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I thought I would start this thread to talk about those times when you have said or heard the phrase "It's not your list".

So often gamers get stuck on list building, for the Win, they forget there is so much more to the game, Tactics, Understanding the rules, Knowing your opponents codex, Target Priority and so on. The phrase "It's not your List" can seem to be harsh at times but can also be a very helpful phrase as well.

Anyone have any positive and/or helpful stories where this phrase was said that they would like to share?

Happens all the time. Newbie plays Vet. Newbie loses. Newbie blames his list. Vet explains that it's not his list, but how he plays it, that's more deciding.

i played draigowing this weekend and beat it with PA DA. It all comes down to knowing how your army works and how to maximize against the enemy.

It is when you get to tournaments that list building matters because all players have skill and good lists.

Eventually when you get to the top tournaments it comes down to a good list good tactics and good dice.

Well, the problem is that most often it IS their list.

When new players make their own lists, it's based on a lack of understanding of how the game actually works. When you go through the process organically, you learn how to play the army on the table concurrently with how the army itself should be constructed. By the time you are able to make good lists, you probably know how to play them.

The phenominon mentioned here is when players "cheat" by just taking a good list from the internet, but have no idea why it's a good list. In this case, their list building "skills" have vastly outstripped their ability to know what to actually do with their lists once they get there.

This doesn't seem to happen all that often, and when it does, it's usually painfully obvious. If you can't pull off a victory with what is CLEARLY a copy/paste leafblower or razorspam list, then it really isn't the list that's at fault.

For most people, they have something that they don't understand about the game which manifests itself in poor list design. Correcting the person's list, and really explaining why it needs correcting, often simultaneously addresses more serious problems on the table.

I prefer to think of list building as strategy and the actual game played as tactics. You have to build your list based either on a strategy for a known enemy (playing a friend) or a strategy for an unknown enemy (playing a tournament) Once you have the strategy down (your list built) you need to learn how to implement it tactically (playing the game) Just because a strategy did not work, does not mean it is wrong, it could have just failed tactically. The goal is to not pigeon-hole your strategy so that you have no tactical flexibility to react both to your opponents strategy and tactics.

Yeah, I havent really won a game or find a list i like but i can attest, lis building is second.
, Like last night on the two games i played, i had a rifleman dread. First game i used it on Marines. Useless. They exxplain how it was scary against his armor but i didnt use it.
Preceding game i downed two war walkers in a squadron, with one arm on it.

i think about this allot mostly when i see things like this:

10 man tactical squad with missile launcher and flamer..in rhino

why oh why do all these noobs put heavy weapons in rhinos it makes no sense... and to take it even futher i would call anyone who puts a space marine tactical squad in a rhino a noob. space marine squads are shooty not about trying to CC the enemy stay at 24 inch range and shot wait for them to come to you...

when you do need a rhino is when you have veterans with power weapons and plasma/meltaguns

same for imperial guard players who take 2-4 chimeras in a 1500 point game its just stupid why do you want ur little guys moved up close at the enemy? maybe if you had ogryns or storm troopers but then again you would deep strike them... or a squad with a few melta guns maybe...

people dont think of the real use of their characters if your guy has a bolter or lasgun he shouldnt be in CC.

spaceXjam wrote:i think about this allot mostly when i see things like this:

10 man tactical squad with missile launcher and flamer..in rhino

why oh why do all these noobs put heavy weapons in rhinos it makes no sense... and to take it even futher i would call anyone who puts a space marine tactical squad in a rhino a noob. space marine squads are shooty not about trying to CC the enemy stay at 24 inch range and shot wait for them to come to you...

when you do need a rhino is when you have veterans with power weapons and plasma/meltaguns

same for imperial guard players who take 2-4 chimeras in a 1500 point game its just stupid why do you want ur little guys moved up close at the enemy? maybe if you had ogryns or storm troopers but then again you would deep strike them... or a squad with a few melta guns maybe...

people dont think of the real use of their characters if your guy has a bolter or lasgun he shouldnt be in CC.

