmen + Knights/Shield Captains/Slam Captains is even better.
Asmodios wrote: I have a serious question for all the people chomping at the bit for a guardsmen nerf. If guardsmen are so broken and so OP why have we not seen a spam guardsmen list perform at the top of the meta?
Because Guardsmen + Knights/Shield Captains/Slam Captains is even better.
So soup is an issue?
Definitely. Is it the only issue? Hard to tell until soup is not allowed anymore.
Asmodios wrote: I have a serious question for all the people chomping at the bit for a guardsmen nerf. If guardsmen are so broken and so OP why have we not seen a spam guardsmen list perform at the top of the meta?
Because Guardsmen + Knights/Shield Captains/Slam Captains is even better.
So soup is an issue?
As are guardsman by themselves. especially if boyz are at 7ppm and guard are 4ppm
Asmodios wrote: I have a serious question for all the people chomping at the bit for a guardsmen nerf. If guardsmen are so broken and so OP why have we not seen a spam guardsmen list perform at the top of the meta?
Because Guardsmen + Knights/Shield Captains/Slam Captains is even better.
So soup is an issue?
No because soup is only an issue where undercosted/overpowered units exist. Like Guardsmen. If units were properly and fairly costed, soup is not a problem.
Asmodios wrote: I have a serious question for all the people chomping at the bit for a guardsmen nerf. If guardsmen are so broken and so OP why have we not seen a spam guardsmen list perform at the top of the meta?
Because Guardsmen + Knights/Shield Captains/Slam Captains is even better.
So soup is an issue?
As are guardsman by themselves. especially if boyz are at 7ppm and guard are 4ppm
what metric do you use when you only see guard brought in soup competitively.... Yet orks just won a GT right after their codex dropped
Asmodios wrote: I'm telling you if you if a couple of guys in this thread pooled their money each painted 25 guardsmen and sent one of you to the LVO you would be guaranteed the big cash prize. None of these "top 40k" players has yet to discover the overwhelming OP fire the guardsmen blob would bring
There would be too many to kill. Guaranteed win. Throw in commissars, platoon commanders, company commanders, etc. You are winning.
If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed.
Asmodios wrote: I'm telling you if you if a couple of guys in this thread pooled their money each painted 25 guardsmen and sent one of you to the LVO you would be guaranteed the big cash prize. None of these "top 40k" players has yet to discover the overwhelming OP fire the guardsmen blob would bring
There would be too many to kill. Guaranteed win. Throw in commissars, platoon commanders, company commanders, etc. You are winning.
didn't the winner get like 7 grand last year? why don't you just go clean up should be super easy
"Why don't we see armies of only Guardsmen?" is a complete and utter false equivalence. The answer is the same reason you don't see armies of pure kabalite warriors, or 4ppm Cultists or any other troop unit you believe to be under costed. There is a strength in taking mixed lists that maximise efficiencies, strangely enough.
If I may offer a counterpoint: there are other units also composed of Guardsmen that can fill other roles in ways which have no equivalents for these units from other armies, that do allow you to build a whole cohesive army. Heavy and Special weapons squads and Veterans. Yet these units are relatively rarely seen next to the Infantry Squad, despite being similarly costed with the same orders and abilities and weapons and arguably even more cost effective in some respects at many tasks.
What we see 90% of the time in the competitive arena is just enough troop guardsmen to fill out the detachment requirements, with these other units rarely fielded (HWS's appear sometimes, almost exclusively with just mortars).
Now, to be fair, the rule of 3 kneecaps these other units to some extent, but we still see these other Guardsmen composed units relatively rarely despite otherwise offering pretty much the same advantages except theyre just not Troops.
So index armies and other things like inquisition and assasins should just be squated then?
These things aren't really armies in the first place in and of themselves, and GW handling of them really needs to be changed. They need to be generic plug ins for Imperial armies, Assassins are not an army on their own in any sense and shouldnt be treated as such. Neither is the Inquisition, they take command of armies but are not an army inherently. Index lists need to be updated.
The CP sharing needs to be addressed however, Guardsmen or no. Allies shenanigans are, above and beyond any one faction, the single largest issue the game faces.
HWS aren't seen? When half the reason the rule of 3 exists is because people were taking 15+ mortar teams in their lists?
Special weapons squads and veteran squads aren't seen because their job is done better by Command Squads and Scions who have the same special weapons access but get deep strike/don't have to take lasgun bodies.
When there is a unit that is strong to decent, but there exists a 100% better version that uses the same models, you'll basicaly never see that unit no matter how good they might be.
I bet you a nickel the ratio of tactical squads to company veteran squads/sternguard squads we'll be seeing in marine lists from now on is going to have a 0: on one end of it.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Asmodios wrote: I'm telling you if you if a couple of guys in this thread pooled their money each painted 25 guardsmen and sent one of you to the LVO you would be guaranteed the big cash prize. None of these "top 40k" players has yet to discover the overwhelming OP fire the guardsmen blob would bring
Ah, the old 'I don't have an answer to the concerns raised so let's make up ridiculous strawman arguments' technique. A classic.
If by "guaranteed the big cash prize" you mean "run out of time every game and lose", sure. The reason you don't see mass infantry is because it is extremely difficult to play a 2k infantry list within a reasonable amount of time.
