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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Chopstick wrote:
No lesson to be learned, these are written by multiple staffs on paycheck, not one mastermind rule writer with a vision

Also more books = profit.


GW's bread is buttered on models, not books.

Free rules get more models sold
   
Made in us
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot




Oakland, CA

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Shame that the FFG games folded. I can totally see a great Necromunda RPG coming from them.

It would be easy to run a Necromunda RPG with Cubicle 7's 40K Wrath & Glory RPG.

IMO, better core system than FFG's, but that's a matter of taste.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/26 06:38:00


 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 Toofast wrote:
I love Newcromunda, my only issue is how split up the rules still are. You should be able to play with the rulebook and your gang book. Instead you still need other books for the market/black market etc.


Yeah that's a bummer, but you can definitely play a campaign just by using Rulebook + House of gang. Play WYSIWYG and you won't need the market anyway, wargear lists from gang books will be enough.

 
   
Made in es
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






 Blackie wrote:
 Toofast wrote:
I love Newcromunda, my only issue is how split up the rules still are. You should be able to play with the rulebook and your gang book. Instead you still need other books for the market/black market etc.


Yeah that's a bummer, but you can definitely play a campaign just by using Rulebook + House of gang. Play WYSIWYG and you won't need the market anyway, wargear lists from gang books will be enough.

Honestly? Even that is 100% more books than you should need for a game like this.... not even taking into account you're removing even some basic parts like having the market.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 schoon wrote:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Shame that the FFG games folded. I can totally see a great Necromunda RPG coming from them.

It would be easy to run a Necromunda RPG with Cubicle 7's 40K Wrath & Glory RPG.

IMO, better core system than FFG's, but that's a matter of taste.


Yeah, the core system is not one of the problems of W&G

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/26 07:58:59


 
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





Market isn't needed for Newcromunda. Only for veteran players who want complete freedom in how to equip their fighters regardless of their house lists.

That's why it being in another expansion book isn't really a surprise to me.

Saying it's necessary to play is like saying you need Crusade books to play your army in 40k. You don't. Only if you want to play the Crusade options other than in your codex, that's all.

For new players, there's no need to tell them to buy books they won't need to use at the start (Market isn't available when you create your band, after all). It's a deformation from veteran players who want to plan how to equip their fighters after their games and optimize their choices in a very competitive way of the game. It's not necessary as well for playing, mind you. You can also optimize without the market at all - just a different way of optimisation. You can even make a campaign without (gasp!) the market at all !

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/26 08:42:46


 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 Albertorius wrote:

Honestly? Even that is 100% more books than you should need for a game like this.... not even taking into account you're removing even some basic parts like having the market.


Rulebook + faction book isn't unreasonable. And in faction book there's plenty of stuff for the market, definitely all the basic parts. Only things that are missed are some invisible upgrades or weapons that don't have official bitz, so available only through conversions or proxy. I firmly believe that the wargear/options included in faction books are more than enough for a campaign, there's already a lot of stuff to choose from for a skirmish game involving a handful of models.

In fact I'm even against removing restrictions from house lists. Van saar with bolt weapons, goliath with lasguns... all heresy in my mind .

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/26 08:44:06


 
   
Made in gb
Fanatic with Madcap Mushrooms







stratigo wrote:
Chopstick wrote:
No lesson to be learned, these are written by multiple staffs on paycheck, not one mastermind rule writer with a vision

Also more books = profit.


GW's bread is buttered on models, not books.

Free rules get more models sold


I think that is changing rapidly and getting implemented across the board.

40k, and AoS and now Necromunda have the one faction one book plus the other books required for campaigns and rules.
In the bigger systems the dexes cover several regiment boxes and heroes etc while on Necromunda is more visible since we have one house books just for a couple of box sets.
Thing is for you to do one 40k army you are going to take a long time with say 50 -100 minis with Necromunda its around 20 so a lot faster and soon you will be looking at other gangs at witch point you dont go for because theres more books to buy.
Its not the models alone that are bringing GW the money in Necromunda but the books too.

So I do agree that the rules should be free or really cheap, maybe downloads etc But GW prefers to sell you 2 or 3 books for £30 each as entry point which is harsh.

Another question is why do the books cost more than the models?




   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





 NAVARRO wrote:

Another question is why do the books cost more than the models?


You didn't see the current problems with very specific materials to make books worldwide, did you.

Besides, GW sells anything they can with their label on it. It includes books as well. GW doesn't sell just models : they also sell games. Rules have a monetary value too.

