Necron and Space Marine Codex and upcoming releases discussion

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**necrontyrOG**

tneva82 wrote:
Heavy weapon for deep strike assasins. Lol. Better get something really good as well. 5 man squads to ds into objectives was only thing good at

They went up to BS2 though, so will still be hitting on 3's the turn they come in, then out to 36" on 2's after that. Not bad really. Also better strength and AP on their guns.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Sasori wrote:
Immortals to T5, and Gauss Blasters now 30' Rapidfire.

Still 1HP, so still less durable than marines :(.

**tneva82**

Sasori wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Heavy weapon for deep strike assasins. Lol. Better get something really good as well. 5 man squads to ds into objectives was only thing good at

At BS2 they are firing at their old hit rate anyway if they deepstrike. They also got a T bonus, and the weapon is much better.

They got buffed for sure, I'm curious to see their special rules.

Much better? 2 shots better than 1. Rarely you don't　have target nearby anyway. Mortal output halved, less shots means also less rolls to be made. You get s5 vs t4 bonus vs 3+ for half the mortals.

**changemod**

DanielFM wrote:
changemod wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
So nabbed off reddit:

https://imgur.com/gallery/dTdr1Pn

Some real questions there, 30" boltguns for classic marines?

Largely flattening out the differences with primaris is a positive, given that their rules had been reflecting a much larger difference than their lore described. (Initially, if you assumed a naked marine and a naked primaris, then 2 wounds and 2 attacks literally doubled the impact one would have. The lack of double the firepower and existence of multi-wounding weapons were the only counter-factors.)

My one caveat is that if tacs are two wound, so should be many traditionally "marine equivalent" units other armies have. Using the other army they're boxed with as an example, they seem to be continuing a trend of devaluing Necron Warriors into zombie hordes so if they're relatively cheap 1 wound models that's one thing, but Immortals should absolutely be two wound if marines are. They used to be T5!

Yeah,so positive it makes fluff into nonsense.
"Hey Guiliman, I spent 10000 years improving Space Marines and their equipment! War is changed forever!"
"Yeah? Tell me the groundbreaking advances!"
"Ermmm... Primaris are huge, but no more tough than before. They also strike a bit faster. And their bigger and better guns are actually the same. But pierce armour a bit better.
Why do you say nothing, Guiliman? Are you overwhelmed?"

In the fluff their genetic expression is not very large on the scale of granularity the tabletop represents though, is the thing. The new equipment is the much larger deal, except in that tampering with marine genetics could be interpreted as heretical from a religious standpoint.

**Red Corsair**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Sasori wrote:
Immortals to T5, and Gauss Blasters now 30' Rapidfire.

Still 1HP, so still less durable than marines :(.

They stand back up though. 2 wounds and T5 would have been insane.

**Geifer**

What's with all the range increases in an edition that shrinks board size?

It's also quite odd to see translated unit names again (different from what they used to be, too). GW got rid of them after Chapterhouse and I did not expect to see that again. Really, I'm still not expecting threm to make it back to the unit entries in the codex. Very confusing.

**changemod**

Geifer wrote:
What's with all the range increases in an edition that shrinks board size?

Because even unintentionally, they've started a very intense campaign of devaluing melee further.

**Red Corsair**

tneva82 wrote:
Sasori wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Heavy weapon for deep strike assasins. Lol. Better get something really good as well. 5 man squads to ds into objectives was only thing good at

At BS2 they are firing at their old hit rate anyway if they deepstrike. They also got a T bonus, and the weapon is much better.

They got buffed for sure, I'm curious to see their special rules.

Much better? 2 shots better than 1. Rarely you don't　have target nearby anyway. Mortal output halved, less shots means also less rolls to be made. You get s5 vs t4 bonus vs 3+ for half the mortals.

The 2 shots were absolute garbage. Its a total red heron argument. Now when they intercept they will actually wreck the unit they were interrupting. That strength 5 and -2 is a very big deal and honestly I am glad they are 36" range now. You can always just deploy them near a lord and enjoy sniping for once with rerolls to wound to boot.

