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I wish I could find the comment I made a month ago about Deathmarks, in which I got dog piled for suggesting they will get buffed.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

DanielFM wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

DanielFM wrote:
So being Primaris no longer means anything. Thanks GW

It means +1 attack and a better gun

Yeah, a largely useless attack for non-combat units. And an measly extra point of AP. Woah, breathtaking. You lose access to drop pods and special weapons as a trade-off for the awesome upgrade.
Plus, I mean in terms of background-to-tabletop representation. A big bioengineering improvement to be taller, bulkier, stronger and have special organs to be tougher grants +1 attack in-game. Immersion breaking. Dumb. A kick in the nuts.
I can no longer field Intercessors knowing the squat version of themselves in front of them are physically equals to them.

From the games I've played so far, AP-1 matters way more than AP-3. You guys are crying about nothing at all, play the old marines, or play the new marines, or mix them for even more fun. JFC this hobbies supporters can never be made happy.

Ooooh Kay.

Wasn't expecting them to heft Oldmarines up to 2 wounds.

It does bring in some fluff questions. If there's not that much difference, why the big deal about "Crossing the Rubicon Primaris". Why would you bother? Sure, Marneus did it for political reasons and Mephiston was going a bit bonkers, but it's it really worthwhile for everyone else?

(I know the real reason is so that in 10th edition we get Primaris tactical squads, the new look marines are fleshed out, everyone pretends that firstborn don't exist and maybe, if we're lucky, they go for plastic Mk6 and Mk7 for heresy)

All in all I like the levelling off. Wonder if it'll transfer to Kill Team.

DanielFM wrote:
So being Primaris no longer means anything. Thanks GW

Heheheh. You see, this is phase 2. Now all Marines will be roughly the same. This blurs the line between "First Born" and "Primaris". For an entire edition Marines of all types will be on even footing.

Then, maybe in a year, maybe even 2 years, they can do a "rationalisation" of the Marine product line. "There are just so many kits, we thought it was time to retire some of the older ones..." and so on - justify it as saying they don't want to confuse new players - and the mini-Marines go out of production, leaving just Primaris Marines, which by now are just "regular" Marines, as all Marines have the same basic statline.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

DanielFM wrote:
So being Primaris no longer means anything. Thanks GW

Heheheh. You see, this is phase 2. Now all Marines will be roughly the same. This blurs the line between "First Born" and "Primaris". For an entire edition Marines of all types will be on even footing.

Then, maybe in a year, maybe even 2 years, they can do a "rationalisation" of the Marine product line. "There are just so many kits, we thought it was time to retire some of the older ones..." and so on - justify it as saying they don't want to confuse new players - and the mini-Marines go out of production, leaving just Primaris Marines, which by now are just "regular" Marines, as all Marines have the same basic statline.

Good the codex is way too big and needs to be cut down anyways

Togusa wrote:I wish I could find the comment I made a month ago about Deathmarks, in which I got dog piled for suggesting they will get buffed.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

DanielFM wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

DanielFM wrote:
So being Primaris no longer means anything. Thanks GW

It means +1 attack and a better gun

Yeah, a largely useless attack for non-combat units. And an measly extra point of AP. Woah, breathtaking. You lose access to drop pods and special weapons as a trade-off for the awesome upgrade.
Plus, I mean in terms of background-to-tabletop representation. A big bioengineering improvement to be taller, bulkier, stronger and have special organs to be tougher grants +1 attack in-game. Immersion breaking. Dumb. A kick in the nuts.
I can no longer field Intercessors knowing the squat version of themselves in front of them are physically equals to them.

From the games I've played so far, AP-1 matters way more than AP-3. You guys are crying about nothing at all, play the old marines, or play the new marines, or mix them for even more fun. JFC this hobbies supporters can never be made happy.

The AP means nothing. Check the numbers above. With the saved points, a heavy bolter and a Combi plasma do more damage alone than 5 Bolt Rifles.

Graphite wrote:Ooooh Kay.

Wasn't expecting them to heft Oldmarines up to 2 wounds.

It does bring in some fluff questions. If there's not that much difference, why the big deal about "Crossing the Rubicon Primaris". Why would you bother? Sure, Marneus did it for political reasons and Mephiston was going a bit bonkers, but it's it really worthwhile for everyone else?

This. If in game stats mean anything, they are practically the same. So much hype and effort from Cawl to get Marines +1 attack

Yeah but what about a heavy bolter in the hands of an IF unit on T1?

 bullyboy wrote:

DanielFM wrote:
So being Primaris no longer means anything. Thanks GW

It means +1 attack and a better gun

apparently it looks like the boltgun may range out to 30 inches. if thats the case intercessors are going to dissapper from space wolf armies

BrianDavion wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

DanielFM wrote:
So being Primaris no longer means anything. Thanks GW

It means +1 attack and a better gun

apparently it looks like the boltgun may range out to 30 inches. if thats the case intercessors are going to dissapper from space wolf armies

Same range, but it's still AP-.