Sure, they can make it "free" anytime. Turns out they don't so far. By the way, "free rules" doesn't mean "more model sales" at all. To me, the real difficulty for bringing new players isn't really the cost of books...it's more about getting lost in a ton of rules, many that are actually optional. Them being free or not doesn't change the fact there are a lot to take into account as you play (for example, not being surprised when a grenade launcher starts to fire in your grouped band in cover...)
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







Because they are priced as luxury items, amd therefore GW has made some kind of calculation as to how much the market can withstand to get into and sustain a game. So you need a couple of books for £30 each and at least one box of minis for about the same price. Equivalent to a boxed board game of a similar theme going for £100. Lots of them about. And in the grand scheme of things, £100 for a hobby is pretty cheap compared to golf or cycling or cocaine addiction.

And the benefit to GW is that they make it a bit vague and therefore increase the likelihood of players and collectors buying the other books and stuff as expansions.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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Made in gb
Fanatic with Madcap Mushrooms







Sarouan wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:

Another question is why do the books cost more than the models?


You didn't see the current problems with very specific materials to make books worldwide, did you.

Besides, GW sells anything they can with their label on it. It includes books as well. GW doesn't sell just models : they also sell games. Rules have a monetary value too.

Sure, they can make it "free" anytime. Turns out they don't so far. By the way, "free rules" doesn't mean "more model sales" at all. To me, the real difficulty for bringing new players isn't really the cost of books...it's more about getting lost in a ton of rules, many that are actually optional. Them being free or not doesn't change the fact there are a lot to take into account as you play (for example, not being surprised when a grenade launcher starts to fire in your grouped band in cover...)


Not aware of the materials shortages? I mean a regiment box comes wrapped in a cutter printed carton, with a printed instructions booklet and 1 or 3 plastic sprues...
Is it the glue bound or hardback?

Well Good and clear free rules means more models sales for sure

   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Even just digitally released rules would be a big step forward. Sadly GW took a big step backwards in this arena.

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"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Fanatic with Madcap Mushrooms







 Flinty wrote:
Because they are priced as luxury items, amd therefore GW has made some kind of calculation as to how much the market can withstand to get into and sustain a game. So you need a couple of books for £30 each and at least one box of minis for about the same price. Equivalent to a boxed board game of a similar theme going for £100. Lots of them about. And in the grand scheme of things, £100 for a hobby is pretty cheap compared to golf or cycling or cocaine addiction.

And the benefit to GW is that they make it a bit vague and therefore increase the likelihood of players and collectors buying the other books and stuff as expansions.


We kind of need to include the terrain to play this since the game really needs it for the best experience.
Starter sets are great in this regards.

   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM




United Kingdom

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Even just digitally released rules would be a big step forward. Sadly GW took a big step backwards in this arena.
Necromunda's books are released digitally (link, but I don't know how up-to-date that rulebook is)
   
Made in au
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

beast_gts wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Even just digitally released rules would be a big step forward. Sadly GW took a big step backwards in this arena.
Necromunda's books are released digitally (link, but I don't know how up-to-date that rulebook is)
Absolutely. I'm more talking about 40k and AoS. AoS had an even bigger step backwards than 40k, with their existing free rules taken away.

The fact that they release full digital books for specialist just shows they can do it, but for some reason have chosen to be anti-consumer when it comes to their two biggest lines.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/26 09:31:37


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Fanatic with Madcap Mushrooms







 H.B.M.C. wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Even just digitally released rules would be a big step forward. Sadly GW took a big step backwards in this arena.
Necromunda's books are released digitally (link, but I don't know how up-to-date that rulebook is)
Absolutely. I'm more talking about 40k and AoS. AoS had an even bigger step backwards than 40k, with their existing free rules taken away.

The fact that they release full digital books for specialist just shows they can do it, but for some reason have chosen to be anti-consumer when it comes to their two biggest lines.




Maybe because the price and amount of books is less visible and noticeable if you have to paint those 100 minis first.
AoS was a good example of the book formula creeping in, from a few page free rules to expensive army books and rulebook.

I think its probably working for GW since they are implementing that here too. Not sure whats going on with Lotr though.
As someone said if thats the price of more gang and Necromunda support from GW then so be it.

Speaking of prices I was looking into buying plasticard A3 to do my own zone mortalis tiles... not cheap at all! Better off with GW tiles which are quite affordable and ready to go. Surprised with that competitive pricing to be honest.

   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Escher Gribbly is up for pre-order.

