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Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






 Type40 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
What are the rules of the wolf guard leader? How does he differ from a sergeant?


you really havnt opened a SW codex have you ?


I have, but not recently.

You can give sergeant an option to take those items.

EDIT: Though indeed as Lance says, Lieutenant is a good way to represent them too.



a lieutenant is not a part of the tactical squad.


Boo fething hoo.

Again, your regular marines are on a line waiting for legends. NONE of the units you are complaining about will be around. They are all going to get some kind of representation as Primaris. Thats the future of the SM line. The writing has been on the wall for 3 years. Intercessors don't act like Tac marines. But guess what? They are the new tac marines. You are going to get Primaris versions of the units and they won't be exactly the same. Have you just realized this now?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 15:36:35



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in se
[DCM]
δ³Σx²





 Crimson wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
What are the rules of the wolf guard leader? How does he differ from a sergeant?


you really havnt opened a SW codex have you ?


I have, but not recently.

You can give sergeant an option to take those items.


no you cant ?

an wolf gaurd have been in the SW codex since at least 4th ... (when i first played them)

your telling me a SM tac squad sgt can take terminator armor, a storm shield and a thunderhammer.
or they can take a power armor, storm shield, storm bolter ?

your full of it.


I meant that a sergeant cvan be given access to those items. In the SW supplement. Iron Hands could get similar option in theirs.


so then what happens the the sgt we already have in the squad ? do they not get their wargear ?
a sgt isnt a wolf gaurd... they have seperate positions in my units with seperate wargear options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lance845 wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
What are the rules of the wolf guard leader? How does he differ from a sergeant?


you really havnt opened a SW codex have you ?


I have, but not recently.

You can give sergeant an option to take those items.

EDIT: Though indeed as Lance says, Lieutenant is a good way to represent them too.



a lieutenant is not a part of the tactical squad.


Boo fething hoo.

Again, your regular marines are on a line waiting for legends. NONE of the units you are complaining about will be around. They are all going to get some kind of representation as Primaris. Thats the future of the SM line. The writing has been on the wall for 3 years. Intercessors don't act like Tac marines. But guess what? they are the new tac marines. You are going to get Primaris versions of the units and they won't be exactly the same. Have you just realized this now?


ya,,, welcome to the party, this is what everyone on my side of the wall is complaining about. we dont like the idea of our faction slowly being turned to generic white bread with no unique substance. So screw you for gatekeeping and telling us to stop whining that our entire faction identity is being thrown in the trash.

We dont want to play a different faction, we anted to play this faction. Give us our own upgrades or leave us alone. Why the feth do you think its ok for you to be telling us to get in line and play the generic stuff we didnt sign up for or not play at all. this change is gak.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/28 15:37:52


As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Since 8e many mini characters such as champions, standard bearers, warlocks etc are no longer part of the squad. Same with the Wolf Guard Battle leader.

Seriously you are utterly fixated on nonsense technical details and not on what they are supposed to represent. I've played this game since the second edition. Rules change.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 15:37:53


Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in se
[DCM]
δ³Σx²





 Crimson wrote:
Since 8e many mini characters such as champions, standard bearers, warlocks etc are no longer part of the squad. Same with the Wolf Guard Battle leader.

Seriously you are utterly fixated on nonsense technical details and not on what they are supposed to represent. I've played this game since the second edition. Rules change.



cool,

so again, 10 datasheets to represent everything and we'll focus on what they are supposed to represent. And if you dont like that i will tell you stop fixating on the technical details and focus on pretending you have a unique army. I have played since 4th, plenty of time to watch rules change.

Wolf-gaurd battle leaders are not wolf gaurd pack leaders.... again,,, go pick up a SW codex and figure out what you are arguing against.
Wolf gaurd battle leaders are not part of the squad, your right.

As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

I believe it was in this thread that someone said something like "Don't moan about your missing options when they aren't even gone yet."

There's a possibility that GW will include literally every single unique datasheet (even stuff like Wolf Guard Leaders, that are just Lieutenants) in the supplement.
There's a stronger possibility that most all the unique ones will be included, and you'll get a blurb about how Lieutenants are called something else in the fluff section.

You're acting like SW are losing everything, when the supplement has literally just been announced within the past week.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in se
[DCM]
δ³Σx²





again,,, wolf gaurd battle leaders are not the same thing as wolf gaurd pack leaders... the pack leaders are in units, the battle leaders are lieutenants...

and if your right ,,, like I said before, we are going to have a supplement of 40+ exceptions / datasheets.... do you really think they are going to make exceptions/ new datasheet for every single unit in the core book except for primaris ??

