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Made in us
Widowmaker





Should Riot Quest be Discontinued? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvZCv0lLoVw

You see the title, you have the link, listen and discuss.

 
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman




Illinois

marxlives wrote:
Should Riot Quest be Discontinued? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvZCv0lLoVw

You see the title, you have the link, listen and discuss.


Yes, but this video should live forever

https://youtu.be/8kqrkYSHQVw
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 Kommisar wrote:
marxlives wrote:
Should Riot Quest be Discontinued? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvZCv0lLoVw

You see the title, you have the link, listen and discuss.


Yes, but this video should live forever

https://youtu.be/8kqrkYSHQVw
I had heard the legends, but wow that trailer exceeded my worst expectations of awful.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Come check out the newest release in the Line of Sight family of Alternative Warmachine formats - Diplomachine! Diplomachine offers a way for players to scratch the “grand strategy” itch missing from Warmachine and Hordes by taking over the entirety of the Iron Kingdoms in a series of turns where games of Brawlmachine are the deciding factor! Four or more players battle it out for the throne of the entire continent, come check out the 1.0 rules here!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine/2021/7/29/diplomachine-10
   
Made in us
Destructive Daemon Prince





Albany, NY

In recent Trying to Give Money to PP + Support My LGS news, I called up my local shop to have them order me some stuff I apparently need to play Mk3 now (spoiler: 2x archons + 1x riot quest solo), and was told that PP's order minimum for retailers is $600, or at least it is for whatever tier my store is. Dude was apologetic and lamented that this also means he can't order his own stuff either until local players decide it's worth waiting instead of going to MM or PP itself ...

But anyway, I'm gearing up to play some Brawlmachine soon, plus dragged my eternally WIP Cryx out of storage! Unexpected WMH developments!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/02 22:11:30


KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Is that from PP direct of the distributor? I would think that would be more a distributor capping things like that as PP would have no reason to put a cap like that in place.

I know that distributors are weary of PP right now and its messing with PP's ability to get things into local retailers through that network. PP might well need to find more affordable ways to direct mail content to retailers but that might well not be practical at this point in time with the global postage issues.

A Blog in Miniature

The Swarm Arises

Do you ever notice, sometimes, there's an extra post? 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





From what my store has told me ordering direct from PP the minimum order is $350 their cost. So roughly $600 retail.

They can order less but they don't receive the same discount and are charged shipping.

I did have them look up a primal archon for me and not a single distributor they deal with had one. So they are still screwing the retailers. Half the point of ordering from a third party distributor is because you can roll in small orders from multiple companies.

I want to give them money but they make it difficult.
   
Made in no
Umber Guard






 Overread wrote:

I know that distributors are weary of PP right now and its messing with PP's ability to get things into local retailers through that network. PP might well need to find more affordable ways to direct mail content to retailers but that might well not be practical at this point in time with the global postage issues.


Distributors are going down right and left these days and have been for 2-3 years. Mainly because the big miniature companies (GW and Asmodee) have set up their own distribution system (in many cases buying up existing distributors and throwing all other product out of those lines) and boardgames have given all of their profits to Kickstarter for the last decade or so. PP kickstarting stuff is not helping, but they are hardly the only small to medium miniature company doing this, and at the very least they have excellent retailer discounts on their KS even if KS eats up a bit of the retailer's profit. This has led to distributors cutting back on warehouse space and PP's SKU bloat was not well suited to that model.

I think PP need to get better at direct distribution to stores as a result, or use stores as distributors and give them better discounts and/or free shipping (especially internationally) but right now, there are severe issues everywhere. I don't think GW's trouble getting enough boxes out there for people is intentional, neither do I think Asmodee (i.e. Atomic Mass) really WANT to be unable to send our LGS anything except the latest releases for MCP and Legion (they stopped answering emails about old product some time ago, apparently).
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




This is what I have been told by some store owners in the UK. I travel around for work and try to go to FLGS in town, if nothing else to just kill some time. I have been traveling again recently and this is what I have been told by some store owners both now and before the pandemic. How true it is, I can’t gauge but iv been told similar things by several stores when talking about PP. But if im wrong and the store owners are wrong..... then im wrong :-)

1) Many store owners genuinely don’t want anything to do with PP since the botched MK3 launch and the other bridges that were burnt around that time with B&M stores. Some are not even aware that PP is still going. “poor dead company that doesn’t sell enough to justify my shelf space”. “is the company still in business…..?” "havent heard of that game in years...."

