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In the books since the beginning of WH 40k, they have reference the Ork Gods Gork and Mork, however they have also stated that they may or may not be real... Do you think it is just a false belief, the subconscious psyche of the race as a whole, really worshiping Khorne (unlikely as they do not spawn demons or khorne beserkers)... Just curious what everyone else feelings are... cheers

Gork and Mork are they real gods or the unified psyche of the Ork race?

Is there a feasible difference between those two concepts?

They may also be lesser warp entities...like weak Chaos Gods (think Great Horned Rat). Thats just my view....and being a Chaos player for a while now...i might be biased seeing everything as shades of chaos

Melissia wrote:

Gork and Mork are they real gods or the unified psyche of the Ork race?

Is there a feasible difference between those two concepts?

Also, most lore that describes a move made by Gork (or possibly Mork) includes that small caveat in it...its always possibly the other at any time.
Indeed, Gork is "Cunnin' an brootal" whilst Mork is "Brootal an cunnin' " thats the only real distinction orks have drawn between their own two gods.

greg0985 wrote:They may also be lesser warp entities...like weak Chaos Gods

Actually they're described as being utter monstrosities in the warp, shrugging off the attacks fo the chaos gods as if they were utterly invulnerable.

Gork and Mork are stronger than the chaos gods, to be sure. This is no surprise, considering that Orks outnumber every other sentient race in the galaxy

Melissia wrote:

greg0985 wrote:They may also be lesser warp entities...like weak Chaos Gods

Actually they're described as being utter monstrosities in the warp, shrugging off the attacks fo the chaos gods as if they were utterly invulnerable.

Gork and Mork are stronger than the chaos gods, to be sure. This is no surprise, considering that Orks outnumber every other sentient race in the galaxy

Hmmm..i dont know about that one man...sounds like Orky propaganda. Lore set up in several novels seems to indicate that the chaos powers are an immutable fact about the universe....and even goes as far as to hint that they are, and always have been, eternal. I know this directly contradicts some of the lore established in codices and WFB army books...but Dan Abnett's never led me wrong before I would assume that in the face of such powers, no other force stands a chance.

Edit** reason i posted this bit, is it seems to me that despite the number of orks-to-humans (or indeed any warp-sensitive race), if the gods ARE enternal, then they are far older then our universe, and far more powerful then anyone in our existance can fathom...or care to think. (thinking of things hinted to by the Omphalos Daemonium in Dead Sky Black Sun)

greg0985 wrote:Lore set up in several novels seems to indicate that the chaos powers are an immutable fact about the universe

That's what is believed by chaos heretics. Whom know very little, if anything, about the big C "Chaos" to begin with, even chaos marines know less than we do.

But in truth, the Chaos Gods are drawn from the emotions of mortals, just as Gork and Mork are drawn from the psyche of the Orkoid race.

And what I stated was in the Ork codex, rather than novels.

Personally i always take 'codex lore' with a grain of salt. Almost all the lore in the codices are examples of victories by the race in question. Also...some codex lore is written by Matt Ward...thus we both loose this argument in 6th ed. we all might be written out of existence.

greg0985 wrote:Personally i always take 'codex lore' with a grain of salt.

It's better than novels, which have the consistency of a soggy... paper.

Melissia wrote:

greg0985 wrote:Personally i always take 'codex lore' with a grain of salt.

It's better than novels, which have the consistency of a soggy... paper.

No argument here brother

Gork and Mork are the most powerful Warp entities in existance.

Fortunantly for everyone else, just like orks, they are just as content to slap each other around as bash their counterparts.

This is why Ghaz's Waaagh is so dangerous, if the Orks ever unify, so do Gork and Mork. Then the entirety of existance is pwned and neither Dark God nor the might of Mortals can stand before them.

greg0985 wrote:

Melissia wrote:

greg0985 wrote:They may also be lesser warp entities...like weak Chaos Gods

Actually they're described as being utter monstrosities in the warp, shrugging off the attacks fo the chaos gods as if they were utterly invulnerable.