As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 Type40 wrote:
again,,, wolf gaurd battle leaders are not the same thing as wolf gaurd pack leaders... the pack leaders are in units, the battle leaders are lieutenants...

and if your right ,,, like I said before, we are going to have a supplement of 40+ exceptions / datasheets.... do you really think they are going to make exceptions/ new datasheet for every single unit in the core book except for primaris ??
So why do SW get Terminator Squad Leaders, and Iron Hands don't?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




 Type40 wrote:
cool, another point for the 10 datasheet game.

We just remove the variety in the mechanics and we use one of the standard 10 datasheets for your units and you can call them what ever, paint them what ever and pretend they are unique and full of identity.

You stultify the subject because it is a very emotional topic for you and have the fear of losing your investment.

Your "10 datasheets for everybody" does work as a template for game design, though, and is not an argument against consolidation.

Lets keep it simple:

Marines:
- Strong Hero
- Psyker Hero
- Heavy Troops
- Light Troops
- Walker

Orks:
- Strong Hero
- Psyker Hero
- Heavy Troops
- Light Troops
- Walker

Thats already a thing, isn't it? The races/factions having different rules and emphasis on different units is a welcomed addition to the game. Orks do play vastly different from Marines play different form Eldar play different from Genestealer Cults and so on.
   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?




Noctis Labyrinthus

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's disturbing how gleeful some of you are at the idea of various armies losing their identity.


It's just typical Marine envy from the less fortunate players (probably guard). It's sad to see, but thankfully their hate is largely impotent.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Yet Space Wolves don't play different to Space Marines even with all the "unqiue" factors. Thanks for playing!

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






No? not going to talk about what's actually going to happen with this change? Just going to fixate on the idea that you're going to have your Space Wolf squads replaced whole cloth with identical to UM primaris squads and you'll get no unique variations in your supplement book, despite

1) Unique variations of primaris already exist with the limited loadouts they currently have (primaris Death Company and Primaris Kill Teams)

2) GW felt all of 1 edition ago that your marine sub-faction was worth an investment of 10 or so brand new SKUs

I mean, suit yourself man. seems like you're being mad on the internet for the sake of being mad on the internet to me.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Void__Dragon wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's disturbing how gleeful some of you are at the idea of various armies losing their identity.


It's just typical Marine envy from the less fortunate players (probably guard). It's sad to see, but thankfully their hate is largely impotent.

I play Marines and I say the change is 100% in the right direction.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I play Marines and I say the change is 100% in the right direction.

Yep, same here!

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

30K makes the legions feel very different from one another through a careful selection of army-wide special rules, a couple (at most) of unique units per legion, and unique characters. It doesn't take a whole separate codex for every Legion, with minor changes to every unit, to make each legion feel distinctive.

I've played plenty of historical wargames where the only strong difference between factions was some flavor of army-wide special rule. When designed well, this can still make them function very differently from one another.

It really seems to be a 40K thing where people get hung up on minutiae as the defining element of their army's identity, especially when so many broader elements of a faction's identity (eg Space Marines being well-coordinated and having centuries of experience) aren't represented in the rules at all.

I like how 8th introduced subfactions. You get subfaction-specific characters, stratagems, and army-wide special rules. That's really all it takes to make White Scars feel very different from Iron Hands, or Vostroyans from Tallarn. The need to have all the Marine subfactions be their own little faction is not, IMO, a net positive. Consolidation is a step in the right direction.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 15:54:47


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




the_scotsman wrote:OK, how about what they're actually going to do:

You'll get a space wolves supplement.

It'll have the datasheets for blood claws, grey hunters, WG terminators, SW dreads, SW flyers, wolfen, and fenrisian wolves in it, as well as all the named characters.

You'll get a new unit called "Primaris Blood Claws" that is based on the primaris assault marines kit. it'll give you primaris assault marines with BS4+ and the bezerk rule.

And you'll get a new unit called "Primaris Grey Hunters" that gives you something like the ability to take a unit of intercessors with whatever loadout you want - chainsword+pistol, rifle, assault rifle, stalker rifle all mixed up, plus the option for a WG squad leader.

