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The problem with the Vexilla Defensor is that the unit has to be wholly within 9". Shouldn't be too hard, but it stops you from daisy-chaining the conscripts as bubble wrap.

Conscripts got a hammer to the knees last year. All they're good for now is bubble wrapping (debatable as the larger squads lose more to morale, worse armor, and order-inefficiency that messes up GBITF/Fix bayonets/whatever) and being an efficient target for buffs compared to 10-man infantry squads unless you consolidate infantry for 1CP

You also cannot consolidate Conscripts, only Infantry Squads.

9" bubble decent tank/mech wrap. Thinking rush with transports. Idea is to present opponents with too many wound targets within 12" hopefully by turn 2.

Green recruits too wet behind the ears to shoot the broadside of an ork anyways. Makes sense they don't consolidate.

Any thoughts on the rumour that IG Infantry Squads will go up to 5pts in March?

 vipoid wrote:
Any thoughts on the rumour that IG Infantry Squads will go up to 5pts in March?

It's a sourceless rumor that couldn't be supported after 13+ pages of repeated requests for sources interspersed between ranting and whining.

I would genuinely not lose sleep about it until March. A just world would have seen the thread locked after about the 3-4th post.

Really hope they put infantry at 5-6 pints and manticore at 175 so people can stfu and stop whining at me

gendoikari87 wrote:
Really hope they put infantry at 5-6 pints and manticore at 175 so people can stfu and stop whining at me

I remember when people said that about conscripts going up to 4 points and commissars getting nerfed.

AM didn't exactly dominate Cancon or LVOs top tables enough to warrant too many nerfs. Especially not to Infantry squads which are AMs bread and butter (them and tanks)

As with all rumours I'll believe it when I see it.

CaptainO wrote:
AM didn't exactly dominate Cancon or LVOs top tables enough to warrant too many nerfs. Especially not to Infantry squads which are AMs bread and butter (them and tanks)

As with all rumours I'll believe it when I see it.

Note that every top imperium list barring one had significant guard presence in LVO. Guard are facilitating pretty much every competitive imperium combo by adding in what every imperial faction lacks. That is to say, at minimum, effective mass of cheap bodies.

Dark reapers (or ynnari) are almost assuredly on the nerf bat as well.

It sucks that these soup armies could cause us yet more nerfs. Especially when considering we've had how many nerfs hit so many of our units and yet we STILL need some things FAQd and rules cleared up!

Well the thing is as long as soup exists and we're the cheapest troops out there we're going to continue to have our points jacked up. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if IG infantry squads went up to 5pts a model. This won't change until the imperium gets some other cheap source of screening infantry and command points. In order to "fix" the situation you either need to Nerf IG into the ground or completely change how allies work. A lot of the proposed fixes don't even work because people are happy to take IG as the warlord or parent detachment since other codexes use so few spots compared to is.

Granted I'm not super salty if Infantry squads go up to 5 per man, I feel thats a fair price for them, but it does feel like we're being punished for other codexes' actions. And after seeing the thread that shall not be named, I'm pretty sure some folks won't be happy until we have to return to the dark days of 7th where I needed 200 infantry just to survive to turn 3, let alone fight.

It's a rough situation and even if that rumored Nerf happens it will do little to stop the great salt mines. People will just find something else to complain about, like russe's or manticores.

I'm not going to be hurt that much by the 5 pts infantry in my lists, but for all the internet claims about how they're being used, the cheapest per model imperial unit is going to continue to be taken until it is nerfed into not being the cheapest anymore.

They fill a needed role and there's no drawback to taking them. When infantry and conscripts are both 9 points per model, we'll probably start to see something else get spammed. Regardless, something will get spammed because you HAVE to have a screen. All it's doing is changing what is the thing that gets spammed and how much the cost of the unit is. It'll be Scouts or Mechanicus as easily as it'll be infantry if they were just the cheapest thing.

A more reasonable thing to do would be to pull the plug on soup OR un-feth deep strike. Seriously. The only natural conclusion to the game at this point is at least one of the following:
1. Kill soup altogether.
2. If not make deep strike scatter, at least make it a random turn to come on.
3. Make all guard a minimum of 9 points per model.


But all this is why we can't have nice things.

GW made command points and strategems awesome. If you can't bring these awesome points and strategems, your army is flatly weaker than one who has them. Thus, armies with expensive troops options suck. So everyone allies in cheaper troops or cheaper brigades to make the awesome strategems work. Astra Militarum is just the best thing in the IMPERIUM for getting CP and screens on the board. Every other IMPERIUM list is made better by 210-300 points of guard battalion. If GW wants to somehow balance this, I would lean towards further cost cutting on crappy troops options and inferior HQ choices. The problem isn't just the cheap troops either. Space marine HQs are much more costly than the 30 point company commander.