Gork and Mork are stronger than the chaos gods, to be sure. This is no surprise, considering that Orks outnumber every other sentient race in the galaxy

Hmmm..i dont know about that one man...sounds like Orky propaganda. Lore set up in several novels seems to indicate that the chaos powers are an immutable fact about the universe....and even goes as far as to hint that they are, and always have been, eternal. I know this directly contradicts some of the lore established in codices and WFB army books...but Dan Abnett's never led me wrong before I would assume that in the face of such powers, no other force stands a chance.

Edit** reason i posted this bit, is it seems to me that despite the number of orks-to-humans (or indeed any warp-sensitive race), if the gods ARE enternal, then they are far older then our universe, and far more powerful then anyone in our existance can fathom...or care to think. (thinking of things hinted to by the Omphalos Daemonium in Dead Sky Black Sun)

It is stated in rogue trader, Eldar Codices and Necron, That when the old ones built the webway which the Eldar perfected that the warp was a safe place as there had not been enough phychic sentient races to influence it, as time went on the warp took shape and became more material and dangerous... Now I do concede that the gods of chaos could have existed in some form before that (except for Slaanesh as we know where he/she came from to the Eldar's chagrin). We know that the Eldar gods all were consumed by Slaanesh except for Iris who is captive of papa nurgle and used to test new plagues as she can not die, the laughing god and in shards kaela mensha kaine....

I like the idea of the psyche being a warp incantation of the gods, cool idea


Automatically Appended Next Post:

greg0985 wrote:Personally i always take 'codex lore' with a grain of salt. Almost all the lore in the codices are examples of victories by the race in question. Also...some codex lore is written by Matt Ward...thus we both loose this argument in 6th ed. we all might be written out of existence.

MATT WARD NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Dont forget Khaine...though he exists in a fractured state, hes still around (kinda). Now durring the War in Heaven, Khaine did battle with a C'tan, and though he defeated it, the fractured Necrodemis was absorbed into Khaine's molten blood, forever darkening his aspect. Could this also have provided Khaine with some protection from Slaanesh's predation? since the C'tan are beings purely of our universe? Or since the warp is still anathema to the c'tan...could it just be nothing at all?

If you read the Daemons codex it states that the warp has no time, everything that has been or will be already exists or has already happened in the warp. Slannesh always existed, the Eldar just brought him out into the real world. Read the fluff its kinda cool. The gods exist forever because there is no time in the warp.

It is funny since in the Eldar codex they talk about how he slowly came into being through the decadence of the Eldar and their pleasure seaking and that the psychic scream of her birth is what created the eye of terror and the death of most of the Eldar... So that contradicts what is said in the deamon codex.. Though I understand that time is not measured in the immaterium, you can not always exist without a birth.... In addition that would mean that all the Eldar gods would not be dead if they existed forever, but they were slain by Slaanesh except for Isha, the laughing God and Khaines shattered existence.... Cheers

Funk3140 wrote:If you read the Daemons codex it states that the warp has no time, everything that has been or will be already exists or has already happened in the warp. Slannesh always existed, the Eldar just brought him out into the real world. Read the fluff its kinda cool. The gods exist forever because there is no time in the warp.

It also says that the Emperor is the only thing keeping the Daemons from conquering humanity, so that must mean that daemons will never succeed since he was always there and always will be according to the daemon lore?

greg0985 wrote:In 6th ed. we all might be written out of existence.

Sig'd

Gork and Mork are generally accepted to be the most powerful things in existence. IIRC, when the Emperor felt their presence in the warp for the first time, he wet himself in fear or something. Many, however, believe that Gork/Mork is/are just different faces of Khorne in the same way Khaine may/may not be. Khorne IS the god of warfare, and the Orks do like to fight. So it is feasible that Orky warfare created said facet of Khorne.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:

greg0985 wrote:In 6th ed. we all might be written out of existence.