And otherwise, you use the codex space marines units. You lose the fact that bikers are called "swiftclaws" and scouts are called "wolf scouts" but gain stuff like TFCs, Centurions, whatever. Also, you won't have to wait for updates to your stuff independently of marines anymore, or wait for access to new shared equipment.

Everything Space Wolves had that was unique, stays. Everything that was shared, is now updated all at once.

I don't get how this isn't a better system for you. And later on down the line, when the great squattening occurs, you'll have a special space wolves box that takes all the special heads and special armor and special helmets and scales them up to primaris-scale. Of course they'll make that, why would they stop printing cash by making special snowflake marine stuff?



Seems very similar to how they had done things when I started in third edition.

You had the basic SM codex, and the various supplements for DA, BA and SW. You had one or maybe two pages of special rules, the entries for the unique units for that chapter and references to the space marine codex for things that were common. Space wolves had the most unique stuff with their wolfNOUN officers and heroes(even then, it was just a fancy name, and 'terminator honours' or +1 attack baked into the profile), grey hunters, blood claws, long fangs, the leman Russ variant (heh, anyone remember that bad boy?!) but pretty much everything else as was available (land speeders, rhinos, land raiders, predators etc) said 'refer to sm codex'.

I also would like to point to people that crunch justifications for 'identity' (i.e. Space wolves are space wolves because they have all THESE SPECIAL RULES and THESE UNITS and take them away and THEYRE NO LONGER space wolves) is building a house on shifting sand. I've seen the rules crunch for space wolves, and most other factions completely reinvented. Back when I started, SW (or BA or DA)had nothing like the rules distinctions they have now and yet they were still sw, ba or da. Hell, the space wolves I remember them being are totally different to the current imagining of space wolves. Space wolves could take leman Russ exterminators (I think that was the name, it had tl autocannons) Grey hunters had 'true grit'. Space wolves had a 'retinues' rule where you had to have 1 hq per 750 points. You had a cap on wolf guard. I'm pretty sure all that's gone now. And guess what? Space wolves are still space wolves. Just like space wolves were space wolves without the huge and frankly ridiculous amount of wolfclawfangnouns creating artificial distinctions. Just like BA in third were BA without the ridiculous amount of artificial BA only stuff and bloodnouns. Rules change. Rules are ethereal. Rules are cast shadows. They are merely mechanics and are merely representations of the identity. Said identity can be evoked many separate ways.

Grey hunters as either intercessors (assault or boltgunny), blood claws as pistol and cc reivers with a shock assault special rule (actually makes a hell of a lot of sense considering that reivers are the 'new guys'. A lot of what makes space wolves space wolves can be mounded this way.

Folding the variant chapters into a central codex with supplements describing the differences sounds like a reimagining of how they did it in third. I'm perfectly ok with it. Frankly it sounds like a good idea and there are plenty ways of using the supplements to make the variant chapters unique after the fact, whilst still referencing the core document.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/07/28 15:59:40


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws



Sioux Falls, SD

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Void__Dragon wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's disturbing how gleeful some of you are at the idea of various armies losing their identity.


It's just typical Marine envy from the less fortunate players (probably guard). It's sad to see, but thankfully their hate is largely impotent.

I play Marines and I say the change is 100% in the right direction.


I think rolling them into one book with supplements can definitely work, and I think it can work without all the various factions loosing their uniqueness.

Blood for the bloo... wait no, I meant for Sanguinius!  
   
Made in fr
Elite Tyranid Warrior



France

 Void__Dragon wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's disturbing how gleeful some of you are at the idea of various armies losing their identity.


It's just typical Marine envy from the less fortunate players (probably guard). It's sad to see, but thankfully their hate is largely impotent.

There's also many marine players that play another chapter than DA/BA/SW that feel some jealousy for not being able to field the specific units that they have.

You had the basic SM codex, and the various supplements for DA, BA and SW. You had one or maybe two pages of special rules, the entries for the unique units for that chapter and references to the space marine codex for things that were common. Space wolves had the most unique stuff with their wolfNOUN officers and heroes(even then, it was just a fancy name, and 'terminator honours' or +1 attack baked into the profile), grey hunters, blood claws, long fangs, the leman Russ variant (heh, anyone remember that bad boy?!) but pretty much everything else as was available (land speeders, rhinos, land raiders, predators etc) said 'refer to sm codex'.