**tneva82**

Red Corsair wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Sasori wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Heavy weapon for deep strike assasins. Lol. Better get something really good as well. 5 man squads to ds into objectives was only thing good at

At BS2 they are firing at their old hit rate anyway if they deepstrike. They also got a T bonus, and the weapon is much better.

They got buffed for sure, I'm curious to see their special rules.

Much better? 2 shots better than 1. Rarely you don't　have target nearby anyway. Mortal output halved, less shots means also less rolls to be made. You get s5 vs t4 bonus vs 3+ for half the mortals.

The 2 shots were absolute garbage. Its a total red heron argument. Now when they intercept they will actually wreck the unit they were interrupting. That strength 5 and -2 is a very big deal and honestly I am glad they are 36" range now. You can always just deploy them near a lord and enjoy sniping for once with rerolls to wound to boot.

You realize right vs 3+ double shot is equal to -2? That -2 is better only vs 2+ armour? So s5 vs s4 vs half the mortals. I doubt s5 vs t4 is worth that much. actually math shows old stat is better vs t4 3+. ...

So much for wrecking target. Ps vs sob and anything with 4+ or less old is better

Maybe check math in future

well still end result is damage is junk either way as this isn't improvement　but side step so still just 5 to land to unguarded objective if you really want to use them

**changemod**

Those deathmarks are much better at traditional sniping, but will need some interesting special rule wrangling if they’re to keep their old lore as ambushers pulling the space robot equivalent to a drive by assassination with an assault rifle.

**Red Corsair**

tneva82 wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Sasori wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Heavy weapon for deep strike assasins. Lol. Better get something really good as well. 5 man squads to ds into objectives was only thing good at

At BS2 they are firing at their old hit rate anyway if they deepstrike. They also got a T bonus, and the weapon is much better.

They got buffed for sure, I'm curious to see their special rules.

Much better? 2 shots better than 1. Rarely you don't　have target nearby anyway. Mortal output halved, less shots means also less rolls to be made. You get s5 vs t4 bonus vs 3+ for half the mortals.

The 2 shots were absolute garbage. Its a total red heron argument. Now when they intercept they will actually wreck the unit they were interrupting. That strength 5 and -2 is a very big deal and honestly I am glad they are 36" range now. You can always just deploy them near a lord and enjoy sniping for once with rerolls to wound to boot.

You realize right vs 3+ double shot is equal to -2? That -2 is better only vs 2+ armour? So s5 vs s4 vs half the mortals. I doubt s5 vs t4 is worth that much. actually math shows old stat is better vs t4 3+. ...

So much for wrecking target. Ps vs sob and anything with 4+ or less old is better

Maybe check math in future well still end result is damage is junk either way as this isn't improvement　but side step so still just 5 to land to unguarded objective if you really want to use them

Maybe don't lean on pure math hammer to "win" your arguments. Death marks didn't do crap before and a massive issue they had was the lack of range strength and AP. Again, your acting as though these things were always guarenteed landing every model within 12" of their target.

If you were doing that in 8th let alone 9th where DS is MUCH harder, I'd suggest you stop clubbing seals.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

changemod wrote:
Those deathmarks are much better at traditional sniping, but will need some interesting special rule wrangling if they’re to keep their old lore as ambushers pulling the space robot equivalent to a drive by assassination with an assault rifle.

Which I am sure they will get. Along with some bonkers stratagem no doubt. Which is what makes Tneva defending the old garbage profile all the more comical. I mean, suddenly the old version is good?

What a jokester.

**Daedalus81**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't really buy the only "veterans get +1 wound". They're wearing the same armor. Being more experienced usually doesn't make you twice as tough.
Then why do Marine characters have more than W1?

Well, they're characters. I suppose it could be conceivable that tacs are like aspects where the Sarge gets W2.

**Latro_**

hmm table top tactics said something interesting (they were codex play testers) when 9th came out. They seemed to know other big things happening but kept very quiet about what theyknew.

Perhaps light infantry isnt actually as done for as we think.

