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 The Phazer wrote:
Am I reading that right that Guard effectively get a fairly significant free buff when the Marine codex comes out? They get the weapons improvement but their points won't be adjusted until their codex comes up.

Meanwhile Xenos armies kinda get hosed tbh.

I think it's brash to assume the updated weapons profiles weren't already considered in the new points update. If they knew they were rolling out changes game-wide on profiles, might as well bake them in early.
Many of the increases (Heavy Bolters, Multi-Meltas) only make sense when you factor in the updated profiles. So you're already paying for them, you just won't get updates to your units until later.

Xenos still get hosed.

If chaos space marines come in at 17 points each, all of a sudden they become a very viable, if not the best choice for troop squads with 2 wounds, especially with those new reaper chaincannon's

Bluflash wrote:
I think it's brash to assume the updated weapons profiles weren't already considered in the new points update. If they knew they were rolling out changes game-wide on profiles, might as well bake them in early.
Many of the increases (Heavy Bolters, Multi-Meltas) only make sense when you factor in the updated profiles. So you're already paying for them, you just won't get updates to your units until later.

Xenos still get hosed.

I might have assumed that, but Guard didn't exactly seem overcosted compared to Marines before and Marines are going up.

Some of the CA points costings seem to make even less sense now than they did before.

tneva82 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Heavy weapon for deep strike assasins. Lol. Better get something really good as well. 5 man squads to ds into objectives was only thing good at

At BS2 they are firing at their old hit rate anyway if they deepstrike. They also got a T bonus, and the weapon is much better.

They got buffed for sure, I'm curious to see their special rules.

Much better? 2 shots better than 1. Rarely you don't　have target nearby anyway. Mortal output halved, less shots means also less rolls to be made. You get s5 vs t4 bonus vs 3+ for half the mortals.

The 2 shots were absolute garbage. Its a total red heron argument. Now when they intercept they will actually wreck the unit they were interrupting. That strength 5 and -2 is a very big deal and honestly I am glad they are 36" range now. You can always just deploy them near a lord and enjoy sniping for once with rerolls to wound to boot.

You realize right vs 3+ double shot is equal to -2? That -2 is better only vs 2+ armour? So s5 vs s4 vs half the mortals. I doubt s5 vs t4 is worth that much. actually math shows old stat is better vs t4 3+. ...

So much for wrecking target. Ps vs sob and anything with 4+ or less old is better

Maybe check math in future well still end result is damage is junk either way as this isn't improvement　but side step so still just 5 to land to unguarded objective if you really want to use them

I don't know if Smug is really the best attitude when your argument hinges on dismissing a large number of advantage for nine one hundredths of a wound.

Vs Marine
Old with rapid fire: 2/3 * 1/2 * 1/3 * 2 = 2/9 = .22 + .33 MW = .55
New heavy: 2/3 * 2/3 * 2/3 = 8/27 = .29 + .17 MW = .46

That also has two caveats that render it moot, only within 12", and only on a deepstrike turn. For instance, with a 36" range, the new death marks could start on the board, so they would get an extra turn of shooting in addition to better shooting overall. Deep striking within 12" is suicide against most forces, so the old deathmarks would give up kill points and only get to shoot once. The new deathmarks can drop an LT a round (5/6 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 10 = 3.7 + 1.67 MW = 5.37), from the safety of cover, from the first round on. I mean there isn't even a comparison here right, the old deathmarks would almost never make their points, the new ones can do it quite a bit easier since they are tougher, can attack from relative safety, and when not moving have a superior weapon profile.

Bluflash wrote:

 The Phazer wrote:
Am I reading that right that Guard effectively get a fairly significant free buff when the Marine codex comes out? They get the weapons improvement but their points won't be adjusted until their codex comes up.

Meanwhile Xenos armies kinda get hosed tbh.

I think it's brash to assume the updated weapons profiles weren't already considered in the new points update. If they knew they were rolling out changes game-wide on profiles, might as well bake them in early.
Many of the increases (Heavy Bolters, Multi-Meltas) only make sense when you factor in the updated profiles. So you're already paying for them, you just won't get updates to your units until later.

Xenos still get hosed.

As a Tau player I am quite happy with the melta changes, because we will be seeing a buff to our fusion blaster no doubt. Just gotta wait for the codex.

 Crusaderobr wrote:

As a Tau player I am quite happy with the melta changes, because we will be seeing a buff to our fusion blaster no doubt. Just gotta wait for the codex.

Yeah, well. There might be a buff. It may not be _that_ buff.
Much the same way that Tau plasma is fundamentally different from Imperial plasma.

I can already see the conversation-
'Well, tau players took fusion more often than Imperial players took meltas, so we obviously don't have to buff it the same way. Besides its _fusion_ and not _melta_, and we want our weapons to be distinct, right fellow hypothetical writers?'
'Vague approval noises'

Voss wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:

As a Tau player I am quite happy with the melta changes, because we will be seeing a buff to our fusion blaster no doubt. Just gotta wait for the codex.