I've read this ten times already and it's still nonsensical. I started in 2nd ed., I have the third ed. DA "supplement" : back then DA had no specific kit, they were basically where the UM are nowadays, a SM chapter with a few rules for some units (DW/RW) and unique characters. Time changed, why do you guys want to go back ?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/28 16:07:18


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 JNAProductions wrote:

There's a possibility that GW will include literally every single unique datasheet (even stuff like Wolf Guard Leaders, that are just Lieutenants) in the supplement.
There's a stronger possibility that most all the unique ones will be included, and you'll get a blurb about how Lieutenants are called something else in the fluff section.


This is quite literally how the Marine supplements are structured, and it sets a solid framework on what to expect. Unique units plus pertinent special rules specific to a given subfaction are dealt with in the supplement, while the shared units are derived from the core Codex.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




WhiteDog wrote:
 Void__Dragon wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's disturbing how gleeful some of you are at the idea of various armies losing their identity.


It's just typical Marine envy from the less fortunate players (probably guard). It's sad to see, but thankfully their hate is largely impotent.

There's also many marine players that play another chapter than DA/BA/SW that feel some jealousy for not being able to field the specific units that they have.

You had the basic SM codex, and the various supplements for DA, BA and SW. You had one or maybe two pages of special rules, the entries for the unique units for that chapter and references to the space marine codex for things that were common. Space wolves had the most unique stuff with their wolfNOUN officers and heroes(even then, it was just a fancy name, and 'terminator honours' or +1 attack baked into the profile), grey hunters, blood claws, long fangs, the leman Russ variant (heh, anyone remember that bad boy?!) but pretty much everything else as was available (land speeders, rhinos, land raiders, predators etc) said 'refer to sm codex'.

I've read this ten times already and it's still nonsensical. I started in 2nd ed., I have the third ed. DA "supplement" : back then DA had no specific kit, they were basically where the UM are nowadays, a SM chapter with a few rules for some units (DW/RW) and unique characters. Time changed, why do you guys want to go back ?

I actually used the 5th edition Space Wolves codex and used the 8th Dark Angels so you're wrong again.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




WhiteDog wrote:

There's also many marine players that play another chapter than DA/BA/SW that feel some jealousy for not being able to field the specific units that they have.


That's the trade off. If you want to run Iron Hands, you dont get Ravenwing or Sanguinary Guard any more than Blood Angels get Feirros.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 16:10:43


 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Deadnight wrote:
I also would like to point to people that crunch justifications for 'identity' (i.e. Space wolves are space wolves because they have all THESE SPECIAL RULES and THESE UNITS and take them away and THEYRE NO LONGER space wolves) is building a house on shifting sand. I've seen the rules crunch for space wolves, and most other factions completely reinvented. Back when I started, SW (or BA or DA)had nothing like the rules distinctions they have now and yet they were still sw, ba or da. Hell, the space wolves I remember them being are totally different to the current imagining of space wolves. Space wolves could take leman Russ exterminators (I think that was the name, it had tl autocannons) Grey hunters had 'true grit'. Space wolves had a 'retinues' rule where you had to have 1 hq per 750 points. You had a cap on wolf guard. I'm pretty sure all that's gone now. And guess what? Space wolves are still space wolves. Just like space wolves were space wolves without the huge and frankly ridiculous amount of wolfclawfangnouns creating artificial distinctions. Just like BA in third were BA without the ridiculous amount of artificial BA only stuff and bloodnouns. Rules change. Rules are ethereal. Rules are cast shadows. They are merely mechanics and are merely representations of the identity. Said identity can be evoked many separate ways.

Yep, exactly this. Rules come and go. They're not the identity.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Deadnight wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:OK, how about what they're actually going to do:

You'll get a space wolves supplement.

It'll have the datasheets for blood claws, grey hunters, WG terminators, SW dreads, SW flyers, wolfen, and fenrisian wolves in it, as well as all the named characters.

You'll get a new unit called "Primaris Blood Claws" that is based on the primaris assault marines kit. it'll give you primaris assault marines with BS4+ and the bezerk rule.

And you'll get a new unit called "Primaris Grey Hunters" that gives you something like the ability to take a unit of intercessors with whatever loadout you want - chainsword+pistol, rifle, assault rifle, stalker rifle all mixed up, plus the option for a WG squad leader.

And otherwise, you use the codex space marines units. You lose the fact that bikers are called "swiftclaws" and scouts are called "wolf scouts" but gain stuff like TFCs, Centurions, whatever. Also, you won't have to wait for updates to your stuff independently of marines anymore, or wait for access to new shared equipment.