Sig'd

Gork and Mork are generally accepted to be the most powerful things in existence. IIRC, when the Emperor felt their presence in the warp for the first time, he wet himself in fear or something. Many, however, believe that Gork/Mork is/are just different faces of Khorne in the same way Khaine may/may not be. Khorne IS the god of warfare, and the Orks do like to fight. So it is feasible that Orky warfare created said facet of Khorne.

I agree with that assesment, however why don't they spawn demons or have greater demons running around.... Or Ork Khorne beserkers...

The emperor we himself... hilarious.. would love to have seen that.. embarrasing

Eiluj The Farseer wrote:I agree with that assesment, however why don't they spawn demons or have greater demons running around

Why do they NEED to?

Orks already dominate the galaxy.

Gork and Mork are not Khorne/Khaine.

Khorne and Khaine are Human and Eldar war gods. G&M are the Ork version. And because all the Orks know is war, they are the most powerful War Gods.

If Gork and Mork ever decide to take on the Human Gods, it would be a bloodbath for the Deamons.

Chowderhead wrote:Gork and Mork are not Khorne/Khaine.

Khorne and Khaine are Human and Eldar war gods. G&M are the Ork version. And because all the Orks know is war, they are the most powerful War Gods.

If Gork and Mork ever decide to take on the Human Gods, it would be a bloodbath for the Deamons.

That's my point, Khorne is the god of all war. Not just war by humans, but all war. So the Orks also power Khorne, same with Khaine. Which is why it is my theory (and many others) that all the other gods of war (Gork/Mork, Khaine...) are facets of Khorne. Bits of the Blood God that the respective races power or created. But they are still Khorne.

In some of the older ork codexes it mentions how Gork and Mork run around in the kingdoms of chaos and beat up the other chaos gods, Nurgle in particular because death and disease hold no meaning to orks.

One thing to remember though is that Gork and Mork are not gods of war. They are simply the ork gods of the philosophy that orks are made for fighting and winning. Hence while the chaos gods like Khorn represent the galaxies emotions of violence and anger, the gods Gork and Mork just represent fighting between and with orks.

as for them creating demons, they dont need to. To an ork having some entity from the warp spawn is just another enemy to krump. They would be completely against the idea of fighting alongside some warp spawned creature because it is un-orky.

Whether it is an Ork that spills blood, or a crazed World Eater Bezerker... All blood belongs to Khorne, all skulls too. Anyone going round, even if they don't scream MAIM KILL BURN, killing people power the blood god.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Whether it is an Ork that spills blood, or a crazed World Eater Bezerker...

Orks don't feed Khorne, however-- they feed Gork and Mork. And even "feed" in this instance is misleading.

Melissia wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Whether it is an Ork that spills blood, or a crazed World Eater Bezerker...

Orks don't feed Khorne, however-- they feed Gork and Mork. And even "feed" in this instance is misleading.

Pretty much this, actively worshipping an entity steals the power away from the Chaos god it should have gone to and redirects it to them. Hence, the Imperium of Man fuels the Emperor rather than the Chaos Gods as long as the individual in question believes in the Emperor strongly enough. The orks as a whole consider the Chaos Gods to be weedy little gods for wusses, and they're right, Gork and Mork are so powerful that they've canonically used Nurgle more or less as a living Volley Ball. When the first gargant was built, Khorne was stated to feel unrelenting fear right before Gork and Mork celebrated by beating up every other major entity in the warp.

I've always understood it like this:

Khorne does lay claim all loose psychic energy generated in relation to war and bloodshed, but the orks psychic energy does not fall into that category, nor can it be claimed by any of the Chaos gods.

The orks psychic energy is all 'controlled' (for a given definition) and tied up in the WAAAGH!, or which Gork and Mork are a part. That is why they are largely uncorruptable (at least spiritually) by chaos, and why humans are so vulnerable.

Human psychic energy is ALL loose and unfocused, they are easy prey for chaos.