2) The remaining distro to the UK does not prioritise PP stock. This means that stores who order through them often have to wait until there are enough orders nationally before they will be forfilled. This means you either have to wait ages or stores just don’t bother.

3) This means getting the newest hotness in time and releases can be slow. There are only so many WM/H players in the UK and those numbers are not growing Once the community has what they need, nobody buys any more. So unless you can get it quick, there is no point and the die hard fans will just order direct

4) Stores can set up a direct link with PP outside of standard distro. One or two big B&M/webstores have done so. However for this to be worth for the store so they need to almost guarantee turnover. Which means that they have to prioritise new items over old items. Most old items can be picked up on the 2nd hard market for tuppence, so stores don’t bother.

5) Community just isn’t big enough in the UK or open enough for most stores to invest time in. Better off investing in other game systems like infinity, malifaux, MCP etc as these all have a good customer base and no issues/stress getting stock and the stock shifts regularly.


   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

And that's why they need their PG or similar scheme working again. PP's biggest issue right now is growing their actual market. If they can't grow they can't secure new and better ways to work with retailers and such

A Blog in Miniature

The Swarm Arises

Do you ever notice, sometimes, there's an extra post? 
   
Made in no
Umber Guard






A reinstatement of something PG-ish would be a good idea, yes. While everyone and their grandmother dropped such programs when the MTG litigation case appeared, the fears do no appear to have been justified. And it is fully possible to grow PP games locally. With more support it would be easier.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
A reinstatement of something PG-ish would be a good idea, yes. While everyone and their grandmother dropped such programs when the MTG litigation case appeared, the fears do no appear to have been justified. And it is fully possible to grow PP games locally. With more support it would be easier.


Things is most/many games companies didn't. Wyrd/Malifaux still has theirs. I believe Infinity has one. Moonstone has one (my friend is part of it). And so on. I don't know the in and out of what they entail, if they get rewards or if its just a formally recognised volunteer. But again, if similar sized companies can do it successfully, why not PP

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/03 11:05:16


 
   
Made in gb
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot



Wrexham, North Wales

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
A reinstatement of something PG-ish would be a good idea, yes. While everyone and their grandmother dropped such programs when the MTG litigation case appeared, the fears do no appear to have been justified. And it is fully possible to grow PP games locally. With more support it would be easier.


It might be too late. Is a new Press Ganger going to have much joy in a store that doesn't stock WM/H? Is a store going to reinvest in WM/H again just because a bright-eyed PG rocks up and promises to demo? As a small town game shop owner in the UK, I'm in the 'no' camp.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I mean in the end PG's had to start out with PP being small and not well established early on. It's just PP lost their market hold and has to start all over again. It would certainly at least help secure their fanbase where they've already got support and perhaps grow things there.

If nothing else at least shore up what they've got; work on getting stuff into the hands of more retailers and then use the PG to help maximise impact in those areas.

On its own it won't help,, but its an almost essential tool for a company that doesn't have their own retailers with employees doing that job for them.

A Blog in Miniature

The Swarm Arises

Do you ever notice, sometimes, there's an extra post? 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




MarkNorfolk wrote:
Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
A reinstatement of something PG-ish would be a good idea, yes. While everyone and their grandmother dropped such programs when the MTG litigation case appeared, the fears do no appear to have been justified. And it is fully possible to grow PP games locally. With more support it would be easier.


It might be too late. Is a new Press Ganger going to have much joy in a store that doesn't stock WM/H? Is a store going to reinvest in WM/H again just because a bright-eyed PG rocks up and promises to demo? As a small town game shop owner in the UK, I'm in the 'no' camp.


Out of interest, what would it take for you as a FLGS in the UK to stock PP stuff again? Do you see a way back for the company from a retail PoV and given all the other games on offer?
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

 Overread wrote:
I mean in the end PG's had to start out with PP being small and not well established early on. It's just PP lost their market hold and has to start all over again. It would certainly at least help secure their fanbase where they've already got support and perhaps grow things there.

If nothing else at least shore up what they've got; work on getting stuff into the hands of more retailers and then use the PG to help maximise impact in those areas.

On its own it won't help,, but its an almost essential tool for a company that doesn't have their own retailers with employees doing that job for them.

It won't help much if the LGS won't stock them because of their predatory selling habits.