...OR, you could drive them up to rapid fire range. Or use the Rhinos to get to objectives. Hell, why would you think of CC when you think of a Rhino to begin with? It ain't an assault vehicle. That post just seemed... Highly uneducated.

spaceXjam wrote:i think about this allot mostly when i see things like this:

10 man tactical squad with missile launcher and flamer..in rhino

why oh why do all these noobs put heavy weapons in rhinos it makes no sense... and to take it even futher i would call anyone who puts a space marine tactical squad in a rhino a noob. space marine squads are shooty not about trying to CC the enemy stay at 24 inch range and shot wait for them to come to you...

when you do need a rhino is when you have veterans with power weapons and plasma/meltaguns

same for imperial guard players who take 2-4 chimeras in a 1500 point game its just stupid why do you want ur little guys moved up close at the enemy? maybe if you had ogryns or storm troopers but then again you would deep strike them... or a squad with a few melta guns maybe...

people dont think of the real use of their characters if your guy has a bolter or lasgun he shouldnt be in CC.

People take transports not for the maneuverability advantage but usually for the survivability advantage. Transport + troops is harder to kill than troops by their lonesome. So actually, yes, it does make sense.

spaceXjam wrote:i think about this allot mostly when i see things like this:

10 man tactical squad with missile launcher and flamer..in rhino

why oh why do all these noobs put heavy weapons in rhinos it makes no sense... .

It actually makes perfect sense:

A) it increases their survivability

B) In non-KP games (i.e 2/3 times) the squad can be combat-squaded allowing more scoring units and a missile launcher backfield for fire-support and a flamer running about in a rhino upfield.

Iranna.

Makes perfect sense to use a rhino for a shooty unit.

A: It keeps them safe.
B: provides mobility to get them where they need to be.
C: They can combat squad as mentioned.
D: It draws anti-armour fire towards that, rather than something important.

Tau make great use of their fish for the mobility and the increased life span.
Sure, they have S5 30" weapons, but thats not much use once they get shot or something pops up next to them.

Same reason people use raiders for DE.
Yes, it is a fast moving vehicle for getting units into assault, its also a fast moving vehicle for moving them to safety.

To be fair, there is nothing safe about a Raider. lol.

AV10 vs T3 5+

Its a close call granted, but its amazing how long raiders have gone in games before being popped.
Ive actually had one last the whole game lol. (i generally run them with prows and go for a ram once the lance is stripped off)

spaceXjam wrote:i think about this allot mostly when i see things like this:

10 man tactical squad with missile launcher and flamer..in rhino

why oh why do all these noobs put heavy weapons in rhinos it makes no sense... and to take it even futher i would call anyone who puts a space marine tactical squad in a rhino a noob. space marine squads are shooty not about trying to CC the enemy stay at 24 inch range and shot wait for them to come to you...

when you do need a rhino is when you have veterans with power weapons and plasma/meltaguns

same for imperial guard players who take 2-4 chimeras in a 1500 point game its just stupid why do you want ur little guys moved up close at the enemy? maybe if you had ogryns or storm troopers but then again you would deep strike them... or a squad with a few melta guns maybe...

people dont think of the real use of their characters if your guy has a bolter or lasgun he shouldnt be in CC.

There's so much wrong here it hurts a little bit.

Tac squads in Rhinos absolutely have their place. Show me the boltgun that will pen AV11. None? Now show me the boltgun that will kill a T4 W1 Sv3+ model. All of them if I fail the save?
The Rhino doesn't have to move. And if it doesn't, that missile launcher can fire all it wants.

As for IG - part of the argument is the same (survivability) but also - even if you never embark in it a Chimera is a decent mobile gun platform. Saying it's "just stupid" is wrong.

I know, my wife plays Dark Eldar and I feel so bad for her Raiders.. Plus I do not know about elsewhere but a common phenomenon at my LGS is Dark Lances for some reason almost never work. She has fielded a list with I think 20+ and had 3 hit. and only one do damage.
However in another game, I popped everyone of her raiders on turn 1 and she still won the game.

My lances usually get the job done fairly quick and by turn 2 there is no armour left on the field.
However, ive had my fair share of poor lance shots.

Dont feel bad
Raiders are like gotz, they will die quickly and it is more than expected.
But if that lance can immobilise something or better before that happens, then great.
Failing that, kamakazi raiders are more than amusing when they smash into a razorback and both blow up, or the very very rare chance that theraider survives lol.