Everything Space Wolves had that was unique, stays. Everything that was shared, is now updated all at once.

I don't get how this isn't a better system for you. And later on down the line, when the great squattening occurs, you'll have a special space wolves box that takes all the special heads and special armor and special helmets and scales them up to primaris-scale. Of course they'll make that, why would they stop printing cash by making special snowflake marine stuff?



Seems very similar to how they had done things when I started in third edition.

You had the basic SM codex, and the various supplements for DA, BA and SW. You had one or maybe two pages of special rules, the entries for the unique units for that chapter and references to the space marine codex for things that were common. Space wolves had the most unique stuff with their wolfNOUN officers and heroes(even then, it was just a fancy name, and 'terminator honours' or +1 attack baked into the profile), grey hunters, blood claws, long fangs, the leman Russ variant (heh, anyone remember that bad boy?!) but pretty much everything else as was available (land speeders, rhinos, land raiders, predators etc) said 'refer to sm codex'.

I also would like to point to people that crunch justifications for 'identity' (i.e. Space wolves are space wolves because they have all THESE SPECIAL RULES and THESE UNITS and take them away and THEYRE NO LONGER space wolves) is building a house on shifting sand. I've seen the rules crunch for space wolves, and most other factions completely reinvented. Back when I started, SW (or BA or DA)had nothing like the rules distinctions they have now and yet they were still sw, ba or da. Hell, the space wolves I remember them being are totally different to the current imagining of space wolves. Space wolves could take leman Russ exterminators (I think that was the name, it had tl autocannons) Grey hunters had 'true grit'. Space wolves had a 'retinues' rule where you had to have 1 hq per 750 points. You had a cap on wolf guard. I'm pretty sure all that's gone now. And guess what? Space wolves are still space wolves. Just like space wolves were space wolves without the huge and frankly ridiculous amount of wolfclawfangnouns creating artificial distinctions. Just like BA in third were BA without the ridiculous amount of artificial BA only stuff and bloodnouns. Rules change. Rules are ethereal. Rules are cast shadows. They are merely mechanics and are merely representations of the identity. Said identity can be evoked many separate ways.

Grey hunters as either intercessors (assault or boltgunny), blood claws as pistol and cc reivers with a shock assault special rule (actually makes a hell of a lot of sense considering that reivers are the 'new guys'. A lot of what makes space wolves space wolves can be mounded this way.

Folding the variant chapters into a central codex with supplements describing the differences sounds like a reimagining of how they did it in third. I'm perfectly ok with it. Frankly it sounds like a good idea and there are plenty ways of using the supplements to make the variant chapters unique after the fact, whilst still referencing the core document.


This right here^

The reason every player from every other faction is so dismissive about special snowflake marines "not feeling special enough" is because the very first edition that almost anyone other than marines got any kind of rules distinction tied to their subgroup was...uh...8th. We made our armies unique by choosing units based on our theme, not by having a unit of devastators that looked the same as the other marine's devastators but got split fire for free because they're actually Long Fangs instead.

Different factions being held to different arbitrary standards is absolutely a weakness of 8th, and consolidation would absolutely be a good thing. One statline for all shared marine units with one point cost would absolutely be a massive improvement over Predators existing in 19 different publications.

While we're at it, can we pretty please universalize:

1) what unit types get subfaction traits
2) how much unique stuff each subfaction trait gives you in terms of WL traits, strats, etc
3) How certain universal abilities like "reroll to hit" auras work?
4) how universal strats like 'take another relic' work?

Can we have them all in one place, so when we change them, they can just be changed all at once for everyone, and tons of factions don't have to sit around waiting to buy a new 40$ book so GW will (MAYBE) change "reroll all misses" to "may reroll all hit rolls" or to finally get subfaction traits on their ding dang vehicles?