I talked to the owners of a new LGS here and they won't touch PP stuff because they would buy something to sell, then watch PP price them out on their online store. That makes it much harder for them to sell it.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

In theory if PP gets their act together they won't have to keep doing those big discount boxed sets to clear inventory

A Blog in Miniature

The Swarm Arises

Do you ever notice, sometimes, there's an extra post? 
   
Made in gb
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot



Wrexham, North Wales

Sunno wrote:
MarkNorfolk wrote:
Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
A reinstatement of something PG-ish would be a good idea, yes. While everyone and their grandmother dropped such programs when the MTG litigation case appeared, the fears do no appear to have been justified. And it is fully possible to grow PP games locally. With more support it would be easier.


It might be too late. Is a new Press Ganger going to have much joy in a store that doesn't stock WM/H? Is a store going to reinvest in WM/H again just because a bright-eyed PG rocks up and promises to demo? As a small town game shop owner in the UK, I'm in the 'no' camp.


Out of interest, what would it take for you as a FLGS in the UK to stock PP stuff again? Do you see a way back for the company from a retail PoV and given all the other games on offer?


Something amazing I guess. How can they tempt me into stocking it again? Stonking new sculpts and complete relaunch? Basically starting afresh? With really cheap starters to act as loss leaders? A return to small armies and a focus on friendly play? A license to use a baseball bat on anyone who invokes 'Page 5'? A pledge that they'll stop using Kickstarter? There's too many stages between me an PP so 'Sale or Return' isn't going to work. And what do I drop to make way for WM/H? Marvel Crisis Protocol? Star Wars Legion? My D&D stock?

It's too late. The state of the game, the player base, the company - Warmachine/Hordes (second-rate games don't deserve capitals) is dead. It just doesn't know it yet.

I've got a nice little thing going with Monsterpocalypse though. :-)
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Pyre Troll






 Overread wrote:
In theory if PP gets their act together they won't have to keep doing those big discount boxed sets to clear inventory

a lot of what i've seen from the last big box sale felt like them clearing stuff they plan on maybe changing materials on or something, plus a bunch of the plushies and pins

given how decent their resin has become, seeing that used for starter boxes instead of the less then great sorta plastic the 3rd ed ones are in would be nice
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




MarkNorfolk wrote:
Sunno wrote:
MarkNorfolk wrote:
Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
A reinstatement of something PG-ish would be a good idea, yes. While everyone and their grandmother dropped such programs when the MTG litigation case appeared, the fears do no appear to have been justified. And it is fully possible to grow PP games locally. With more support it would be easier.


It might be too late. Is a new Press Ganger going to have much joy in a store that doesn't stock WM/H? Is a store going to reinvest in WM/H again just because a bright-eyed PG rocks up and promises to demo? As a small town game shop owner in the UK, I'm in the 'no' camp.


Out of interest, what would it take for you as a FLGS in the UK to stock PP stuff again? Do you see a way back for the company from a retail PoV and given all the other games on offer?


Something amazing I guess. How can they tempt me into stocking it again? Stonking new sculpts and complete relaunch? Basically starting afresh? With really cheap starters to act as loss leaders? A return to small armies and a focus on friendly play? A license to use a baseball bat on anyone who invokes 'Page 5'? A pledge that they'll stop using Kickstarter? There's too many stages between me an PP so 'Sale or Return' isn't going to work. And what do I drop to make way for WM/H? Marvel Crisis Protocol? Star Wars Legion? My D&D stock?

It's too late. The state of the game, the player base, the company - Warmachine/Hordes (second-rate games don't deserve capitals) is dead. It just doesn't know it yet.

I've got a nice little thing going with Monsterpocalypse though. :-)


Thats pretty grim reading but expected from my POV.

Again a question, you must talk to other store owners right? Not like a secret masonic get together but you must know each other or at least those in you area or county? Is the feedback I hear and your response "the norm" when it comes to PP? Do you hear anything positive about the company and game for others? Is there any hype or interest in their other products like RQ, Warcaster and MonPoc? Or is it all viewed as one entity? Just curious.
   
Made in us
Widowmaker





The current miniature environment now is the same space as Battetech is in. And just like Battletech, the game is NOT dead and they are still selling product and there is alot of community involvement.

https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine

What it does mean is that the PP, community, and FLGS need to change.