Actually, I think the 30 point company commander who gives out two orders a turn is actually the real balance problem. He makes all other IMPERIUM HQs look like junk.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Well the thing is as long as soup exists and we're the cheapest troops out there we're going to continue to have our points jacked up. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if IG infantry squads went up to 5pts a model. This won't change until the imperium gets some other cheap source of screening infantry and command points. In order to "fix" the situation you either need to Nerf IG into the ground or completely change how allies work. A lot of the proposed fixes don't even work because people are happy to take IG as the warlord or parent detachment since other codexes use so few spots compared to is.

Granted I'm not super salty if Infantry squads go up to 5 per man, I feel thats a fair price for them, but it does feel like we're being punished for other codexes' actions. And after seeing the thread that shall not be named, I'm pretty sure some folks won't be happy until we have to return to the dark days of 7th where I needed 200 infantry just to survive to turn 3, let alone fight.

It's a rough situation and even if that rumored Nerf happens it will do little to stop the great salt mines. People will just find something else to complain about, like russe's or manticores.

The problem with nerfing allies doesn't make other codexes more likely to appear, it simply makes it so that people take mono guard instead. Guard is the best single army in the game. If you eliminate allies, or greatly greatly reduce your ability to take them, it just inflates guard's strength. Chaos lives and dies on its army composition, and I don't think Eldar will work half as well without the half and half alaitoc half ynnari force. Guard don't need a smash captain or a bunch of wolf lords surfing thunder wolves to be great, but wolf lords and smash captains sort of do need guard to work.

stratigo wrote:

The problem with nerfing allies doesn't make other codexes more likely to appear, it simply makes it so that people take mono guard instead. Guard is the best single army in the game. If you eliminate allies, or greatly greatly reduce your ability to take them, it just inflates guard's strength. Chaos lives and dies on its army composition, and I don't think Eldar will work half as well without the half and half alaitoc half ynnari force. Guard don't need a smash captain or a bunch of wolf lords surfing thunder wolves to be great, but wolf lords and smash captains sort of do need guard to work.

Doubtful guard would be stomping eldar all that much better if the 1 ynnear dark reaper squad would instead be 3rd or nth alaitoc dark reaper squad.

stratigo wrote:

CaptainO wrote:
AM didn't exactly dominate Cancon or LVOs top tables enough to warrant too many nerfs. Especially not to Infantry squads which are AMs bread and butter (them and tanks)

As with all rumours I'll believe it when I see it.

Note that every top imperium list barring one had significant guard presence in LVO. Guard are facilitating pretty much every competitive imperium combo by adding in what every imperial faction lacks. That is to say, at minimum, effective mass of cheap bodies.

Dark reapers (or ynnari) are almost assuredly on the nerf bat as well.

Ya you're right. The majority of top tables were under the banner of Blood angels and Ynnari but it makes sense the blood angels were supplemented by infantry squad bubble wrap. Could some post a link if they know where to find the top army lists from Cancon and LVO please. I think the majority of people here prefer to run (almost) pure AM. If the top armies were Blood angel and AM soup I'd be interested to see how one could change out the blood angel parts with AM equivalents.

One suggestion to combat the soup situation in competitive would be to create Primary and secondary factions and set points limits for each. Maybe a 1600/400 split. The larger faction keyword (Imperium, Chaos, Eldar and...Misc Xenos ) would allow factions to be in the same army while the "smaller" faction keyword would be the one effected by the ratios. It would seem a pity to lose our ability to take assassins and inquisitors. Also the removal of "soup" would be far more damaging to chaos. I'm just spit balling here mind.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Well the thing is as long as soup exists and we're the cheapest troops out there we're going to continue to have our points jacked up. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if IG infantry squads went up to 5pts a model. This won't change until the imperium gets some other cheap source of screening infantry and command points. In order to "fix" the situation you either need to Nerf IG into the ground or completely change how allies work. A lot of the proposed fixes don't even work because people are happy to take IG as the warlord or parent detachment since other codexes use so few spots compared to is.

Granted I'm not super salty if Infantry squads go up to 5 per man, I feel thats a fair price for them, but it does feel like we're being punished for other codexes' actions. And after seeing the thread that shall not be named, I'm pretty sure some folks won't be happy until we have to return to the dark days of 7th where I needed 200 infantry just to survive to turn 3, let alone fight.