BrianDavion wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

DanielFM wrote:
So being Primaris no longer means anything. Thanks GW

It means +1 attack and a better gun

apparently it looks like the boltgun may range out to 30 inches. if thats the case intercessors are going to dissapper from space wolf armies

Probably-18-point grey hunters (and blood claws) are wondering 'Are they really?'

Voss wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

DanielFM wrote:
So being Primaris no longer means anything. Thanks GW

It means +1 attack and a better gun

apparently it looks like the boltgun may range out to 30 inches. if thats the case intercessors are going to dissapper from space wolf armies

Probably-18-point grey hunters (and blood claws) are wondering 'Are they really?'

let's compare a grey hunter at 18 points to an intercessor at 20 points for a moment?

ok, so the grey hunter has a 30 range AP - Rpid fire 1 boltgun with an AP -1 chainsword for 2 S4 AP -1 attacks
intercessor has (with a standard bolt rifle) 30 inch AP -1 rapidfire 1 with 2 AP - S4 attacks

pretty damned close.

 Argive wrote:
Well... The codex creep is going to be insane this time around..

So they valued an extra wound at 3 pts for a T4 3+ model with stacks and stacks of rules? Fantastic...

Who knows what other changes they have in store for the Space Marines in the new Codex. A convenient thing about giving models Angels of Death rather than all the rules it encompasses is that they can overhaul the rules that Angels of Death encompasses without needing to change data sheets.

Could just be wishful thinking on my part, but time will tell.

So, now you can just... use whatever Space Marines you want and equip them with whatever weapons you like- Devastators, tacticals, assault, whatever. As of right now, all Space Marines are valid and you can use your old ones, or the new ones.

...and yet, somehow people are still crying about this.

As of right now Space Marine kitbashing just got on a whole new level and the very people that use them are upset over it.

Shine on, shiny diamonds.

(Also: I told you this was gonna happen. You can go back and have a look, if you like).

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
So, now you can just... use whatever Space Marines you want and equip them with whatever weapons you like- Devastators, tacticals, assault, whatever. As of right now, all Space Marines are valid and you can use your old ones, or the new ones.

...and yet, somehow people are still crying about this.

As of right now Space Marine kitbashing just got on a whole new level and the very people that use them are upset over it.

Shine on, shiny diamonds.

(Also: I told you this was gonna happen. You can go back and have a look, if you like).

I’m mad keen. I’m making Primaris Vanguard Veterans and Death Company with Jump Packs. Delicious!

 Tiberius501 wrote:
I’m mad keen. I’m making Primaris Vanguard Veterans and Death Company with Jump Packs. Delicious!

Oh, you have no idea.

...there's a lot of untouched fun toys on the Deathwatch sprues, y'know....

Where are people seeing that Boltguns are 30" range now? I didnt see it in the article.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Where are people seeing that Boltguns are 30" range now? I didnt see it in the article.

Command Squad instruction booklet has a rules section, and shows 30" for the range of the Bolter.

Could it be a typo? Sure. The new Redemptor Fist rules means it heals your opponents rather than damages, and that's probably a typo, but it might be true so we might really have 30" bolters.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
So, now you can just... use whatever Space Marines you want and equip them with whatever weapons you like- Devastators, tacticals, assault, whatever. As of right now, all Space Marines are valid and you can use your old ones, or the new ones.

...and yet, somehow people are still crying about this.

As of right now Space Marine kitbashing just got on a whole new level and the very people that use them are upset over it.

Shine on, shiny diamonds.

(Also: I told you this was gonna happen. You can go back and have a look, if you like).

That's a bastardization of Primaris. Call me a purist if you want. They won't have the keyword. They won't have the synergies. They will be glorified proxies. Many people is happy with that, I'm not.

I think the rules team has been watching too much Astartes recently.

This is bonkers level of sweeping changes. Doesn't this invalidate the Munitorium manual of the new Chapter Approved - which came out just last week - on top of everything else?

DanielFM wrote:
That's a bastardization of Primaris. Call me a purist if you want. They won't have the keyword. They won't have the synergies. They will be glorified proxies. Many people is happy with that, I'm not.

Good.

 Stormonu wrote:
This is bonkers level of sweeping changes. Doesn't this invalidate the Munitorium manual of the new Chapter Approved - which came out just last week - on top of everything else?

Yeah, that's... kind of annoying, actually. But they damned sure did make sure you know about that new App (that costs a monthly fee).

Anyway, as far as changes go, this is what I see:

-Space Marines get another wound.
-All weapons across the board are getting buffed

I think you may have pointed out the only real problem- the fact that I wasted money on the field manual. It'd be nice if the area was big enough to write the updated points next to it.

 Togusa wrote:
I wish I could find the comment I made a month ago about Deathmarks, in which I got dog piled for suggesting they will get buffed.