PP needs to re-evaluate its online store policy. With permenant inflation hitting and predicated not stop hitting and wages not catching up, I would be surprised to see much of a hobby scene period except for vets with a huge back stock of models playing. PP needs to allow online markets to buy existing stock in volume and sell. Those old days 25% discounts out of some dudes garage may move from "predatory" to necessity.

Community needs to realize that days of buying a miniature game that is not GW, WoTC, and Asmodee are pretty much over. Buy your miniatures online, and support your local game store by buying venue food, hobby supplies/accessories, and terrain. This goes for all of it PP, Wyrd, CB, Mantic, etc. (something Battletech community has been doing forever)

FLGS stores need to understand, we are not going to be force feed into a game we have not interest in playing. While it is easier to get people into GW, WoTC, Asmodee for them, not one game is suitable for everybody.

If the entire industry went up in flames and 40k and AoS were the only ones left standing. Plenty of people from every other game would just put up our toys and play video games. People who play other games and settings are not doing it because they hate 40k and AoS. The setting/aethestic/ruleset is just not for them.

Especially with the current and worsening economic condition (at least here in America) FLGS stores may need to be okay with players who buy games from cheaper online warehouses put come in and support the store through other purchases.



 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

marxlives wrote:

Especially with the current and worsening economic condition (at least here in America) FLGS stores may need to be okay with players who buy games from cheaper online warehouses put come in and support the store through other purchases.




Most stores are ok so long as they've some system for getting some profit from those customers. Eg pay to play tables; food outlets or otherwise. Sure more gamers means more games for existing customers, but this isn't the MOBA market where you're dealing with hundreds/thousands of customers coming through your door. Local real world stores can't afford to have too many free-loaders. OF course its on the store to find those other revenue streams, food is a popular one, but so too are cheaper accessories and such. Small temptations.

A Blog in Miniature

The Swarm Arises

Do you ever notice, sometimes, there's an extra post? 
   
Made in gb
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot



Wrexham, North Wales

Sure, shops talk to each other, but if there is a PP circle, I'm not part of it. I'm sure some of them must have a WM/H group...

...but I don't. I don't force any game on anyone. I support and sell what my customers want. And right now nobody wants WM/H.

If some people came in wanting to play then sure. I have 4x4 playmats, objective markers and scenery. If they want to order stock in I have a supplier. But there is nobody.
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

 Overread wrote:
Most stores are ok so long as they've some system for getting some profit from those customers. Eg pay to play tables; food outlets or otherwise. Sure more gamers means more games for existing customers, but this isn't the MOBA market where you're dealing with hundreds/thousands of customers coming through your door. Local real world stores can't afford to have too many free-loaders. OF course its on the store to find those other revenue streams, food is a popular one, but so too are cheaper accessories and such. Small temptations.

We have a place here in the Phoenix Valley that I don't think is a store (too far away for a drop-by visit), but they do have a liquor license. It is one of the more common meeting spots for WarmaHordes right now, at least so long as the government doesn't shut it down again.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in no
Umber Guard






MarkNorfolk wrote:
Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
A reinstatement of something PG-ish would be a good idea, yes. While everyone and their grandmother dropped such programs when the MTG litigation case appeared, the fears do no appear to have been justified. And it is fully possible to grow PP games locally. With more support it would be easier.


It might be too late. Is a new Press Ganger going to have much joy in a store that doesn't stock WM/H? Is a store going to reinvest in WM/H again just because a bright-eyed PG rocks up and promises to demo? As a small town game shop owner in the UK, I'm in the 'no' camp.


We built it up from 2 players to 50-60 without any of them being Press Gangers in an environment where the LGS told us there was no chance of taking in any PP stock again, so I am certain it is possible.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





Sunno wrote:
Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
A reinstatement of something PG-ish would be a good idea, yes. While everyone and their grandmother dropped such programs when the MTG litigation case appeared, the fears do no appear to have been justified. And it is fully possible to grow PP games locally. With more support it would be easier.


Things is most/many games companies didn't. Wyrd/Malifaux still has theirs. I believe Infinity has one. Moonstone has one (my friend is part of it). And so on. I don't know the in and out of what they entail, if they get rewards or if its just a formally recognised volunteer. But again, if similar sized companies can do it successfully, why not PP


That's because the whole press gangers going away because of the MTG lawsuit is a myth. It was because the program was too large and unmanageable and Privateer couldn't keep it running well (it was more work then one person full time could do). They've talked about this before but people keep on getting stuck on the MTG lawsuit for whatever stupid reason.