Yeah, this doesn't address why we were seeing cultist and termagant 200+ model spam and not guard. They both have the same exact limitations yet guard has never been effectively taken (except for when conscripts were broken)
Yes, it does, because we're not seeing 200 cultists or gants. 80 or 120 tops for cultists. It's also much simpler to manipulate 3 units than 20 units plus commanders.
There's been plenty of spam cultist and gants lists do incredibly well this edition. even popular 40k talking heads like TLWs kenny was made because his 200 cultist list wouldn't be as effective. Yet (other then conscripts at the beginning of 8th) nobody has taken guardsmen to the same effect
Dude. Diminishing returns. You can't easily get 200 models with 24" gun in range of everything you want dead right now, but you can if it's 80 or 100 while still profiting from the dynamic and having strong back field support.
There have been not 200 model lists on top table since 2017.
LVO - the #2 list had Straken, 100 Catachans, 9 mortars, and enough other units to fill out a battalion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/27 20:22:16
Asmodios wrote: I'm telling you if you if a couple of guys in this thread pooled their money each painted 25 guardsmen and sent one of you to the LVO you would be guaranteed the big cash prize. None of these "top 40k" players has yet to discover the overwhelming OP fire the guardsmen blob would bring
Ah, the old 'I don't have an answer to the concerns raised so let's make up ridiculous strawman arguments' technique. A classic.
I've given plenty of answers but apparently, guardsmen are the end all be all of the game so i say they should go clean up tournament after tournament winning all the prizes until gw fixes them. Clearly, you all know more than the top tournament players and I wanna see my fellow dakka members make out like bandits so have at it
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trickstick wrote: If by "guaranteed the big cash prize" you mean "run out of time every game and lose", sure. The reason you don't see mass infantry is because it is extremely difficult to play a 2k infantry list within a reasonable amount of time.
plenty of top players have played over 250 model count hoards with time to spare listen to some of the long war podcasts when he talks about playing his cultist spam. If he can do it with cultists they can do it with guardsmen. Also all those spam conscript lists used just as many models
Yeah, this doesn't address why we were seeing cultist and termagant 200+ model spam and not guard. They both have the same exact limitations yet guard has never been effectively taken (except for when conscripts were broken)
Yes, it does, because we're not seeing 200 cultists or gants. 80 or 120 tops for cultists. It's also much simpler to manipulate 3 units than 20 units plus commanders.
There's been plenty of spam cultist and gants lists do incredibly well this edition. even popular 40k talking heads like TLWs kenny was made because his 200 cultist list wouldn't be as effective. Yet (other then conscripts at the beginning of 8th) nobody has taken guardsmen to the same effect
Dude. Diminishing returns. You can't easily get 200 models with 24" gun in range of everything you want dead right now, but you can if it's 80 or 100 while still profiting from the dynamic and having strong back field support.
There have been not 200 model lists on top table since 2017.
LVO - the #2 list had Straken, 100 Catachans, 9 mortars, and enough other units to fill out a battalion.
wait hold on..... are you saying that math hammer has some kind of limitation like spacing, terrain, position issues, ect and that it cant be the only metric used to evaluate a units effectiness on the board?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/27 20:26:31
Asmodios wrote: I'm telling you if you if a couple of guys in this thread pooled their money each painted 25 guardsmen and sent one of you to the LVO you would be guaranteed the big cash prize. None of these "top 40k" players has yet to discover the overwhelming OP fire the guardsmen blob would bring
Ah, the old 'I don't have an answer to the concerns raised so let's make up ridiculous strawman arguments' technique. A classic.
I've given plenty of answers but apparently, guardsmen are the end all be all of the game so i say they should go clean up tournament after tournament winning all the prizes until gw fixes them. Clearly, you all know more than the top tournament players and I wanna see my fellow dakka members make out like bandits so have at it
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trickstick wrote: If by "guaranteed the big cash prize" you mean "run out of time every game and lose", sure. The reason you don't see mass infantry is because it is extremely difficult to play a 2k infantry list within a reasonable amount of time.
plenty of top players have played over 250 model count hoards with time to spare listen to some of the long war podcasts when he talks about playing his cultist spam. If he can do it with cultists they can do it with guardsmen. Also all those spam conscript lists used just as many models
Yeah, this doesn't address why we were seeing cultist and termagant 200+ model spam and not guard. They both have the same exact limitations yet guard has never been effectively taken (except for when conscripts were broken)
Yes, it does, because we're not seeing 200 cultists or gants. 80 or 120 tops for cultists. It's also much simpler to manipulate 3 units than 20 units plus commanders.
There's been plenty of spam cultist and gants lists do incredibly well this edition. even popular 40k talking heads like TLWs kenny was made because his 200 cultist list wouldn't be as effective. Yet (other then conscripts at the beginning of 8th) nobody has taken guardsmen to the same effect
Dude. Diminishing returns. You can't easily get 200 models with 24" gun in range of everything you want dead right now, but you can if it's 80 or 100 while still profiting from the dynamic and having strong back field support.
There have been not 200 model lists on top table since 2017.
LVO - the #2 list had Straken, 100 Catachans, 9 mortars, and enough other units to fill out a battalion.
wait hold on..... are you saying that math hammer has some kind of limitation like spacing, terrain, position issues, ect and that it cant be the only metric used to evaluate a units effectiness on the board?
You've given no answers that make any sense and please stop strawmanning.
No one believes Guard to be the best unit bar none. They are the best troop though and this can be evidenced.
Your desperation to defend their current points cost is a classic case of 'I don't want my toys to be made worse-itus'. Unfortunately its good for the game and needs to happen. Other units that are performing far too well will also need to be adjusted.
