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The news and rumors forum almost looks like a list of beggars for money these days. Multiple fledgling miniatures companies and proposed wargames all apparently receiving donations. have any of these ever gone on to become a commercially released, published game? Have any miniatures been produced? Most importantly, has anyone received what was promised to them for donating money?

I'm curious what dakka thinks of this.

Would you donate money to someone with one of these causes?

Personally, I don't like it and would never give them any money. I think there's enough games out there and between infinity, malifaux and 40k that's enough gaming and miniatures action to keep me satisfied.

Cave_Dweller wrote:The news and rumors forum almost looks like a list of beggars for money these days. Multiple fledgling miniatures companies and proposed wargames all apparently receiving donations. have any of these ever gone on to become a commercially released, published game? Have any miniatures been produced? Most importantly, has anyone received what was promised to them for donating money?

I'm curious what dakka thinks of this.

Would you donate money to someone with one of these causes?

Personally, I don't like it and would never give them any money. I think there's enough games out there and between infinity, malifaux and 40k that's enough gaming and miniatures action to keep me satisfied.

Already donated to a couple of them. It has only been recently though and I dont expect anything for several months yet.

brettz123 wrote:

Cave_Dweller wrote:The news and rumors forum almost looks like a list of beggars for money these days. Multiple fledgling miniatures companies and proposed wargames all apparently receiving donations. have any of these ever gone on to become a commercially released, published game? Have any miniatures been produced? Most importantly, has anyone received what was promised to them for donating money?

I'm curious what dakka thinks of this.

Would you donate money to someone with one of these causes?

Personally, I don't like it and would never give them any money. I think there's enough games out there and between infinity, malifaux and 40k that's enough gaming and miniatures action to keep me satisfied.

Already donated to a couple of them. It has only been recently though and I dont expect anything for several months yet.

My wife and I got in on the Blackwater Gulch kickstarter...however we likely wont see anything from that for a couple months. That being said, they hit over $21,000 with an original goal of $3500...so Id say the game will see distribution.

1 for 1 on Kickstarter. I was a backer in a set of real metal coins, which I then used as event swag at Adepticon. Very happy with the results.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1095993227/realm-coins

I backed the first Star Wars Miniatures Virtual Set, which turned inot a bit of a saga but came through eventually.

I also backed the Dreamforge Stormtruppen, and received those with no problems whatsoever.

Oh yeah, there was a Star Wars Minis Map kickstarter that went off without a hitch as well.


Personally, I think it's a great way of getting a venture off the ground. It's ultimately no different to companies taking pre-orders... just lets them do it a little earlier in the process.

Miniwargaming's Dark Potential recieved $80,000 or so after an original goal of $10,000. They are starting work on the sculpts now.

I am all for Kickstarter I am just not all into established companies using it. It just feels somewhat wrong when a company like Mantic uses Kickstarter. It sucks the air from other projects that are more deserving of the limited money many people have to donate.

tastytaste wrote:I am all for Kickstarter I am just not all into established companies using it. It just feels somewhat wrong when a company like Mantic uses Kickstarter. It sucks the air from other projects that are more deserving of the limited money many people have to donate.

You don't think those people would be pre-ordering from Mantic anyway?

Kickstarter allows projects to happen that otherwise might not. I care far less about how established the project starter is than how interesting the project is,

insaniak wrote:

tastytaste wrote:I am all for Kickstarter I am just not all into established companies using it. It just feels somewhat wrong when a company like Mantic uses Kickstarter. It sucks the air from other projects that are more deserving of the limited money many people have to donate.

You don't think those people would be pre-ordering from Mantic anyway?

Kickstarter allows projects to happen that otherwise might not. I care far less about how established the project starter is than how interesting the project is,

Mantic could do the same "project" and promote it on their website with prizes for "pre-ordering" they don't need kickstarter to do that. Instead they use Kickstarter potentially taking money away from "mom and pop" operations just getting off the ground.

tastytaste wrote:

insaniak wrote:

tastytaste wrote:I am all for Kickstarter I am just not all into established companies using it. It just feels somewhat wrong when a company like Mantic uses Kickstarter. It sucks the air from other projects that are more deserving of the limited money many people have to donate.

You don't think those people would be pre-ordering from Mantic anyway?

Kickstarter allows projects to happen that otherwise might not. I care far less about how established the project starter is than how interesting the project is,

Mantic could do the same "project" and promote it on their website with prizes for "pre-ordering" they don't need kickstarter to do that. Instead they use Kickstarter potentially taking money away from "mom and pop" operations just getting off the ground.

I fail to see how it takes any money away from other projects. It would be nice if they signed up to "Kick it forward" but other than that they are simply occupying a slot on a website.