Seems to me what GW look to be doing is buffing the hell out of eliter infantry and i can guarantee it'll come with a pts cost.

A grot or cultist by being a model carries a certain value so by moving elite stuff up a notch in punch and pts it frees up the 0-20pt range for lighter infantry.

if i'm making any sense? e.g. currently at the 0-20pt level there inst enough variance in points (20 levels) to encompass the nuance and abilities present in all units.

**Sasori**

tneva82 wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Sasori wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Heavy weapon for deep strike assasins. Lol. Better get something really good as well. 5 man squads to ds into objectives was only thing good at

At BS2 they are firing at their old hit rate anyway if they deepstrike. They also got a T bonus, and the weapon is much better.

They got buffed for sure, I'm curious to see their special rules.

Much better? 2 shots better than 1. Rarely you don't　have target nearby anyway. Mortal output halved, less shots means also less rolls to be made. You get s5 vs t4 bonus vs 3+ for half the mortals.

The 2 shots were absolute garbage. Its a total red heron argument. Now when they intercept they will actually wreck the unit they were interrupting. That strength 5 and -2 is a very big deal and honestly I am glad they are 36" range now. You can always just deploy them near a lord and enjoy sniping for once with rerolls to wound to boot.

You realize right vs 3+ double shot is equal to -2? That -2 is better only vs 2+ armour? So s5 vs s4 vs half the mortals. I doubt s5 vs t4 is worth that much. actually math shows old stat is better vs t4 3+. ...

So much for wrecking target. Ps vs sob and anything with 4+ or less old is better

Maybe check math in future well still end result is damage is junk either way as this isn't improvement　but side step so still just 5 to land to unguarded objective if you really want to use them

The issue being you had to get them within 12' range for the double shots, now you don't. Ap 0 to Ap -2 is also a fairly large difference as well. I haven't run the math yet myself, and while I believe that the old version might edge out better vs T4 with doubletap, The new Weapon is going to be better against T5 and with Gravis armour being more popular, is a pretty big deal.

Additionally, you now have options. You can set them up in a traditional sniper role, or deepstrike them against their new target, but farther away so you don't risk them immediately getting blown up after they show up.

All of those factors to me makes the new weapon substantially better.

**Slayer-Fan123**

tneva82 wrote:
Hmmm true. Though 1 less shot often so firepower still reduced.

Not really. The moment you wanted to shoot something more, you're in range to die or weren't able to shoot twice. Mortal Wound output will be less but overall stronger basic attacks will prevail. I'll take the current profile over the last one any day.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though D1 is kinda lame but whatever.

**Daedalus81**

tneva82 wrote:
Sasori wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Heavy weapon for deep strike assasins. Lol. Better get something really good as well. 5 man squads to ds into objectives was only thing good at

At BS2 they are firing at their old hit rate anyway if they deepstrike. They also got a T bonus, and the weapon is much better.

They got buffed for sure, I'm curious to see their special rules.

Much better? 2 shots better than 1. Rarely you don't　have target nearby anyway. Mortal output halved, less shots means also less rolls to be made. You get s5 vs t4 bonus vs 3+ for half the mortals.

vs MEQ --

new
5 * .833 * .167 = 0.7 MW
5 * .833 * .666 * .666 = 1.85

old
10 * .666 * .167 = 1.1 MW
10 * .666 * .5 * .333 = 1.1

2.6 versus 2.2 -- if they move the numbers are about equal. But all this required they be w/i 12" of the target and now they can be 36", which is preferable. Their special rule might change as a result, too.

**Marshal Loss**

2 wounds for ALL marines confirmed. Tactical Marines 18 points. CSM getting it as well.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/08/13/new-boxes-new-rules-new-codexes/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=40K&utm_content=40knewrules13082020&fbclid=IwAR2705yWcqEMkAn79qdeQXtles4lpjUh3Hu6UmX5tdS3sPTHPCeklt2sxAg

**Tyel**

They went and did it the absolute madmen.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway on Deathmarks - I think the unit is probably better now, but its essentially going "yeah, always was a crap sniper, still going to be a crap sniper, now really a positional piece combining deep strike, intercept and a very long range".