Eldar energy was mostly focused at their gods. They were well defended, it wasn't until the end of their empire that their decadence generated enough loose energy to generate a chaos god. They fell because they lost their purpose and focus.

Orks psychic energy is almost entirely focused on being orky, on feeding the WAAAGH! field and thus Gork and Mork.

Khorne, and the other chaos gods, can mostly only claim loose, uncontrolled psychic energy. For the longest time Khaine was a separate entity from Khorne, the focus of the Eldar's war focused psychic energy. At the birth of Slaanesh Khorne claimed Khaine and his portfolio, and thus gained access to the Eldar.

As for the 'timeless' thing, while it may be true that time has no function in the warp, it does effect the ways in which the warp interacts with the materium. Before Slaanesh's birth he effectively didn't exist as far as the materium was concerned.

riplikash wrote:I've always understood it like this:

Khorne does lay claim all loose psychic energy generated in relation to war and bloodshed, but the orks psychic energy does not fall into that category, nor can it be claimed by any of the Chaos gods.

The orks psychic energy is all 'controlled' (for a given definition) and tied up in the WAAAGH!, or which Gork and Mork are a part. That is why they are largely uncorruptable (at least spiritually) by chaos, and why humans are so vulnerable.

Human psychic energy is ALL loose and unfocused, they are easy prey for chaos.

Eldar energy was mostly focused at their gods. They were well defended, it wasn't until the end of their empire that their decadence generated enough loose energy to generate a chaos god. They fell because they lost their purpose and focus.

Orks psychic energy is almost entirely focused on being orky, on feeding the WAAAGH! field and thus Gork and Mork.

Khorne, and the other chaos gods, can mostly only claim loose, uncontrolled psychic energy. For the longest time Khaine was a separate entity from Khorne, the focus of the Eldar's war focused psychic energy. At the birth of Slaanesh Khorne claimed Khaine and his portfolio, and thus gained access to the Eldar.

As for the 'timeless' thing, while it may be true that time has no function in the warp, it does effect the ways in which the warp interacts with the materium. Before Slaanesh's birth he effectively didn't exist as far as the materium was concerned.

I like this explaination, I also like the idea of Gork and Mork kicking pus filled pappa Nurgle's but around the immaterium..

Orks don't care about your "logical explanations" and "if this is true, then it must follow that..." and all your other debates of philosophy and planar cosmology. Theology is not an Orky pursuit... Orkz is made for fightin' an' winnin', and dem Chaos Boyz, dey ain't proppa Orky, dey ain't proppa fresh an' blood.

Psienesis wrote:Orks don't care about your "logical explanations" and "if this is true, then it must follow that..." and all your other debates of philosophy and planar cosmology. Theology is not an Orky pursuit... Orkz is made for fightin' an' winnin', and dem Chaos Boyz, dey ain't proppa Orky, dey ain't proppa fresh an' blood.

True

Melissia wrote:

greg0985 wrote:They may also be lesser warp entities...like weak Chaos Gods

Actually they're described as being utter monstrosities in the warp, shrugging off the attacks fo the chaos gods as if they were utterly invulnerable.

Gork and Mork are stronger than the chaos gods, to be sure. This is no surprise, considering that Orks outnumber every other sentient race in the galaxy

Yes, no offense Greg but I think Gork and Mork could easily stomp the Chaos Gods if they were inclined to.

I thought that the fluff could easily be described in one sentence right? My interpretation is...

The warp makes emotion/belief take physical form, thus the emperor really is a literal God, thanks to the belief of trillions of humans, all of the chaos Gods exist thanks to the emotions of trillions of humanoids manifesting as the Gods, and Gork and Mork obviously physically exist, thanks to the belief of a staggering number of Orks.

Is that correct? Cos that's how I always presumed it worked. I also guess they got the numbers wrong, because I read a book that said there were 300 billion humans on a hive world?

So surely there are literally trillions of humans, not mere billions?

And if Orks outnumber humans?

Gork and Mork must be the big cheese of the warp!