Yeah, well. There might be a buff. It may not be _that_ buff.
Much the same way that Tau plasma is fundamentally different from Imperial plasma.

I can already see the conversation-
'Well, tau players took fusion more often than Imperial players took meltas, so we obviously don't have to buff it the same way. Besides its _fusion_ and not _melta_, and we want our weapons to be distinct, right fellow hypothetical writers?'
'Vague approval noises'

I thought Tau was going to get a plasma rifle update for 8th, since they are already going to be buffing the fusion blaster for 9th ( they kinda have to at this point ) maybe they will finally give us an overcharge profile for the plasma rifle.

Tau don't have an overcharge profile and haven't had one that I can recall.

Their plasma is a bit less powerful but it's safe. Just like Eldar stuff.

 bullyboy wrote:

DanielFM wrote:
So being Primaris no longer means anything. Thanks GW

It means +1 attack and a better gun

Yeah, a largely useless attack for non-combat units. And an measly extra point of AP. Woah, breathtaking. You lose access to drop pods and special weapons as a trade-off for the awesome upgrade.
Plus, I mean in terms of background-to-tabletop representation. A big bioengineering improvement to be taller, bulkier, stronger and have special organs to be tougher grants +1 attack in-game. Immersion breaking. Dumb. A kick in the nuts.
I can no longer field Intercessors knowing the squat version of themselves in front of them are physically equals to them.

So, besides selling a lot of new Spess Marine models, what was the point of Primaris?

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
So, besides selling a lot of new Spess Marine models, what was the point of Primaris?

Getting people to rebuy their armies.

Firstborn squat will still be coming eventually, this just helps mitigate the complaints.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
So, besides selling a lot of new Spess Marine models, what was the point of Primaris?

Getting people to rebuy their armies.

Firstborn squat will still be coming eventually, this just helps mitigate the complaints.

I mean, i assumed 'getting people to rebuy their armies' was included within 'selling a lot of new Spess Marine models'.

About the only thing missing now is Primaris in Rhinos and Tacticals in Repulsors.

They've realised that they have an absolutely huge backlog of no longer wanted units and have decided to give people a reason to buy them.

Honestly though, as long as point costs are adequate, marines being 2 wounds has always been an ultimate no brainer tbh.

Are we going to see Heavy bolter devastator squads, as an anti marine unit?

Additionally, I wonder if onslaught gatling cannons will stay at D1? I have a inkling they may do.

Considering the history of the weapon in the past, I find assault cannons disappointing to remain at D1... Those things use to do some serious damage back in the day (2nd edition). I may be miss remembering the terminator sheet though.

Also, and this genuinely could be down the pipeline... An imperial civil war with old marines vs primaris, another reason to buy the old marine units.

If there's an Imperial civil war coming, it's the Emperor's Faithful versus Guilliman.

Mark my words there. They've laid groundwork in the lore for some in the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition distrusting Guilliman's rise to power.

 Crusaderobr wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:

As a Tau player I am quite happy with the melta changes, because we will be seeing a buff to our fusion blaster no doubt. Just gotta wait for the codex.

Yeah, well. There might be a buff. It may not be _that_ buff.
Much the same way that Tau plasma is fundamentally different from Imperial plasma.

I can already see the conversation-
'Well, tau players took fusion more often than Imperial players took meltas, so we obviously don't have to buff it the same way. Besides its _fusion_ and not _melta_, and we want our weapons to be distinct, right fellow hypothetical writers?'
'Vague approval noises'

I thought Tau was going to get a plasma rifle update for 8th, since they are already going to be buffing the fusion blaster for 9th ( they kinda have to at this point ) maybe they will finally give us an overcharge profile for the plasma rifle.

No? Tau intentionally don't allow their plasma weapons to overcharge. Its a deliberate contrast point to Imperials, who don't value the lives of their people.
Its weirdly unfluffy that overcharge crept into other weapons.

Don't get locked into the idea that they 'have to' buff any specific thing. They may decide that burst cannons need more range or AP or whatever.

A lot of the upcoming changes will likely depend more on how GW feels an army 'should' play, not what buffs players feel are 'needed'

 Kanluwen wrote:
If there's an Imperial civil war coming, it's the Emperor's Faithful versus Guilliman.

Mark my words there. They've laid groundwork in the lore for some in the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition distrusting Guilliman's rise to power.

Of course they don't trust him, they have had to relinquish power...

Voss wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:

As a Tau player I am quite happy with the melta changes, because we will be seeing a buff to our fusion blaster no doubt. Just gotta wait for the codex.

Yeah, well. There might be a buff. It may not be _that_ buff.
Much the same way that Tau plasma is fundamentally different from Imperial plasma.

I can already see the conversation-
'Well, tau players took fusion more often than Imperial players took meltas, so we obviously don't have to buff it the same way. Besides its _fusion_ and not _melta_, and we want our weapons to be distinct, right fellow hypothetical writers?'
'Vague approval noises'

I thought Tau was going to get a plasma rifle update for 8th, since they are already going to be buffing the fusion blaster for 9th ( they kinda have to at this point ) maybe they will finally give us an overcharge profile for the plasma rifle.