As it is, people have been yelling at mantic to speed up their release schedule, and they have found a way to do that successfully.

tastytaste wrote:Mantic could do the same "project" and promote it on their website with prizes for "pre-ordering" they don't need kickstarter to do that. Instead they use Kickstarter potentially taking money away from "mom and pop" operations just getting off the ground.

Out of interest, what about the following:

Steve Jackson Games, with Ogre
CoolMiniorNot, with Zombicide
CoolMiniorNot & Studio McVey, with Sedition Wars

Should they be using Kickstarter?

Heck, even White Wolf has a kickstarter out there..

I got in on the Kickstarter for the cyberpunk noir wargame The Department. It funded, the game got designed and then I got the game.

Kickstarter's success marks a major change in the formation of capital. It replaces the middle men of yesteryear with new ones that get the money directly from the future customers rather than from venture capitalists or bankers.

It's a direct threat to a lot of companies that are dependant on the traditional ways of forming capital and producing a product in that it makes competing with them so much easier.

Which means more variety and more content that matches the desires of the customer. It also reduces the strength of "I'll tell you what to like" that modern marketing is focuses on.

It worked for micro-loans to help third world economies on a local level and it works for formation of capital for product development.

I like everything about it. As it becomes more prevalent and efficient, the middle men should be satisfied with a smaller and smaller portion as well, reducing the cost of raising capital further.

I do lots of kickstarters and I like the model a lot. I do have some criteria for any project I fund though:

1.) It's gotta be something I want!
2.) The goals have to be non-nebulous. I want to see prototypes, concept art, greens, something to make me think they can actually deliver what they want to do and it's only a lack of funds holding them back. Kickstarter already requires this but nonetheless you still see projects asking for thousands of dollars for undefined "future projects".
3.) It needs to be clear why they need crowd funding to undergo the project. For example, Space Corsair makes these really awesome conversion kits which are cast by Jacqualine. If they hypothetically were to hold a Kickstarter looking for $1500 to build a good vacuum chamber, or to hire someone for a few hours to help them churn out minis and QA them, something like that; I'd consider that to be a great Kickstarter. That's just an example, I believe she just bought new equipment - my point is that I need to feel like they actually have something they want to get off the ground that's reasonable and clear.


Edit: I don't really have a problem with small commercial studios using KS to do projects; especially if they want to try out something that is outside of their core competencies and are unsure how the market would see it. Better to have a failed KS then to have actually taken your limited actual R&D dollars and spent it on a project no one wants to buy!

tastytaste wrote:

insaniak wrote:

tastytaste wrote:I am all for Kickstarter I am just not all into established companies using it. It just feels somewhat wrong when a company like Mantic uses Kickstarter. It sucks the air from other projects that are more deserving of the limited money many people have to donate.

You don't think those people would be pre-ordering from Mantic anyway?

Kickstarter allows projects to happen that otherwise might not. I care far less about how established the project starter is than how interesting the project is,

Mantic could do the same "project" and promote it on their website with prizes for "pre-ordering" they don't need kickstarter to do that. Instead they use Kickstarter potentially taking money away from "mom and pop" operations just getting off the ground.

Well, to be fair Mantic is only, what, half a dozen full time guys? So perhaps mom, dad and a couple of cousins

I can kind of see the point about Steve Jackson, and I always thought he was mega-rich after getting Tomb Raider off the ground and numerous other popular ventures over the years. But who knows, maybe it all went on loose living?

I think Kickstarter might be good for the industry as a whole, or at least the other companies apart from the big ones, it's definitely drawing attention to some of the new releases which might have otherwise slipped onto release with only a few real enthusiasts realising that it was even here.

tastytaste wrote:
Mantic could do the same "project" and promote it on their website with prizes for "pre-ordering" they don't need kickstarter to do that. Instead they use Kickstarter potentially taking money away from "mom and pop" operations just getting off the ground.

Alternatively, more established companies using kickstarter could potentially drive more people to the site, and encourage them to dip a toe in where they might not have been game to for some small company they have never heard of... And then once that goes well, they're encouraged top start looking around at those other projects.

Everyone wins.

I went in on the zombicide game and look forward to getting the game (and all the extra stuff ).

I can see going in for maybe a big project once a year or so (something where you need to put up 100usd to get any decent 'reward' and can certainly see myself going in for the odd single figure type project with a low buy in.

The only thing which is annoying is the obscene outside US shipping charges everyone in the US seems to want to charge which limits how much I would be willing to invest, if at all.s

Yeah, I went in on the Zombiecide Kickstarter too. The images of what you will get sold it really well. I'm guessing sending out 5000-10000 games for $600,000+ can be considered successful.