SemperMortis wrote: Also, I would absolutely hate the idea of facing a Guardsman Horde. Hell, even a partial guardsman horde. My ork green tide list was over 1,260pts of just boyz and that got me 210 models at the time, for that same price a guard horde could take 315 models and basically turn the game into a stalemate from turn 1 because there's no way you can remove that many bodies by the end of turn 5, so they would automatically get their objectives and could easily spend the last 740pts on just tanks or even more infantry to further skew the list.
240 guards in a double brigade is the maximum number possible in a 2000 point list, and you don't have any spare points for tanks, you have 6 sentinels 3 mortars 3 basilisks and then only commissars and commanders to fill the slots. It would be a really crappy list, even with the cobined fire of the 240 guards with all the possible FRFSRF and somehow all in range for double tap, you wouldn't take down a couple of rhinos, and 240 guards without support are not that hard to kill.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/27 21:06:18
Asmodios wrote: I'm telling you if you if a couple of guys in this thread pooled their money each painted 25 guardsmen and sent one of you to the LVO you would be guaranteed the big cash prize. None of these "top 40k" players has yet to discover the overwhelming OP fire the guardsmen blob would bring
Ah, the old 'I don't have an answer to the concerns raised so let's make up ridiculous strawman arguments' technique. A classic.
I've given plenty of answers but apparently, guardsmen are the end all be all of the game so i say they should go clean up tournament after tournament winning all the prizes until gw fixes them. Clearly, you all know more than the top tournament players and I wanna see my fellow dakka members make out like bandits so have at it
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trickstick wrote: If by "guaranteed the big cash prize" you mean "run out of time every game and lose", sure. The reason you don't see mass infantry is because it is extremely difficult to play a 2k infantry list within a reasonable amount of time.
plenty of top players have played over 250 model count hoards with time to spare listen to some of the long war podcasts when he talks about playing his cultist spam. If he can do it with cultists they can do it with guardsmen. Also all those spam conscript lists used just as many models
Yeah, this doesn't address why we were seeing cultist and termagant 200+ model spam and not guard. They both have the same exact limitations yet guard has never been effectively taken (except for when conscripts were broken)
Yes, it does, because we're not seeing 200 cultists or gants. 80 or 120 tops for cultists. It's also much simpler to manipulate 3 units than 20 units plus commanders.
There's been plenty of spam cultist and gants lists do incredibly well this edition. even popular 40k talking heads like TLWs kenny was made because his 200 cultist list wouldn't be as effective. Yet (other then conscripts at the beginning of 8th) nobody has taken guardsmen to the same effect
Dude. Diminishing returns. You can't easily get 200 models with 24" gun in range of everything you want dead right now, but you can if it's 80 or 100 while still profiting from the dynamic and having strong back field support.
There have been not 200 model lists on top table since 2017.
LVO - the #2 list had Straken, 100 Catachans, 9 mortars, and enough other units to fill out a battalion.
wait hold on..... are you saying that math hammer has some kind of limitation like spacing, terrain, position issues, ect and that it cant be the only metric used to evaluate a units effectiness on the board?
You've given no answers that make any sense and please stop strawmanning.
No one believes Guard to be the best unit bar none. They are the best troop though and this can be evidenced.
Your desperation to defend their current points cost is a classic case of 'I don't want my toys to be made worse-itus'. Unfortunately its good for the game and needs to happen. Other units that are performing far too well will also need to be adjusted.
Actually if you remember earlier in this thread im on the 9ppm guardsmen train thats been thrown out there. I want to see what the next soup detatchment auto include is going to be and i wanna watch all the new "x unit is overpowered" threads
SemperMortis wrote: Also, I would absolutely hate the idea of facing a Guardsman Horde. Hell, even a partial guardsman horde. My ork green tide list was over 1,260pts of just boyz and that got me 210 models at the time, for that same price a guard horde could take 315 models and basically turn the game into a stalemate from turn 1 because there's no way you can remove that many bodies by the end of turn 5, so they would automatically get their objectives and could easily spend the last 740pts on just tanks or even more infantry to further skew the list.
240 guards in a double brigade is the maximum number possible in a 2000 point list, and you don't have any spare points for tanks, you have 6 sentinels 3 mortars 3 basilisks and then only commissars and commanders to fill the slots. It would be a really crappy list, even with the cobined fire of the 240 guards with all the possible FRFSRF and somehow all in range for double tap, you wouldn't take down a couple of rhinos, and 240 guards without support are not that hard to kill.
On the other hand i just calculated that you can play 360 morale immune termagants, now THAT is dirty!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/27 21:15:45
Asmodios wrote: I have a serious question for all the people chomping at the bit for a guardsmen nerf. If guardsmen are so broken and so OP why have we not seen a spam guardsmen list perform at the top of the meta?
Because Guardsmen + Knights/Shield Captains/Slam Captains is even better.
So soup is an issue?
As are guardsman by themselves. especially if boyz are at 7ppm and guard are 4ppm
what metric do you use when you only see guard brought in soup competitively.... Yet orks just won a GT right after their codex dropped
wait....the new codex that isn't hot garbage won a single GT right after it dropped before competitive players had a chance to learn how to counter the newest codex? Go figure.....almost like we don't have a track record of this exact thing happening repetitively.