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in fr
Elite Tyranid Warrior



France

 Crimson wrote:
Deadnight wrote:
I also would like to point to people that crunch justifications for 'identity' (i.e. Space wolves are space wolves because they have all THESE SPECIAL RULES and THESE UNITS and take them away and THEYRE NO LONGER space wolves) is building a house on shifting sand. I've seen the rules crunch for space wolves, and most other factions completely reinvented. Back when I started, SW (or BA or DA)had nothing like the rules distinctions they have now and yet they were still sw, ba or da. Hell, the space wolves I remember them being are totally different to the current imagining of space wolves. Space wolves could take leman Russ exterminators (I think that was the name, it had tl autocannons) Grey hunters had 'true grit'. Space wolves had a 'retinues' rule where you had to have 1 hq per 750 points. You had a cap on wolf guard. I'm pretty sure all that's gone now. And guess what? Space wolves are still space wolves. Just like space wolves were space wolves without the huge and frankly ridiculous amount of wolfclawfangnouns creating artificial distinctions. Just like BA in third were BA without the ridiculous amount of artificial BA only stuff and bloodnouns. Rules change. Rules are ethereal. Rules are cast shadows. They are merely mechanics and are merely representations of the identity. Said identity can be evoked many separate ways.

Yep, exactly this. Rules come and go. They're not the identity.

No : they were not essential to DA/BA/DW identity back then. Since then, it changed.
It's like saying that DG don't need their blightlord terminator or bloat drones because DG existed before those.... no it changed. DG's identity expanded from just a troop choice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 16:18:13


 
   
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Stop shouting gatekeeping Type40. If anyone is gatekeeping you it's GW. You don't even seem to understand what it means. When your old marines get moved to legends GW is still giving you the bone that IS legends. Better then being squatted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
WhiteDog wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Deadnight wrote:
I also would like to point to people that crunch justifications for 'identity' (i.e. Space wolves are space wolves because they have all THESE SPECIAL RULES and THESE UNITS and take them away and THEYRE NO LONGER space wolves) is building a house on shifting sand. I've seen the rules crunch for space wolves, and most other factions completely reinvented. Back when I started, SW (or BA or DA)had nothing like the rules distinctions they have now and yet they were still sw, ba or da. Hell, the space wolves I remember them being are totally different to the current imagining of space wolves. Space wolves could take leman Russ exterminators (I think that was the name, it had tl autocannons) Grey hunters had 'true grit'. Space wolves had a 'retinues' rule where you had to have 1 hq per 750 points. You had a cap on wolf guard. I'm pretty sure all that's gone now. And guess what? Space wolves are still space wolves. Just like space wolves were space wolves without the huge and frankly ridiculous amount of wolfclawfangnouns creating artificial distinctions. Just like BA in third were BA without the ridiculous amount of artificial BA only stuff and bloodnouns. Rules change. Rules are ethereal. Rules are cast shadows. They are merely mechanics and are merely representations of the identity. Said identity can be evoked many separate ways.

Yep, exactly this. Rules come and go. They're not the identity.

No : they were not essential to DA/BA/DW identity back then. Since then, it changed.
It's like saying that DG don't need their blightlord terminator or bloat drones because DG existed before those.... no it changed. DG's identity expanded from just a troop choice.


It's not the end of the world. You'll live through this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 16:26:16



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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how considerate of GW.

I'll live through this yes. But the 1000s of dollars and hours put into my army wont... thanks GW.


As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.

RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
 
   
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 Type40 wrote:
how considerate of GW.

I'll live through this yes. But the 1000s of dollars and hours put into my army wont... thanks GW.

So, what have you lost? As of right now, what have you lost?

Literally nothing-the supplement isn't out yet.

And if the Ultras supplement is any indication, you're unlikely to lose anything even when it comes out.

I'm often against "Wait and see" because a lot of the time, people say that when we've already waited and saw. But in this case? Wait and flipping see.

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WhiteDog wrote:
I've read this ten times already and it's still nonsensical. I started in 2nd ed., I have the third ed. DA "supplement" : back then DA had no specific kit, they were basically where the UM are nowadays, a SM chapter with a few rules for some units (DW/RW) and unique characters. Time changed, why do you guys want to go back ?


Hardly nonsensical, for what it's worth, and going backwards isn't necessarily a bad thing. Especially since the changes implemented from third to now weren't always... positive steps forward, shall we say. Sometimes the greatest wisdom in the world comes from days gone by. And sometimes striding forward blindly without looking back or considering where you've been, or what worked before ends up with you walking off a cliff.


WhiteDog wrote:
No : they were not essential to DA/BA/DW identity back then. Since then, it changed.
It's like saying that DG don't need their blightlord terminator or bloat drones because DG existed before those.... no it changed. DG's identity expanded from just a troop choice.


And now it's changing again.

I would also argue it's not necessary now to their identity either.