Press Gangers won't bring the game back partly because lack of organized play isn't the only large problem the game has from everything the past 2 years of these threads have taught me.

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
MarkNorfolk wrote:
Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
A reinstatement of something PG-ish would be a good idea, yes. While everyone and their grandmother dropped such programs when the MTG litigation case appeared, the fears do no appear to have been justified. And it is fully possible to grow PP games locally. With more support it would be easier.


It might be too late. Is a new Press Ganger going to have much joy in a store that doesn't stock WM/H? Is a store going to reinvest in WM/H again just because a bright-eyed PG rocks up and promises to demo? As a small town game shop owner in the UK, I'm in the 'no' camp.


We built it up from 2 players to 50-60 without any of them being Press Gangers in an environment where the LGS told us there was no chance of taking in any PP stock again, so I am certain it is possible.


I've seen large groups of D&D organized play crumble because the one person doing all the work stopped because of life and no one else wanting to do it for free (as it's a lot of work to have 4-5 games going) and it took a long time to come back at that store. Things like PG are a flawed system that relies on only one person to set up and organize everything. The community as a whole (locally) and the game store/club need to have some shared ownership/responsibility in keeping things going and not some sanctioned official who doesn't get paid and puts way more work into then they should and get burned out. The community needs to stop waiting for one person to do all the work and do it themselves collectively if they want to see more play.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/08/04 03:48:20


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Turns out when you add "...and the extra time & effort to build a new community" to the price of a Wargame's rulebook those Warhammer ones seem a lot cheaper. Like it or not, that's the reality.

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I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in no
Umber Guard






The MTG lawsuit definitely was the event that triggered the Press Gang getting disbanded, but yes, as I have written elsewhere, the Gang was getting unmanageable. It was very large, and there was sadly many PG's that reported events without really putting in the work. It was, as you say, getting difficult to handle. But to call it a myth is overdramatic. It was one of a number of factors that led them to remove it.

The community needs to take responsibility for its own games, yes. But there will always be someone who does more heavy lifting than others. That applies for the local kid football team or film club as much as it does for miniatures wargaming. The PG (or Outrider, or Warcor, or Henchman, or whatever) program is just a way to reward those people for putting in the extra work. After the PG program ended, the people who either had just become PGs or were planning to be (and replace me as I went into my new house+kids phase) still did a lot of that work. I don't know if they would have been more active if they had been PGs, but I am fairly certain they would have spent more time doing demos and outreach rather than organizing a lot of tournaments, which was closer to their interests at the time.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I think a formal PG system helps because it provides support and standards through the system. It's also a title and a thing someone can be proud of which helps their motivation.

Don't forget you had to own 2 starter forces in good condition and pass some basic tests of rules competence and such. There's also the comradery of working within a team even if you're all over the country/world.
Plus you can share ideas with each other - sometimes you've got local people who really want a game to get popular and have no idea how to do it. Or they do one demo game and it doesn't catch and they give up after one try etc...


A support network that's formally run (so it keeps going) is a very powerful tool. Indeed many hobbies have them - the people who organise local football events are often members of associations and groups that help link up other groups; providing support, bonuses, opportunities and just a basic network of communication to allow for inter-group events and the like.

It allows sharing and pooling of resources and knowledge.



PP really took a dive due to multiple things at once, but shutting down the PG system was certainly one of the more major nails in the coffin I think. PP could do a lot to start outreach again and today I'd say PG would be one part of that - the other would be social media content creators.
There's a lot PP can do cheaply and with little cost to themselves to help promote their position.

A Blog in Miniature

The Swarm Arises

Do you ever notice, sometimes, there's an extra post? 
   
Made in gb
Hungry Ork Hunta Lying in Wait





PG in my local area really helped cultivate a scene and was great.

The final nail in the coffin for my entire area was Theme-machine. Either you played in theme at start of 3rd ed and get massive bonus vs the majority of casual players who just wanted to play with their models and have fun.

Factor in the CID elements and it was too much to keep up with in addition to models being a PITA to actually buy locally just made everyone lose interest and go to GW, Legion, Maulifaux, KoW. Hell all other games and its sad my trollbloods sit on a shelf now days :( (Mountain King remains one of the nicest wargaming models I own and I adore using it whenver I can, no matter the system)
   
 
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