How good is the top ranked ork player in ITC? You know, since the codex is great and all, at least according to your metric that they wont a GT. Well turns out its a guy named Richard Kilton who is currently ranked....68th in the world. Ohh and the only GT he was in he placed 3rd, and one of his top 4 games on record was index, not codex. So unarguably the best Ork player in the world is only 68th. Maybe you shouldn't factor in 1 or even a couple tournament results vs the overwhelming data that says otherwise
And what metric do I use? simple, how cheap/cost efficient is the unit. Guardsmen without buffs cost 40pts, fill up a troop slot and do metric fethloads of things better than ork boyz can...and can do everything better than Grotz can do who are 3ppm. T2, S2 WS 5+ 6+ save, so why are grotz 1 point cheaper but Guard are 3pts cheaper than boyz? Almost like boyz or guard aren't priced properly.
Asmodios wrote: I have a serious question for all the people chomping at the bit for a guardsmen nerf. If guardsmen are so broken and so OP why have we not seen a spam guardsmen list perform at the top of the meta?
Because Guardsmen + Knights/Shield Captains/Slam Captains is even better.
So soup is an issue?
As are guardsman by themselves. especially if boyz are at 7ppm and guard are 4ppm
what metric do you use when you only see guard brought in soup competitively.... Yet orks just won a GT right after their codex dropped
wait....the new codex that isn't hot garbage won a single GT right after it dropped before competitive players had a chance to learn how to counter the newest codex? Go figure.....almost like we don't have a track record of this exact thing happening repetitively.
How good is the top ranked ork player in ITC? You know, since the codex is great and all, at least according to your metric that they wont a GT. Well turns out its a guy named Richard Kilton who is currently ranked....68th in the world. Ohh and the only GT he was in he placed 3rd, and one of his top 4 games on record was index, not codex. So unarguably the best Ork player in the world is only 68th. Maybe you shouldn't factor in 1 or even a couple tournament results vs the overwhelming data that says otherwise
And what metric do I use? simple, how cheap/cost efficient is the unit. Guardsmen without buffs cost 40pts, fill up a troop slot and do metric fethloads of things better than ork boyz can...and can do everything better than Grotz can do who are 3ppm. T2, S2 WS 5+ 6+ save, so why are grotz 1 point cheaper but Guard are 3pts cheaper than boyz? Almost like boyz or guard aren't priced properly.
Oh if we are going for highest ITC we could talk about the single best performing mono codex army and currently has a top 10 ITC player playing mono as DE...... funny I don't see 5 nuke DE threads a day. I also get to listen to people talk about GT wins from mono guard from when they were one of the first codexes and had broken earthshakers and conscripts
Oh if we are going for highest ITC we could talk about the single best performing mono codex army and currently has a top 10 ITC player playing mono as DE...... funny I don't see 5 nuke DE threads a day. I also get to listen to people talk about GT wins from mono guard from when they were one of the first codexes and had broken earthshakers and conscripts
Ahh, well if that is the case than of course please continue to throw up strawmen to defend against some random person's argument..because you know, me and that person are exactly the same
If you are going to argue/debate with me than don't worry about what some rando did 3 pages ago or 3 months ago.
Spoletta wrote: 240 guards in a double brigade is the maximum number possible in a 2000 point list, and you don't have any spare points for tanks, you have 6 sentinels 3 mortars 3 basilisks and then only commissars and commanders to fill the slots. It would be a really crappy list, even with the cobined fire of the 240 guards with all the possible FRFSRF and somehow all in range for double tap, you wouldn't take down a couple of rhinos, and 240 guards without support are not that hard to kill.
I have perhaps embarrassingly just spent the last 20 minutes working out a list.
Something like:
Staken
2 company commanders
2 platoon commanders
1 priest
12*10 infantry.
3 scout sentinels
3 basilisks
Points:1124 (I think, doing this quickly, might have missed something).
Total: 1995. (As said, doing this quickly, may well have missed some gear especially on the special characters).
Creed as warlord for 29 command points (not sure what you would use them for, but lets work that out later). You have 14 orders+Superior Tactical Training, and I guess throw in Laurels somewhere if you wanted too.
Not sure it would be that crap on the table. You are right against an armoured wall I wouldn't be doing much damage. But I am not convinced 240 guardsmen are that easy to deal with.
I doubt however it would be much fun to play or play against.
I also think taking 1 Brigade and 2 battalions would allow you to take 240 guardsmen and be more flexible. Ditch the basilisks and commissars. Throw in a plasma gun on every guard unit, and maybe add 3 squads of vets for additional warm bodies.
Oh if we are going for highest ITC we could talk about the single best performing mono codex army and currently has a top 10 ITC player playing mono as DE...... funny I don't see 5 nuke DE threads a day. I also get to listen to people talk about GT wins from mono guard from when they were one of the first codexes and had broken earthshakers and conscripts
Ahh, well if that is the case than of course please continue to throw up strawmen to defend against some random person's argument..because you know, me and that person are exactly the same
If you are going to argue/debate with me than don't worry about what some rando did 3 pages ago or 3 months ago.
Well, I'm not really sure what to discuss with you... a new codex coming and stomping a large GT right after release is apparently no big deal and clearly shows that one of the staples of that army is overprinted
wait....the new codex that isn't hot garbage won a single GT right after it dropped before competitive players had a chance to learn how to counter the newest codex? Go figure.....almost like we don't have a track record of this exact thing happening repetitively.