£24 which doesn’t seem awful. Still steep, but as with the Van Saar ones earlier, a bit less than I was expecting.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

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Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 NAVARRO wrote:


Speaking of prices I was looking into buying plasticard A3 to do my own zone mortalis tiles... not cheap at all! Better off with GW tiles which are quite affordable and ready to go. Surprised with that competitive pricing to be honest.


Yeah, not cheap and really a lot of work. I do love working with plasticard but I don't think it worth the effort for something like that.

Chaper alternatives to the original tiles are only those in MDF, especially if you're based in the UK (looking at TTCombat ones), which is what I ended up with. 3D printed could be ok although, in order to be cheap, the cost of the printer must be split into multiple projects or even people.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/26 10:11:46


 
   
Made in es
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






 Blackie wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:

Honestly? Even that is 100% more books than you should need for a game like this.... not even taking into account you're removing even some basic parts like having the market.


Rulebook + faction book isn't unreasonable. And in faction book there's plenty of stuff for the market, definitely all the basic parts. Only things that are missed are some invisible upgrades or weapons that don't have official bitz, so available only through conversions or proxy. I firmly believe that the wargear/options included in faction books are more than enough for a campaign, there's already a lot of stuff to choose from for a skirmish game involving a handful of models.

In fact I'm even against removing restrictions from house lists. Van saar with bolt weapons, goliath with lasguns... all heresy in my mind .


Not entirely. But there's simply no good reason not to include it in the core book, it's not even a big one, FFS.
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






Columbus, Oh

Is it just me doing wonky math, but that image earlier of the Outcasts, LOOKS like there are 3 sprues with 4 bodies on them for the gang.

That seems a bit of a departure from the 6 bodies, 2 sprues earlier gangs got..

I assume no sprue pics at this time?

2+2=5 for sufficiently large values of 2.

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Made in si
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 DaveC wrote:
Outcast sprue from yaktribe - it's been around for a while so I'm not sure it's been posted here before?



We've had these in the wild for a month, GW was selling Outcasts at some convention by accident

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/11/26 13:18:01


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Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

stratigo wrote:
Chopstick wrote:
No lesson to be learned, these are written by multiple staffs on paycheck, not one mastermind rule writer with a vision

Also more books = profit.


GW's bread is buttered on models, not books.

Free rules get more models sold


Not according to their reasoning for folding Black Industries. At the time, it was supposedly buttered with Black Library.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 NAVARRO wrote:
stratigo wrote:
Chopstick wrote:
No lesson to be learned, these are written by multiple staffs on paycheck, not one mastermind rule writer with a vision

Also more books = profit.


GW's bread is buttered on models, not books.

Free rules get more models sold


I think that is changing rapidly and getting implemented across the board.

40k, and AoS and now Necromunda have the one faction one book plus the other books required for campaigns and rules.
In the bigger systems the dexes cover several regiment boxes and heroes etc while on Necromunda is more visible since we have one house books just for a couple of box sets.
Thing is for you to do one 40k army you are going to take a long time with say 50 -100 minis with Necromunda its around 20 so a lot faster and soon you will be looking at other gangs at witch point you dont go for because theres more books to buy.
Its not the models alone that are bringing GW the money in Necromunda but the books too.

So I do agree that the rules should be free or really cheap, maybe downloads etc But GW prefers to sell you 2 or 3 books for £30 each as entry point which is harsh.

Another question is why do the books cost more than the models?






Look, despite GW's attempts, their rules remain eminently accessible without buying their books. And sometimes not even illegally if my understanding of copyright and mechanics is at all accurate.

You absolutely do not need to buy any of their books. And if they require you to purchase like 5 books for a complete ruleset (and this IS the case in necromunda. All those books add something for every gang), then one has to wonder about the morality of GW's business practices verse finding them elsewhere.


At least necromunda you can still get digitally. Jesus is AoS and 40k being so damn ass backwards on this
   
Made in gb
Fanatic with Madcap Mushrooms







Blackie wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:


Speaking of prices I was looking into buying plasticard A3 to do my own zone mortalis tiles... not cheap at all! Better off with GW tiles which are quite affordable and ready to go. Surprised with that competitive pricing to be honest.


Yeah, not cheap and really a lot of work. I do love working with plasticard but I don't think it worth the effort for something like that.

Chaper alternatives to the original tiles are only those in MDF, especially if you're based in the UK (looking at TTCombat ones), which is what I ended up with. 3D printed could be ok although, in order to be cheap, the cost of the printer must be split into multiple projects or even people.