Rhinos are good. Unless you need them to guard a Objective take a rhino.

hotsauceman1 wrote:Rhinos are good. Unless you need them to guard a Objective take a rhino.

Especially if you need them to guard an objective take a rhino. Park it and wait. The important weapons in your squad can still fire out of it and now they are armored. beyond their own armor. If it blows up FINE! Some will die, the rest, might get pinned, but then they get a cover save! (If they were not already in terrain.

I mostly get people who say the following aren't in my list:

Battlesuits
rhinos/transports
khorne berzerkers
demon prince(s)
Kustom force fields
full wound allocation nobs
battlewagons/trukks
vulkan
minimum tactical squads/other troops
predators/devestators

I show them I don't need those. I use the following were people go "whats that?" or "that's not worth it"

Representing:
Vespid
Kroot
Stealth suits
Ethereal
5 man deffkoptas with just rokkits
shokk attack guns
weird boys
demon weapons
possessed
CSM dreads
standard CSM
raptors
thunderfire cannons
bike armies
landspeeders

Iranna wrote:

spaceXjam wrote:i think about this allot mostly when i see things like this:

10 man tactical squad with missile launcher and flamer..in rhino

why oh why do all these noobs put heavy weapons in rhinos it makes no sense... .

It actually makes perfect sense:

A) it increases their survivability

B) In non-KP games (i.e 2/3 times) the squad can be combat-squaded allowing more scoring units and a missile launcher backfield for fire-support and a flamer running about in a rhino upfield.

Iranna.

Also note that for the price of nothing you lose 1rapid fire boltgun shot for the potential of a str8 ap3 shot or a str 4 ap 5 template.......

Getting a bit off-topic guys.

Back to the OP, all a list needs to succeed is redundant tools with which to handle any threat that comes its way. A way to deal with AV 10 spam, a way to deal with AV 14, a way to deal with Green Tide, a way to deal with MEQ, a way to deal with GEQ. Multiple ways to deal with all of these things, because casualties are inevitable and if you only have one unit that can scratch a land-raider, that vehicle is going to operate with impunity when your opponent blows your countermeasure off the board.

A lot of new players make the mistakes of not including those vital tools, in which case it truly is their list that fails them. However, you don't need your generic internet power-player list to succeed. You just need a list that has all the ability to cover all its bases.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

spaceXjam wrote:i think about this allot mostly when i see things like this:

10 man tactical squad with missile launcher and flamer..in rhino

why oh why do all these noobs put heavy weapons in rhinos it makes no sense... and to take it even futher i would call anyone who puts a space marine tactical squad in a rhino a noob. space marine squads are shooty not about trying to CC the enemy stay at 24 inch range and shot wait for them to come to you...

when you do need a rhino is when you have veterans with power weapons and plasma/meltaguns

same for imperial guard players who take 2-4 chimeras in a 1500 point game its just stupid why do you want ur little guys moved up close at the enemy? maybe if you had ogryns or storm troopers but then again you would deep strike them... or a squad with a few melta guns maybe...

people dont think of the real use of their characters if your guy has a bolter or lasgun he shouldnt be in CC.

...OR, you could drive them up to rapid fire range. Or use the Rhinos to get to objectives. Hell, why would you think of CC when you think of a Rhino to begin with? It ain't an assault vehicle. That post just seemed... Highly uneducated.

i disagree. why would you ever want ur guardsmen or marine swithin 12 of a enemy... they are going to be close combat range next turn which will suck. and also my reasoning is that why would you want to pay points for models only to put them in a transport for 2-3 turns :S makes no sense id rather be shooting with them and spending points from the transport on heavy support

spaceXjam wrote:i disagree. why would you ever want ur guardsmen or marine swithin 12 of a enemy... they are going to be close combat range next turn which will suck.

Dude, you've really got to lighten up if your understanding of the game is so currently tenuous. Guardsmen and marines both really shine in close range firefights, and both armies are plenty capable of handling close combat. In any case it's also very possible to move transports in such a way as to make close combat much less of a threat.