How good is the top ranked ork player in ITC? You know, since the codex is great and all, at least according to your metric that they wont a GT. Well turns out its a guy named Richard Kilton who is currently ranked....68th in the world. Ohh and the only GT he was in he placed 3rd, and one of his top 4 games on record was index, not codex. So unarguably the best Ork player in the world is only 68th. Maybe you shouldn't factor in 1 or even a couple tournament results vs the overwhelming data that says otherwise
And what metric do I use? simple, how cheap/cost efficient is the unit. Guardsmen without buffs cost 40pts, fill up a troop slot and do metric fethloads of things better than ork boyz can...and can do everything better than Grotz can do who are 3ppm. T2, S2 WS 5+ 6+ save, so why are grotz 1 point cheaper but Guard are 3pts cheaper than boyz? Almost like boyz or guard aren't priced properly.
Flip the script. If some rando can come to the table with Orks and smash face then Orks are in a pretty good place even when people learn to adjust.
And we're not talking small margin wins.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/27 22:14:39
wait....the new codex that isn't hot garbage won a single GT right after it dropped before competitive players had a chance to learn how to counter the newest codex? Go figure.....almost like we don't have a track record of this exact thing happening repetitively.
How good is the top ranked ork player in ITC? You know, since the codex is great and all, at least according to your metric that they wont a GT. Well turns out its a guy named Richard Kilton who is currently ranked....68th in the world. Ohh and the only GT he was in he placed 3rd, and one of his top 4 games on record was index, not codex. So unarguably the best Ork player in the world is only 68th. Maybe you shouldn't factor in 1 or even a couple tournament results vs the overwhelming data that says otherwise
And what metric do I use? simple, how cheap/cost efficient is the unit. Guardsmen without buffs cost 40pts, fill up a troop slot and do metric fethloads of things better than ork boyz can...and can do everything better than Grotz can do who are 3ppm. T2, S2 WS 5+ 6+ save, so why are grotz 1 point cheaper but Guard are 3pts cheaper than boyz? Almost like boyz or guard aren't priced properly.
Flip the script. If some rando can come to the table with Orks and smash face then Orks are in a pretty good place even when people learn to adjust.
And we're not talking small margin wins.
Flip the table? How so? The best ork player isn't even in the top 50. He also isn't a rando as much as the best ork player in the world. your analogy is broken from the start. And I haven't seen orkz smashing faces as of late. Once the smoke settled they are settling in to mid tier as I predicted. Do you have more information to provide that shows them winning lots of games? and if so, how many boyz did they take to keep this on topic in regards to IG being under priced.
HWS aren't seen? When half the reason the rule of 3 exists is because people were taking 15+ mortar teams in their lists?
There's lots of reasons for the rule of 3, who knows what the specifics in GW's minds were. That said; two points. First, HWS's are, much like basic guardsmen, fundamentally intended to be spammed. They're cheap and small and are the only concentrated source of heavy weapons not stuck to a tank. Last time you could take them as an HS choice on their own it used to have to be in a heavy weapons platoon. Second, with respect to 8E, how often do we see them as anything but detachment fillers, and how often do we see them with arguably very cost effective weapons like autocannons or lascannon? Almost never.
Special weapons squads and veteran squads aren't seen because their job is done better by Command Squads and Scions who have the same special weapons access but get deep strike/don't have to take lasgun bodies.
When there is a unit that is strong to decent, but there exists a 100% better version that uses the same models, you'll basicaly never see that unit no matter how good they might be.
1 for 1 they absolutely are better, no question, but a large contention in this thread has been over cost effectiveness.
Lets go back to the earlier Guard vs Sisters example and look at killing power per squad against Marines. We'll assume no Doctrines for now.
Looking at an Infantry Squad with a mortar, PG, and PP, and FRFSRF for 57pts we inflict 2.66 wounds, or 21.43pts per wound output per turn.
SWS w/3 Plasmas is 45pts.
With FRFSRF on lasguns and 3 PG's, that unit is inflicting killing 2.75 Marines a turn, or about 16.36pts per wound output per turn.
A command squad with 4 plasma guns is 68pts
FRFSRF doesn't apply, so it's just the 4 BS3+ PG's, so this unit is killing 3.7 Marines per turn, or about 18.38pts per wound output per turn.
Veterans with 3 plasma guns and a PP cost 88pts
With FRFSRF they're inflicting 5.01 marine wounds a turn, or 17.56pts per wound output per turn.
A min sized Stormtrooper squad with 2 PG's and a PP costs 72pts. (These guys have DS so that's a factor that isn't accounted for here but does explain their popular effectiveness otherwise)
With FRFSRF on 2 hotshot lasguns and 5 PG shots, that unit is killing 3.5 Marines per turn, or about 20.57pts per wound output per turn.
The Special Weapons Squad is, mathematically, the most cost effective unit in this evaluation in terms of damage output, the Infantry Squad being almost a full third more expensive per wound generated. The SWS has the lowest absolute damage output aside from the IS, but offers the biggest bang for your buck, and are clearly more resilient than the command squads and arent too far behind the Stormtroopers, yet, we rarely ever see them, even just to fill small points gaps really.
On that note...I honestly cant recall seeing a command squad in any list in recent history either.
So, we have a grip of units that are roughly as cost effective as Infantry Squads, definitively moreso in an offensive context, that nobody uses. All of them are relatively cost effective, but we really only see a couple of these units ever. There should be plenty of room in any large IG army for them with the rule of 3 in play, we should see horde IG armies showing up and doing well at large events, but largely dont. Why then is the focus on Infantry Squads and their ubiquitousness then?