And go back further- the most recent chaos dexes are noted to be kind of crummy. I remember the chaos 3.5th edition, prior to DG being 'just a troops choice' when a death guard something was a mark of nurgle put on a space marine. DG couldn't take bikers, and were restricted with rhinos, but they were still death guard. I also remember blight drones in forgeworld. You could still evoke the legion without the DG codex. 'Blightlord terminator' is just an artificial distinction for a death guard in terminator armour to justify gw selling a book. Abstractions added to a book don't necessarily add to the identity. It's an abstract and it's not necessarily needed to shape the thing it evokes. Remember, rules are cast shadows. Back then,in 3.5, they weren't 'blightlord terminators' but a chosen, with a terminator armour, suitable daemonic gifts and the mark of nurgle would be that in all but name (and hey, why not just call him that*)still make your average marine fill his waste shunt.

*Most chapters probably have unique cultural terms for their warriors, for their heroes, for their veterans, for their young 'ins. they don't necessarily all need to be special snowflakes represented by distinct rules identities.

 Type40 wrote:
how considerate of GW.

I'll live through this yes. But the 1000s of dollars and hours put into my army wont... thanks GW.



I'm pretty sure you'll be fine bud. I had a look outside and can confirm the sky is not falling. Your models won't disintegrate because the rules are being packaged a slightly different way. The time you spent, assuming you enjoyed it, was still worth it.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/07/28 16:48:52


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 catbarf wrote:
30K makes the legions feel very different from one another through a careful selection of army-wide special rules, a couple (at most) of unique units per legion, and unique characters. It doesn't take a whole separate codex for every Legion, with minor changes to every unit, to make each legion feel distinctive.

I've played plenty of historical wargames where the only strong difference between factions was some flavor of army-wide special rule. When designed well, this can still make them function very differently from one another.

It really seems to be a 40K thing where people get hung up on minutiae as the defining element of their army's identity, especially when so many broader elements of a faction's identity (eg Space Marines being well-coordinated and having centuries of experience) aren't represented in the rules at all.

I like how 8th introduced subfactions. You get subfaction-specific characters, stratagems, and army-wide special rules. That's really all it takes to make White Scars feel very different from Iron Hands, or Vostroyans from Tallarn. The need to have all the Marine subfactions be their own little faction is not, IMO, a net positive. Consolidation is a step in the right direction.


I can't believe this post didn't attract more attention. It's spot on about the 30k books. With careful selection of traits and elegance in approach, armies can play completely differently even though they come from the same 'Codex'. What 30k dud, though, was balance stuff internally to a fantastic degree. Your Legion might have access to X but it loses out on Y. Outside of 30k GW have never really gotten the hang of the latter part.
   
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WhiteDog wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Deadnight wrote:
I also would like to point to people that crunch justifications for 'identity' (i.e. Space wolves are space wolves because they have all THESE SPECIAL RULES and THESE UNITS and take them away and THEYRE NO LONGER space wolves) is building a house on shifting sand. I've seen the rules crunch for space wolves, and most other factions completely reinvented. Back when I started, SW (or BA or DA)had nothing like the rules distinctions they have now and yet they were still sw, ba or da. Hell, the space wolves I remember them being are totally different to the current imagining of space wolves. Space wolves could take leman Russ exterminators (I think that was the name, it had tl autocannons) Grey hunters had 'true grit'. Space wolves had a 'retinues' rule where you had to have 1 hq per 750 points. You had a cap on wolf guard. I'm pretty sure all that's gone now. And guess what? Space wolves are still space wolves. Just like space wolves were space wolves without the huge and frankly ridiculous amount of wolfclawfangnouns creating artificial distinctions. Just like BA in third were BA without the ridiculous amount of artificial BA only stuff and bloodnouns. Rules change. Rules are ethereal. Rules are cast shadows. They are merely mechanics and are merely representations of the identity. Said identity can be evoked many separate ways.

Yep, exactly this. Rules come and go. They're not the identity.

No : they were not essential to DA/BA/DW identity back then. Since then, it changed.
It's like saying that DG don't need their blightlord terminator or bloat drones because DG existed before those.... no it changed. DG's identity expanded from just a troop choice.

Well seeing as Bloat Drones are actually new and Blightlord Terminators didn't actually have a unit entry until just this last edition, no they're not part of faction identity.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Yep, Space Wolf rules are so crucial to their identity. That's why people used the book to play Iron Hands.

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