It's a rough situation and even if that rumored Nerf happens it will do little to stop the great salt mines. People will just find something else to complain about, like russe's or manticores.

Sorry to beak it to you but skitarii vanguard are cheaper per unit troops now since chapter approved. (Still wouldn't take them as price isnt the only factor. Also the only reason to take an AM warlord is the grand strategist warlord trait nerf that and you would see fewer AM warlords


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CaptainO wrote:

stratigo wrote:

CaptainO wrote:
AM didn't exactly dominate Cancon or LVOs top tables enough to warrant too many nerfs. Especially not to Infantry squads which are AMs bread and butter (them and tanks)

As with all rumours I'll believe it when I see it.

Note that every top imperium list barring one had significant guard presence in LVO. Guard are facilitating pretty much every competitive imperium combo by adding in what every imperial faction lacks. That is to say, at minimum, effective mass of cheap bodies.

Dark reapers (or ynnari) are almost assuredly on the nerf bat as well.

Ya you're right. The majority of top tables were under the banner of Blood angels and Ynnari but it makes sense the blood angels were supplemented by infantry squad bubble wrap. Could some post a link if they know where to find the top army lists from Cancon and LVO please. I think the majority of people here prefer to run (almost) pure AM. If the top armies were Blood angel and AM soup I'd be interested to see how one could change out the blood angel parts with AM equivalents.

One suggestion to combat the soup situation in competitive would be to create Primary and secondary factions and set points limits for each. Maybe a 1600/400 split. The larger faction keyword (Imperium, Chaos, Eldar and...Misc Xenos ) would allow factions to be in the same army while the "smaller" faction keyword would be the one effected by the ratios. It would seem a pity to lose our ability to take assassins and inquisitors. Also the removal of "soup" would be far more damaging to chaos. I'm just spit balling here mind.

There never going to do that because allies are part of the game.

It happily lets everyone takes guard as an ally

However it denies the weaker choices of Custodes and Ik

I totally get that allies are part of the game. I'm just suggesting an alternative to increasing the points of Infantry squads. Guard has always been about large bodies of men and tanks. An increase in points would change that (all be it slightly) within pure AM armies.

Sorry to beak it to you but skitarii vanguard are cheaper per unit troops now since chapter approved. (Still wouldn't take them as price isnt the only factor. Also the only reason to take an AM warlord is the grand strategist warlord trait nerf that and you would see fewer AM warlords

Not on a per model basis though. People like IG squads because they cover more ground for the points. Vanguard are double the price of a guardsman right now which means that you will have half the bodies to screen with before wargear is even taken into account.

The only reason scouts compete is because they scout and push out deepstrikers, but even then you'll probably still want guardsmen to deal with assault units that just run toward you the old fashioned way.

You cannot balance units in the game currently due to the way armies are constructed. In order to make guardsmen and conscripts less useful in imperial soup they are on the road to making them garbage for an actual guard army. IMHO the easiuest fix to faction mixing abuse is to simply add a rule for matched play that makes a player forfeit ALL stratagems from any faction is their ARMY is not single faction. Suddenly if you want to abuse bubbles and keywords you have to give something else up.

 Red Corsair wrote:
You cannot balance units in the game currently due to the way armies are constructed. In order to make guardsmen and conscripts less useful in imperial soup they are on the road to making them garbage for an actual guard army. IMHO the easiuest fix to faction mixing abuse is to simply add a rule for matched play that makes a player forfeit ALL stratagems from any faction is their ARMY is not single faction. Suddenly if you want to abuse bubbles and keywords you have to give something else up.

You might not even have to go that far. Limiting the stratagem and relic use to, for example, the Warlord's faction; or a system that decided "main faction" by points as a percentage of the total points and that restricted stratagems - either would work to limit soup abuse. IDK - the allies thing is part of what makes 8th fun, but I agree that the abuses shouldn't be solved by penalizing guard by bumping prices on the standard guardsman.

Has anybody played around with pure infantry lately? I'm thinking about trying it at a 1500 tournament tomorrow. The meta has no shortage of mortal wounds and high powered anti-tank, so I think going all infantry is an interesting skew.

My list:

Cadian battalion
Creed
CC

Ratlings x5
Ratlings x5

4x Infantry with plasma
2x Infantry with las/plas

3x Heavy weapon squads with heavy bolter x2, lascannon

Cadian Spearhead
CC
Tempestor prime

SCion Command, plasma x4

Infantry las/plas
Scions x10, Plasma x4
Scions x10, Plasma x4

4x HWS, mortarx2, lascannon
HWS, mortar, Heavy bolter, lascannon
HWS, Heavy Bolter x2, Lascannon

Basically, spam heavy weapons with Born soldiers/Take aim, use mortars to hit fast/hiding units, use scions for spot removal, and grind out games.