Because they're the one that fills out detachments for CP
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
wait....the new codex that isn't hot garbage won a single GT right after it dropped before competitive players had a chance to learn how to counter the newest codex? Go figure.....almost like we don't have a track record of this exact thing happening repetitively.
How good is the top ranked ork player in ITC? You know, since the codex is great and all, at least according to your metric that they wont a GT. Well turns out its a guy named Richard Kilton who is currently ranked....68th in the world. Ohh and the only GT he was in he placed 3rd, and one of his top 4 games on record was index, not codex. So unarguably the best Ork player in the world is only 68th. Maybe you shouldn't factor in 1 or even a couple tournament results vs the overwhelming data that says otherwise
And what metric do I use? simple, how cheap/cost efficient is the unit. Guardsmen without buffs cost 40pts, fill up a troop slot and do metric fethloads of things better than ork boyz can...and can do everything better than Grotz can do who are 3ppm. T2, S2 WS 5+ 6+ save, so why are grotz 1 point cheaper but Guard are 3pts cheaper than boyz? Almost like boyz or guard aren't priced properly.
Flip the script. If some rando can come to the table with Orks and smash face then Orks are in a pretty good place even when people learn to adjust.
And we're not talking small margin wins.
Flip the table? How so? The best ork player isn't even in the top 50. He also isn't a rando as much as the best ork player in the world. your analogy is broken from the start. And I haven't seen orkz smashing faces as of late. Once the smoke settled they are settling in to mid tier as I predicted. Do you have more information to provide that shows them winning lots of games? and if so, how many boyz did they take to keep this on topic in regards to IG being under priced.
The "smoke settled" because we moved into the dead period of the ITC during the Christmas season. Unless every competitive podcast I listen to is 100% wrong they are predicted to be a top-tier codex and something to be feared going into the LVO. Also, you ever think that the top ork codex player isn't higher cause we are at the very end of the ITC season and they just now got their codex?
wait....the new codex that isn't hot garbage won a single GT right after it dropped before competitive players had a chance to learn how to counter the newest codex? Go figure.....almost like we don't have a track record of this exact thing happening repetitively.
How good is the top ranked ork player in ITC? You know, since the codex is great and all, at least according to your metric that they wont a GT. Well turns out its a guy named Richard Kilton who is currently ranked....68th in the world. Ohh and the only GT he was in he placed 3rd, and one of his top 4 games on record was index, not codex. So unarguably the best Ork player in the world is only 68th. Maybe you shouldn't factor in 1 or even a couple tournament results vs the overwhelming data that says otherwise
And what metric do I use? simple, how cheap/cost efficient is the unit. Guardsmen without buffs cost 40pts, fill up a troop slot and do metric fethloads of things better than ork boyz can...and can do everything better than Grotz can do who are 3ppm. T2, S2 WS 5+ 6+ save, so why are grotz 1 point cheaper but Guard are 3pts cheaper than boyz? Almost like boyz or guard aren't priced properly.
Flip the script. If some rando can come to the table with Orks and smash face then Orks are in a pretty good place even when people learn to adjust.
And we're not talking small margin wins.
Flip the table? How so? The best ork player isn't even in the top 50. He also isn't a rando as much as the best ork player in the world. your analogy is broken from the start. And I haven't seen orkz smashing faces as of late. Once the smoke settled they are settling in to mid tier as I predicted. Do you have more information to provide that shows them winning lots of games? and if so, how many boyz did they take to keep this on topic in regards to IG being under priced.
The "smoke settled" because we moved into the dead period of the ITC during the Christmas season. Unless every competitive podcast I listen to is 100% wrong they are predicted to be a top-tier codex and something to be feared going into the LVO. Also, you ever think that the top ork codex player isn't higher cause we are at the very end of the ITC season and they just now got their codex?