Well T4 wasn't exactly their biggest issue and new gun is really a sidestep. Damage output it loses vs old gun vs T4 3+, T8 3+ and obviously anything with T3 or 4+ or less winning vs 2+ armour(by 0.1 damage more for 10 deathmarks...). So it's more of sidestep changing unit role from deep striking and appearing to objective or near other deep strikers to sit at backfield but damage output is still bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:
I think the rules team has been watching too much Astartes recently.

This is bonkers level of sweeping changes. Doesn't this invalidate the Munitorium manual of the new Chapter Approved - which came out just last week - on top of everything else?

For space marines yes. For rest of imperium for weapons maybe if they change point costs as well. For rest no.

And the CA points were always going to be overwritten by new codexes. You can't have all points only in CA and not in codexes after CA. If you do that the point costs in CA will be under/over costed until codex comes.

 Stormonu wrote:
This is bonkers level of sweeping changes. Doesn't this invalidate the Munitorium manual of the new Chapter Approved - which came out just last week - on top of everything else?

Naturally. This is why so many of us keep saying: Don't buy GW's printed material.

Some interesting changes here. Also +3 dmg on the fist is obviously an error, but flat 3 dmg seems pretty nice.

Hmm, so Storm Bolter still has got 24" range. Maybe Firstborn aren't really getting +6" to range on their Bolters, and that weapon we've seen is some special variant?

Or maybe GW are introducing range changes between different variants and Storm Bolters simply don't get the extension

tneva82 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I wish I could find the comment I made a month ago about Deathmarks, in which I got dog piled for suggesting they will get buffed.

Well T4 wasn't exactly their biggest issue and new gun is really a sidestep. Damage output it loses vs old gun vs T4 3+, T8 3+ and obviously anything with T3 or 4+ or less winning vs 2+ armour(by 0.1 damage more for 10 deathmarks...). So it's more of sidestep changing unit role from deep striking and appearing to objective or near other deep strikers to sit at backfield but damage output is still bad.

10 Deathmarks kill a Primaris character on average, I'd hardly call that bad output. In fact outside RG eliminators in tactical doctrine, I can't think of any better snipers.

And the switch in role makes them more viable as they can actually get more than one turn of shooting off. Sit them in cover on your back field and they're a pain to shift. Assuming they'll get a pts bump, but at the moment, for 16ppm, their a steal.

 SarisKhan wrote:
Hmm, so Storm Bolter still has got 24" range. Maybe Firstborn aren't really getting +6" to range on their Bolters, and that weapon we've seen is some special variant?

Or maybe GW are introducing range changes between different variants and Storm Bolters simply don't get the extension

could be. I seem to recall stormbolters having inferior range to bolters in some other sources (the space marine video game comes to mind) I mean it makes sense. you're literally doubling the barrels and thus the recoil. a stormbolter isn't going to be quite as reliable a marksmans weapon.

that said the heavy flamer also only has a range of 8, so I'm wondering if there are just errors on this sheet

Stormbolters on terminators also stayed at 24" range.

I like seeing the change to wounds on Marines. If they now fix transport segregation we're well on the way to leaving this Primaris nonsense behind and just have Marines again.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
This is bonkers level of sweeping changes. Doesn't this invalidate the Munitorium manual of the new Chapter Approved - which came out just last week - on top of everything else?

Naturally. This is why so many of us keep saying: Don't buy GW's printed material.

I'd go a little further than that: don't pay for errata.

 Geifer wrote:
I like seeing the change to wounds on Marines. If they now fix transport segregation we're well on the way to leaving this Primaris nonsense behind and just have Marines again.

Give Primaris access to Drop Pods and I won't care about anything else. Ever

 Geifer wrote:
I like seeing the change to wounds on Marines. If they now fix transport segregation we're well on the way to leaving this Primaris nonsense behind and just have Marines again.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
This is bonkers level of sweeping changes. Doesn't this invalidate the Munitorium manual of the new Chapter Approved - which came out just last week - on top of everything else?

Naturally. This is why so many of us keep saying: Don't buy GW's printed material.

I'd go a little further than that: don't pay for errata.

Did people really buy the bundle for the points manual? Personally I just saw that tacked on to the tournament pack, which is almost a necessity since it has the rules in a far less bulky package then the monstrous (but glorious) rule book.

Love the typical quality assurance GW puts into these throw-away quick datasheets.

I'm betting the 30" range for the SM bolter is a cut & paste error and should be 24" (unless it turns out to be a Stalker).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
I like seeing the change to wounds on Marines. If they now fix transport segregation we're well on the way to leaving this Primaris nonsense behind and just have Marines again.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
This is bonkers level of sweeping changes. Doesn't this invalidate the Munitorium manual of the new Chapter Approved - which came out just last week - on top of everything else?

Naturally. This is why so many of us keep saying: Don't buy GW's printed material.

I'd go a little further than that: don't pay for errata.

Did people really buy the bundle for the points manual? Personally I just saw that tacked on to the tournament pack, which is almost a necessity since it has the rules in a far less bulky package then the monstrous (but glorious) rule book.

I'm sure some did. It's not like your getting a heap of pages for free so I would have been very annoyed for it to be binnable less than a week after I got it.