The Mantic one by comparison leaves me flat. While it will meet its meagre goals it looks like a rushed effort and as such I don't think they will achieve what they could have done. A comparable failure IMO.

I too have a bit of a cob on about the Shipping fees too. McVeys studios kickstarter has it and they are UK based. I'm holding off on that until it get dealt with. $25 isn't that much compared to some things I have gotten from the US ($90 for the RT collectors Ed - thanks FFG!) but its enough that you don’t want to commit until there’s soooo much stuff added on it becomes viable.

I'm assuming Kickstarter makes it's money from interest, or do they take a slice of the donation pie too?

They take a percentage of the donations. Interest wouldn't work, as no money changes hands until a project reaches it's target.

They take a piece of the pie.

insaniak wrote:They take a percentage of the donations. Interest wouldn't work, as no money changes hands until a project reaches it's target.

Ah right, I thought when you donated they took your money right away. So do all the payments just come off at the final day of support, and nothing happens if they don't reach their goal?

I guess that would be easier than having to refund a ton of people or people just loosing money for something that wasn't going to go ahead.

Whoever is running the project emails you at the end of the promotion to arrange payment. You don't hand over any payment information until that point.

notprop wrote:Yeah, I went in on the Zombiecide Kickstarter too. The images of what you will get sold it really well. I'm guessing sending out 5000-10000 games for $600,000+ can be considered successful.

The Mantic one by comparison leaves me flat. While it will meet its meagre goals it looks like a rushed effort and as such I don't think they will achieve what they could have done. A comparable failure IMO.

I too have a bit of a cob on about the Shipping fees too. McVeys studios kickstarter has it and they are UK based. I'm holding off on that until it get dealt with. $25 isn't that much compared to some things I have gotten from the US ($90 for the RT collectors Ed - thanks FFG!) but its enough that you don’t want to commit until there’s soooo much stuff added on it becomes viable.

I thought that at first too, but it looks a lot more organised now. It's jumped up quite a bit in terms of donations, not to a mental amount like Zombicide but not far off $40,000 last time I looked.

insaniak wrote:Whoever is running the project emails you at the end of the promotion to arrange payment. You don't hand over any payment information until that point.

Kickstart takes your credit card info when you become a backer. If the project meets its target $$/days, then they charge the account. There is no follow up once you commit yourself.

I am kind of meh about big companies using kickstarter and indiegogo too. I have just launched a campaign on idiegogo to try and get a business venture off the ground in my local area as well as a online store front too, with this said I sit there watching big money being earned by big companies who are already well established while I am still sat on zero raised.

That said coming from the point stated earlier that the big company draws in the people to snoop around and then contribute to others... Looking at it this way is actually a good thing. Whether this is the way it will work, who knows!!

I guess I'll just carry out sitting and watching the fat cat get fatter.

And as stated previously they take a piece of the pie, more like 4% off final fee plus a percentage for people paying by card!!

Cave_Dweller wrote:The news and rumors forum almost looks like a list of beggars for money these days. Multiple fledgling miniatures companies and proposed wargames all apparently receiving donations. have any of these ever gone on to become a commercially released, published game? Have any miniatures been produced? Most importantly, has anyone received what was promised to them for donating money?

I'm curious what dakka thinks of this.

Would you donate money to someone with one of these causes?

Personally, I don't like it and would never give them any money. I think there's enough games out there and between infinity, malifaux and 40k that's enough gaming and miniatures action to keep me satisfied.

Dakka likes some of the products.

The monies are there for the games, if they get shafted, we can deal with that if it comes, but Cool mini or not has been a pretty good egg so far.

If someone like GW, or the other "Established" companies did it, I would more then likely hesitate. The smaller companies seem to have better ideas, and are not afrade of trying something new, hence- they get my money.

There was the little issue of the Kickstarter pulling that card game, so they are indeed on my keep an eye on them, and watch your wallet. phase.

When they did that, they opened themselves up for some seriously impacting third and fourth order effects, so definatly, I do not fund just anything.

Kickstarter's fee along with Amazon Payments fees come out to around 10%. So, Ogre made $923680, but in the end probably got closer to like $830k or so

but, KS is a great tool for new or existing businesses. If you're a new company with a cool product, you can get it funded. If you're an existing company, it can be a great tool just for managing pre-orders or an also marketing.

KS worked really well for me, I intend to use it for many other projects in the future

insaniak wrote:Whoever is running the project emails you at the end of the promotion to arrange payment. You don't hand over any payment information until that point.

After learning this I'm much less opposed to Kickstarter and might actually support something now.

Medium of death - in that case back us hahahahahahaha!

On a more serious note I highly reccommend torgamings relic project! Great stuff there!