Polonius, I think you need 3 fast attack units and 3 elites to fill out a brigade.

The biggest benefit to tanks that I've found is the ability to shoot the leman russ twice while being mostly immune from small arms fire. However, being able to take more guns for a smaller price probably compensates for this. The hassle of moving more units has its own costs though.

bogalubov wrote:
Polonius, I think you need 3 fast attack units and 3 elites to fill out a brigade.

The biggest benefit to tanks that I've found is the ability to shoot the leman russ twice while being mostly immune from small arms fire. However, being able to take more guns for a smaller price probably compensates for this. The hassle of moving more units has its own costs though.

Shoot, I meant a battalion. I changed the post.

@Polonius

I feel like you have a bit of a missed opportunity with those Scions missing out on the stormtrooper doctrine. I know you're going for pure infantry, and that's basically the only way you can get those heavies, but it seems like a waste.

That being said, I think it's a list that will throw people for a loop, and I'm interested to see how it plays out. I do Mordian, so I typically autoinclude 60 infantry with plasma (and plasma pistol) and it's always worked out well for me. They might not still be standing by the end of the game, but usually neither is the enemy.

 daedalus wrote:
@Polonius

I feel like you have a bit of a missed opportunity with those Scions missing out on the stormtrooper doctrine. I know you're going for pure infantry, and that's basically the only way you can get those heavies, but it seems like a waste.

That being said, I think it's a list that will throw people for a loop, and I'm interested to see how it plays out. I do Mordian, so I typically autoinclude 60 infantry with plasma (and plasma pistol) and it's always worked out well for me. They might not still be standing by the end of the game, but usually neither is the enemy.

The Scion trait only works under half range and on 6's. It just doesn't feel impactful enough to me to be worth running them in a separate detachment.

as an aside, guard infantry could just, legitimately, be too cheap at 4 points per model. Guard infantry, regardless of anything else, are actually just really good. They're one of the best troop choices in the game.

Ordana wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
@Polonius

I feel like you have a bit of a missed opportunity with those Scions missing out on the stormtrooper doctrine. I know you're going for pure infantry, and that's basically the only way you can get those heavies, but it seems like a waste.

That being said, I think it's a list that will throw people for a loop, and I'm interested to see how it plays out. I do Mordian, so I typically autoinclude 60 infantry with plasma (and plasma pistol) and it's always worked out well for me. They might not still be standing by the end of the game, but usually neither is the enemy.

The Scion trait only works under half range and on 6's. It just doesn't feel impactful enough to me to be worth running them in a separate detachment.

Why wouldnt you run them in another detachment? You lose nothing, and usually gain CP's and firepower for free. It's not like we struggle to fill slots. Besides, those Stormtroopers will often be dropping within half range anyways, and with 4 plasma guns you're guaranteed to get at least one more shot. Taking the trait essentially means you get 5 plasma guns in every squad.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Ordana wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
@Polonius

I feel like you have a bit of a missed opportunity with those Scions missing out on the stormtrooper doctrine. I know you're going for pure infantry, and that's basically the only way you can get those heavies, but it seems like a waste.

That being said, I think it's a list that will throw people for a loop, and I'm interested to see how it plays out. I do Mordian, so I typically autoinclude 60 infantry with plasma (and plasma pistol) and it's always worked out well for me. They might not still be standing by the end of the game, but usually neither is the enemy.

The Scion trait only works under half range and on 6's. It just doesn't feel impactful enough to me to be worth running them in a separate detachment.

Why wouldnt you run them in another detachment? You lose nothing, and usually gain CP's and firepower for free. It's not like we struggle to fill slots. Besides, those Stormtroopers will often be dropping within half range anyways, and with 4 plasma guns you're guaranteed to get at least one more shot. Taking the trait essentially means you get 5 plasma guns in every squad.

It's slightly better than one in 6 as well since the rerolled ones get a second chance at triggering a six.

A pure Scion battalion with 3x troops with 2xPG/PP, 2x CCS with 4xPG, and 2x T Primes with Command Rods is 500 points. The only reason I stopped running it was because ITC punishes small low toughness units so much you basically give your opponent 3-6 VP just by dropping them in.

When I ran pure infantry guard, I only used full on mortar heavy weapons squads. Because with no armored vehicles to be shot at, your opponent will simply fire all their lascannons at your heavy weapons squads. Now, it's not that bad considering it takes a minimum of 3 lascannons with decent rolls to do it. But it is a consideration.