If you really want to know why people are disagreeing with you, though, I'd start by not assuming that everyone who doesn't share your opinion is a noob that deserves to be crushed, and take a more supplicatory tone.

spaceXjam wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

spaceXjam wrote:i think about this allot mostly when i see things like this:

10 man tactical squad with missile launcher and flamer..in rhino

why oh why do all these noobs put heavy weapons in rhinos it makes no sense... and to take it even futher i would call anyone who puts a space marine tactical squad in a rhino a noob. space marine squads are shooty not about trying to CC the enemy stay at 24 inch range and shot wait for them to come to you...

when you do need a rhino is when you have veterans with power weapons and plasma/meltaguns

same for imperial guard players who take 2-4 chimeras in a 1500 point game its just stupid why do you want ur little guys moved up close at the enemy? maybe if you had ogryns or storm troopers but then again you would deep strike them... or a squad with a few melta guns maybe...

people dont think of the real use of their characters if your guy has a bolter or lasgun he shouldnt be in CC.

...OR, you could drive them up to rapid fire range. Or use the Rhinos to get to objectives. Hell, why would you think of CC when you think of a Rhino to begin with? It ain't an assault vehicle. That post just seemed... Highly uneducated.

i disagree. why would you ever want ur guardsmen or marine swithin 12 of a enemy... they are going to be close combat range next turn which will suck. and also my reasoning is that why would you want to pay points for models only to put them in a transport for 2-3 turns :S makes no sense id rather be shooting with them and spending points from the transport on heavy support

So they can rapid-fire their bolters and start cuttin'! I'm not afraid to get into CC, most of the time, if I can get off a solid round of rapid firing first. It's one thing if you're doing that to genestealers, because if even two or three of them get their charge, the entire tactical squad is gonna go down. But against something like gaunts, or plain old boyz, I'm not afraid of them. They'll get off their charge, take out a few of my guys, and then I'll mop up. I'll still have seven or so models left, and that entire unit just went down. What makes SM in general a close-range shooty army is that they have an exellent primary ranged weapon in the bolter, but a half-way decent statline as well. They can get into rapid-fire range where they're pure dynamite, without having to worry about them dying to papercuts in CC (*coughcoughTaucough*).

By the way, there's no mathhammer there, all ballpark estimates and... Really, just me stating my observations. Nothing statistical about it.

Back on topic, there definitely is a population of players who copy a list, have no idea WHY that list is successful, and play it wrong. And of course, you always get the whiners who want something to blame. But in general, building lists is part of learning how to play, so the quality of a list is bound to go upwards alongside the quality of the player. Not guaranteed; there definitely are people who are just better players than they are list-writers. But generally, you can expect the trend.

When I read the title I thought it meant, like, "It's not YOUR list" vs. "It's MY list". Like, stop trying to tell me what to do with my list, it's not your list. Like,
Person A: Dude, you should put some more razorbacks in your list
Person B: It's not your list. It's my list to do whatever I want with

I know now after reading the thread that that's not what you meant

ditto the above, i thought it was a matter of ownership...but i see it's more a matter of practice vs pasting.

and i have to say, i think playing is the only way to build lists, get a few things that are cool (to you) and throw winning out the window, play whatever you got however you like...after a few games things start turning on like light bulbs. If a unit performs horribly i don't chuck it out, i play it again...but in a different way, i think gee that really sucked, but lets try it like this...or wait no next game i'll do it like this...and after a while of playing, that totally hopeless unit finds it's niche in your game. Alot of the time i find that it's the units people are not expecting, but through alot of games you have discovered (dice willing) that in a certain number and used for a specific purpose against a specific target, oh wow this unit is alot of fun. and i have see at least that often the best way to use a unit is not the way it is written on paper i.e it's statline or the ability it posses.

i don't think you can ever have "the list" it will always change and always find new ways to be played, but to find a good core for your army/list will take playing the game alot, and thats how you have fun, you can watch your army grow, change develop and even see how you yourself progress to new levels of understanding. that has always been much more fascinating to me then plugging in a set parameter fro success.

It was fun crushing the influx of SW Razorspam lists with my own SW list that is was based on Rhino rushing 10 man GH units backed by minimal Long Fangs and TWC.

The supposed superior list in the hands of an idiot will not be superior.