No? Tau intentionally don't allow their plasma weapons to overcharge. Its a deliberate contrast point to Imperials, who don't value the lives of their people.
Its weirdly unfluffy that overcharge crept into other weapons.

Don't get locked into the idea that they 'have to' buff any specific thing. They may decide that burst cannons need more range or AP or whatever.

A lot of the upcoming changes will likely depend more on how GW feels an army 'should' play, not what buffs players feel are 'needed'

The problem with Tau plasma vs Imperial plasma is that in past editions Tau was S6 and Imperial S7 because imperial would get hot on 1's and Tau was safer. With 8th, Imperial plasma at S7 became "safe" and it gained a new overcharged profile with +1S and +1D, but Tau plasma remained the same. And now Ibris will come and tell me how poor imperials have had it agaisnt Tau but in fairness Tau plasma should be S7.

Voss wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:

As a Tau player I am quite happy with the melta changes, because we will be seeing a buff to our fusion blaster no doubt. Just gotta wait for the codex.

Yeah, well. There might be a buff. It may not be _that_ buff.
Much the same way that Tau plasma is fundamentally different from Imperial plasma.

I can already see the conversation-
'Well, tau players took fusion more often than Imperial players took meltas, so we obviously don't have to buff it the same way. Besides its _fusion_ and not _melta_, and we want our weapons to be distinct, right fellow hypothetical writers?'
'Vague approval noises'

An additional wrinkle to that: in spanish a "melta gun" is a "rifle de fusión", so this will be fun!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
So, besides selling a lot of new Spess Marine models, what was the point of Primaris?

Getting people to rebuy their armies.

But without the complains that they would have gotten if they had discontinued everything else.

Bolters 30" now too.

So a marine is an intercessor but 2pts cheaper one less attack and no minus one on the bolter

 Latro_ wrote:
Bolters 30" now too.

So a marine is an intercessor but 2pts cheaper one less attack and no minus one on the bolter

Those 2 points seem to buy a lot still.

Assuming vehicles are still locked to either primaris or standard, it can be worth the 2pts if you want impulsors for example.

If I genuinely had to guess, I think there may be a slight chance of special doctrines if you have an army full of non primaris, and primaris... Which again would be cool to be honest, I'm all game for distinction between each, and also not mixing both on the table top because it looks weird.

Yea I'd pay the 20pts for the extra attacks and minus 1. Guess the question is does that 20pts when spent on say a spec and heavy weapon balance it

Dudeface wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
Bolters 30" now too.

So a marine is an intercessor but 2pts cheaper one less attack and no minus one on the bolter

Those 2 points seem to buy a lot still.

The Special/Heavy Weapon saturation is still awful too.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
So, besides selling a lot of new Spess Marine models, what was the point of Primaris?

Getting people to rebuy their armies.

Firstborn squat will still be coming eventually, this just helps mitigate the complaints.

Funny, nobody from GW came round and forced me to rebuy *my* Marine army.

Well... The codex creep is going to be insane this time around..

So they valued an extra wound at 3 pts for a T4 3+ model with stacks and stacks of rules? Fantastic...

Voss wrote:


No? Tau intentionally don't allow their plasma weapons to overcharge. Its a deliberate contrast point to Imperials, who don't value the lives of their people.
Its weirdly unfluffy that overcharge crept into other weapons.

Well, I remember they tested a new weapon (Rail Rifle? - I guess from the video game) and Fire Warriors died using it - and when their leaders got angry, they were appeased by the Etereals because it was all for the Greater Good. Humm....

 Latro_ wrote:
Yea I'd pay the 20pts for the extra attacks and minus 1. Guess the question is does that 20pts when spent on say a spec and heavy weapon balance it

Those 20 points buy a Heavy bolter and a Combi plasma.
Only those make 2,71 wounds on average Vs Intercessors. 5 Bolt Rifles do 1,66 against the same target.
Isn't that enough to see the Tacticals are way better?

 Dryaktylus wrote:

Voss wrote:


No? Tau intentionally don't allow their plasma weapons to overcharge. Its a deliberate contrast point to Imperials, who don't value the lives of their people.
Its weirdly unfluffy that overcharge crept into other weapons.

Well, I remember they tested a new weapon (Rail Rifle? - I guess from the video game) and Fire Warriors died using it - and when their leaders got angry, they were appeased by the Etereals because it was all for the Greater Good. Humm....

That was awhile ago in both game universe and real life time. I think the background has it that the weapon has been further refined and there is no longer any risk, and maybe GW has decided that weapons that pose risk to the user don't fit in with the Tau army design paradigm after all.

I wish I still had the White Dwarf for it, but I think it was that there was a specific upgrade that came with the Rail Rifle and the gun being Rapid Fire.