Mathhammer is kind of meh - for claiming objectives (and tickling a wounded character/unit) it could be quite useful.

**Crimson**

Well, that's a game changer.

**The Phazer**

Am I reading that right that Guard effectively get a fairly significant free buff when the Marine codex comes out? They get the weapons improvement but their points won't be adjusted until their codex comes up.

Meanwhile Xenos armies kinda get hosed tbh.

**bullyboy**

Yeah...Xenos wait until their codexes come out......oh that is going to sting

**oni**

SOoo... That BA terminator model in the WarCom article looks new.

**Marshal Loss**

oni wrote:
SOoo... That BA terminator model in the WarCom article looks new.

From the SM Heroes box, not new

**Platuan4th**

oni wrote:
SOoo... That BA terminator model in the WarCom article looks new.

It's one of the Space Marine Heroes Series 2 ones, not new.

**Dudeface**

It marched my expectations but still left me wanting sadly. Nice that all instance of same name weaponry gets updated day 1, shame about everyone else needing a dex. Likewise waiting on a new codex for the extra wounds for chaos seems a bit of a cop out.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually it only mentions fully fledged astartes so 1 wound scouts?

**Albertorius**

DanielFM wrote:
changemod wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
So nabbed off reddit:

https://imgur.com/gallery/dTdr1Pn

Some real questions there, 30" boltguns for classic marines?

Largely flattening out the differences with primaris is a positive, given that their rules had been reflecting a much larger difference than their lore described. (Initially, if you assumed a naked marine and a naked primaris, then 2 wounds and 2 attacks literally doubled the impact one would have. The lack of double the firepower and existence of multi-wounding weapons were the only counter-factors.)

My one caveat is that if tacs are two wound, so should be many traditionally "marine equivalent" units other armies have. Using the other army they're boxed with as an example, they seem to be continuing a trend of devaluing Necron Warriors into zombie hordes so if they're relatively cheap 1 wound models that's one thing, but Immortals should absolutely be two wound if marines are. They used to be T5!

Yeah,so positive it makes fluff into nonsense.
"Hey Guiliman, I spent 10000 years improving Space Marines and their equipment! War is changed forever!"
"Yeah? Tell me the groundbreaking advances!"
"Ermmm... Primaris are huge, but no more tough than before. They also strike a bit faster. And their bigger and better guns are actually the same. But pierce armour a bit better.
Why do you say nothing, Guiliman? Are you overwhelmed?"

Honestly, if the only answer to that question is "They're much easier to mass produce and much less affected by corruptions of the geneseed" it would have been and incredibly game changing advance, without needing any kind of statline modification.

**The Phazer**

DanielFM wrote:
Yeah,so positive it makes fluff into nonsense.
"Hey Guiliman, I spent 10000 years improving Space Marines and their equipment! War is changed forever!"
"Yeah? Tell me the groundbreaking advances!"
"Ermmm... Primaris are huge, but no more tough than before. They also strike a bit faster. And their bigger and better guns are actually the same. But pierce armour a bit better.
Why do you say nothing, Guiliman? Are you overwhelmed?"

Meh, the rules always have to be heavily abstracted, and the reality is that a Primaris Marine is good but certainly a regular marine is much closer to a Primaris Marine than they are a regular human, and the rules didn't really used to reflect that. Now they do.

**DanielFM**

So being Primaris no longer means anything. Thanks GW

**bullyboy**

DanielFM wrote:
So being Primaris no longer means anything. Thanks GW

It means +1 attack and a better gun

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

Note the change only happens with a new codex

The Future is Bright***

These new rules and points will come into effect officially, as new codexes are released. The first two codexes will be with us in October (along with loads of new miniatures) and we’ll be taking a closer look at them and what to expect from next month.

so while the beloved Deathguard of the Grandfather will get the useful extra wound (along with all those foolish followers of the other less helpful chaos gods) eventually there's going to be a considerable chunk of time where Loyalist marines will just be even better (as opposed to just better)