Spoiler:
November 2018
Friday Night iTC Fight, San Antonio, TX, November 2nd, 2018
Warhammer 40KRTT: Extra Life Edition, Military Gamer Supply, El Paso, TX, November 3rd, 2018
Kelowna 40k Tournament 2, Quantum Games, Kelowna, British Columbia, Canada, November 3-4th, 2018
Mid-MO Maelstrom, Ashland MO, November 3rd, 2018
Cataclysm Clash of Champions, Machesney Park IL, November 3rd, 2018
Fargo Badlands RTT, Fargo, ND, November 3rd, 2018
Armacon: Stavanger Singels Championship 40k 2018, Sola, Norway, November 3rd, 2018
Mugu Games’ November 3rd, 2000 ITC Event “Turkey Time”, Everett, WA, November 3rd, 2018
GT: The Steel City Showdown!, Legions Hobbies and Games, Pittsburgh, PA, November 3-4th, 2018
GT: WH40k: Grand Tournament!, Power 9 Games, North Las Vegas, NV, November 3-4th, 2018
GT: Overwatch Open V 2000pt ITC 40k Event, New South Wales, Australia, November 3-4th, 2018
GT: Scottish Take Over 4 GT, The Seaforth Club, Elgin, United Kingdom, November 3-4th, 2018
Dragon’s Lair 1750 Point40K ITC Tournament, Austin, TX, November 4th, 2018
Tournament of Legends Nov 2018, Legends Comics and Games, San Jose, CA, November 4th, 2018
Warhammer 40k 8th Edition Tournament November, Critical Hit Games Cafe, Liverpool, United Kingdom, November 4th, 2018
ITC 40K Tournament, MJ Cards and Comics, Wasilla, AK, November 10th, 2018
November Warhammer 40k 2k Tournament, Dice N Duels, Fernley, NV, November 10th, 2018
Warhammer 40K Tournament, Recess Games, North Olmsted, OH, November 10th, 2018
40K 8th Edition Scenario Showdown!, Jack’s on Queen, Ontario, Canada, November 10th, 2018
Warhammer 40k ITC Team Tournament, Game Empire Pasadena, Pasadena, CA, November 10th, 2018
Titan Games And Hobbies November RTT, Lutherville-Timonium, MD, November 10th, 2018
Conquest 2018, Comics Compulsion, Christchurch, New Zealand, November 10-11th, 2018
Realm WH40k Q4 ITC Tournament, The Realm Games & Comics, Brea, CA, November 10th, 2018
ITC Warhammer 40k Tournament, Gamer’s Hollow, Nacogdoches, TX, November 11th, 2018
GT: Da Boyz Singles Warhammer 40K Grand Tournament, Henrietta, NY, November 10-11th, 2018
MAJOR: Warzone: Atlanta 2018, Atlanta, GA, November 10-11th, 2018
Da Momma’s Boyz Fall Bash, Moscow, ID, November 10-11th, 2018
LBK Tour 43, Linkoping, Sweden, November 11th, 2018
ITC Warhammer 40K Mid Week, Campbelltown, Australia, November 15th, 2018
Warhammer 40k ITC Tournaments, Paragon City Games, Draper, UT, November 17th, 2018
Warhammer 40k ITC “Champions Missions” Tournament, Green Tower Games, Santa Clarita, CA, November 17th, 2018
Warhammer 40K: Fallen Heroes Event, Campbelltown, Australia, November 17th, 2018
Dicehammer November 40k ITC Tournament, Lake Forest CA, November 17th, 2018
Portal Warhammer 40K 2,000 Point ITC Tournament, Bethlehem PA, November 17th, 2018
Knuckle-Buster Warhammer 40k 2000pts, Legacy Defined Games, Killeen, TX, November 17th, 2018
Slaughterfest 2018, Philomath, OR, November 17th, 2018
Warhammer 40k local 2000point, Dirt Road Comics and Collectibles, Willow Springs, MO, November 17th, 2018
Imps Open 2018, England, United Kingdom, November 17th, 2018
November Bel Air Games 40kRTT, Bel Air, MD, November 17th, 2018
Navigator Challenge V, Goblin Gaming, Northwich, England, November 17th, 2018
7th Annual Turkey Shoot, TC War Room, Traverse City, MI, November 17th, 2018
Renegade BeerHammer, Plymouth, MN, November 17th, 2018
MAJOR: Renegade Open GT, Plymouth, MN, November 17-18th, 2018
GT: There Will Be Blood GT, Imperial Outpost, Glendale, AZ, November 17-18th, 2018
MAJOR: Alliance Open – 40K – Dutch Grand Tournament, Hoofddorp, Netherlands, November 17-18th, 2018
Jolt Games Warhammer 40K ITC Competitive Tournaments, Mitchell, Australian Capital Territory, November 17th, 2018
The Tanksgiving Open by AG 2018, Adventure Games, Dickson City, PA, November 18th, 2018
Battle For Utopia, Modesto CA, November 18th, 2018
November 1650 ITC At The Gobbo, Halton Hills, Ontario, Canada, November 18th, 2018
The War Zone Way, Monthly 40KRTT, Mattoon, IL, November 18th, 2018
Hobbytown Kennesaw 40k Tournament, Kennesaw, GA, November 24th, 2018
Warhammer 40K ITC Monthly event, Tier 1 Cards & Games, Anchorage, AK, November 24th, 2018
HFX Games 40k Nov 2018 Tournament, Dartmouth, NS, November 24th, 2018
Command Zone Games & Hobbies Warhammer 40K Tournament, Hanford, CA, November 24th, 2018
Warhammer 40K ITC Monthly event, Tier 1 Cards & Games, Anchorage, AK, November 24th, 2018
Warhammer 40k @ Silver Dragon Tavern, Miami, FL, November 24th, 2018
Saskatoon ‘Ard Boyz 2018, Saskatoon, Canada, November 24th, 2018
November 24th Geekery 40k Tournament, Shawnee, KS, November 24th, 2018
Critical Fail RTT ITC, Sir Games-A-Lot, Ontario, Canada, November 24th, 2018
Sword and Board Open, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, November 24th, 2018
Rumble in Romford Nov 2018, Hornchurch Essex, United Kingdom, November 24th, 2018
40K United’s Turkey Tango, Miniature Market Retail Superstore, St. Louis, MO, November 24th, 2018
Gameology 40K ITC Tournament, Gameology, Montclair, CA, November 24th, 2018
MAJOR: Element Games Grand Slam – 40k, Element Games North West Gaming Centre, Stockport, England, November 24-25th, 2018
ITC Warhammer 40K 3 Weekday Tournament, Campbelltown, Australia, November 28th, 2018
December 2018
WH40k: ITC Tournament, Power 9 Games, North Las Vegas, NV, December 1st, 2018
Fat ogre Christmas Tournament, Spring, TX, December 1st, 2018
Grimdark RTT, San Antonio ,TX, December 1st, 2018
SÃO PAULO CLASH – Tournament Of WH40k, Sao Paulo, Brazil, December 1st, 2018
The War College ITC 2k, Aurora, CO, December 1st, 2018
The Gathering Games Warhammer 40k ITC Winter Brawl, The Gathering Games, New Richmond, WI, December 1st, 2018
ITC Warhammer 40K 1 Day Tournament, Campbelltown, Australia, December 1st, 2018
Dicehammer December Doubles 40k ITC Tournament, Lake Forest CA, December 1st, 2018
GT: Allies of Convenience Wales GT, Firestorm Games, Cardiff, Wales, December 1-2nd, 2018
No Surrender 40K, Woolston Club Inc., Christchurch, New Zealand, December 1-2nd, 2018
GT: Nowhere GT: Warhammer 40K, Military Gamer Supply, El Paso, TX, December 1-2nd, 2018
GT: 4th Annual Portal Warhammer 40kGT, The Portal, Manchester, CT, December 1-2nd, 2018
MAJOR: Games of Westeros V (Westeros ITC IX), Västerås, Sweden, December 1-2nd, 2018
Scroogehammer Invitational RTT, Louisville, KY, December 2nd, 2018
The Twisted Road To The LCO, England, December 2nd, 2018
Warhammer 40k 8th Edition Tournament December, Critical Hit Games Cafe, Liverpool United Kingdom, December 2nd, 2018
Big Easy 40k Warhammer Tournament, Covington, LA, December 8th, 2018
Dragons Den ITC Tournament, Dragons Den, Grand Haven, MI, December 8th, 2018
Bourbon Brothers Child’s Play Fundraiser, Louisville, KY, December 8th, 2018
Tate’s Eighth day Of Exterminatus 40kRTT, Lauderhill FL, December 8th, 2018
Bismarck Badlands RTT, Bismarck ND, December 8th, 2018
December 40kRTT, Pittsburgh PA, December 8th, 2018
CWL 40K Open, Sentry Box, Alberta, Canada, December 8th, 2018
The Rudder GT, Alder Security, Orem, UT, December 8-9th, 2018
Athoria December Rtt, Mesa, AZ, December 9th, 2018
LBK Tour 44, Linkoping, Sweden, December 9th, 2018
ITC Warhammer 40K 3 Weekday Tournament, Campbelltown, Australia, December 12th, 2018
Merry Slaaneshmas 2018, Aberdeen, WA, December 15th, 2018
Warhammer 40K Tournament, Recess Games, North Olmsted, OH, December 15th, 2018
Gamehaven Dec RTT, St. George ,UT, December 15th, 2018
Warhammer 40k Champions Missions 2,000pt Tournament, Green Tower Games, Santa Clarita, CA, December 15th, 2018
Guild Gaming RTT December 2018, Woodbridge, VA, December 15th, 2018
Winter Solstice Showdown, The Game Closet, Waco, TX, December 15th, 2018
Warhammer 40,000 ITC 1 Day Tournament, Campbelltown, Australia, December 15th, 2018
40k ITC Tournament, Game Nite, St. Louis, MO, December 15th, 2018
GT: Bel Air Crucible Of Winter GT, Bel Air, MD, December 15-16th, 2018
GT: A Cutthroat Christmas 40kGT, HobbyTown Westminster, CO, December 15-16th, 2018
Christmas 40k Tournament: Tri-Hards Cup, Memory Lane Antique Mall, Gate City, VA, December 15th, 2018
Gamer’s Haven December 40K ITC Tournament, Colton, CA, December 16th, 2018
AG Presents: The Fight Before Christmas 2018, Adventure Games, Dickson City, PA, December 16th, 2018
Fanatix 40k December ITC 2000 Point RTT, Enterprise, AL, December 16th, 2018
Merry Crushmas 40k! Presented By The Imperial Pimps, The Garage: Games & Geekery, British Columbia, Canada, December 16th, 2018
ITC Warhammer 40K 3 Weekday Tournament, Campbelltown, Australia, December 19th, 2018
I’m Not Good Enough For A GT, Fountain, CO, December 22nd, 2018
Tantum est Fortis – Warhammer 40k Tournament, Gam3Escape, Hilo, HI, December 23rd, 2018
ITC Warhammer 40k Winter Tournament Circuit – Tourney Two, The Armchair Adventurer, Honolulu, HI, December 29th, 2018
Command Zone Games & Hobbies Warhammer 40K Tournament, Hanford, CA, December 29th, 2018
ITC Warhammer 40k Winter Tournament Circuit – Tourney Two, Honolulu, HI, December 29th, 2018
Ylva Open III, Gothenburg, Sweden, December 29th, 2018
Warhammer 40k @ Silver Dragon, Miami, FL, December 29th, 2018
2nd Annual Porter Potluck, Oakville, WA, December 29th, 2018
RTT: End Times at the Tower: Warhammer 40k Tournament, Dark Tower Games, Bellingham, WA, December 29th, 2018
ITC Warhammer 40K Weekend Tournament, Campbelltown, Australia, December 29th, 2018
End of year celebration, Dirt Road Comics and Collectibles, Willow Springs, MO, December 29th, 2018
Westeros ITC RTT #4, Vasteras, Sweden, December 30th, 2018
That is a fair amount of tournaments in November alone, let alone December But that is a fair point. But again, the best ork player in the game has better Index ratings than Codex