I have been eyeing MDF for a while, do you think that the tiles, since they are MDF and quite big, will warp with time?
3d Printing is out of my scope of accessible, I dont have one or intend to and neither do my friends, so outsourcing is an expensive and long process furthermore some of the examples I have seen for terrain printing are awful with so many printing lines. Too much hassle.

stratigo wrote:
Spoiler:
 NAVARRO wrote:
stratigo wrote:
Chopstick wrote:
No lesson to be learned, these are written by multiple staffs on paycheck, not one mastermind rule writer with a vision

Also more books = profit.


GW's bread is buttered on models, not books.

Free rules get more models sold


I think that is changing rapidly and getting implemented across the board.

40k, and AoS and now Necromunda have the one faction one book plus the other books required for campaigns and rules.
In the bigger systems the dexes cover several regiment boxes and heroes etc while on Necromunda is more visible since we have one house books just for a couple of box sets.
Thing is for you to do one 40k army you are going to take a long time with say 50 -100 minis with Necromunda its around 20 so a lot faster and soon you will be looking at other gangs at witch point you dont go for because theres more books to buy.
Its not the models alone that are bringing GW the money in Necromunda but the books too.

So I do agree that the rules should be free or really cheap, maybe downloads etc But GW prefers to sell you 2 or 3 books for £30 each as entry point which is harsh.

Another question is why do the books cost more than the models?






Look, despite GW's attempts, their rules remain eminently accessible without buying their books. And sometimes not even illegally if my understanding of copyright and mechanics is at all accurate.

You absolutely do not need to buy any of their books. And if they require you to purchase like 5 books for a complete ruleset (and this IS the case in necromunda. All those books add something for every gang), then one has to wonder about the morality of GW's business practices verse finding them elsewhere.


At least necromunda you can still get digitally. Jesus is AoS and 40k being so damn ass backwards on this


I'm not sure what you mean by not buying the books. Are you saying finding alternative rules? because thats exactly what I have done and soon will be landing the 5 parsecs book under the tree.
I find that its acceptable to pay £25 or so for one book with all that I need.

If your saying getting pirated PDFs then errr not my thing. I really dont need rules for a tabletop game that much. The same way I dont like my things pirated I dont support that.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/26 16:35:20


   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran





Make the current starter set rules available for $10 and then you can start playing with the 6 basic boxes this afternoon.
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 NAVARRO wrote:


I have been eyeing MDF for a while, do you think that the tiles, since they are MDF and quite big, will warp with time?



MDF is recommended to be sealed with an appropriate primer before painting it, as it's really sensitive to moisture. Don't use water-based glue to put MDF pieces together either. Once it's sealed and waterproof it won't warp.

 
   
Made in es
Longtime Dakkanaut






review of outcast book. Min 30.40, its an artwork of an ash waste leader?
   
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Book and a market ordered.

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 Albertorius wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:

Honestly? Even that is 100% more books than you should need for a game like this.... not even taking into account you're removing even some basic parts like having the market.


Rulebook + faction book isn't unreasonable. And in faction book there's plenty of stuff for the market, definitely all the basic parts. Only things that are missed are some invisible upgrades or weapons that don't have official bitz, so available only through conversions or proxy. I firmly believe that the wargear/options included in faction books are more than enough for a campaign, there's already a lot of stuff to choose from for a skirmish game involving a handful of models.

In fact I'm even against removing restrictions from house lists. Van saar with bolt weapons, goliath with lasguns... all heresy in my mind .


Not entirely. But there's simply no good reason not to include it in the core book, it's not even a big one, FFS.
Buying a core rulebook and faction book feels logical for e.g. Warhammer. The House Gangs faction books only contain a handful of pages of rules however, plus perhaps a few nice bits of art. I had hoped the expanded background info would make them worth the price, but (in House of Blades at least) it turned out to be particularly poor; as inconsistent as Newcromunda's rules and if possible written even more hastily presumably. I guess so little effort is logical when they rush out books at the rate they do and expect them to have a lifespan of about a year, but still. In hindsight, I wish they had left it at Gangs of the Underhive or a similar compendium. A game like Necromunda shouldn't require more than 1 hardback rulebook (and maybe a little supplement for some expansion or other) to play.
   
Made in au
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Both my stores sold out, unfortunately. Seems the market hot ticket item.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Sprues & Brews wrote:You can choose to have the core of your gang be a Delegation gang! You know those cool delegations available from Forge World such as the Water Guild, the Slaver Guild or the Military Attache? (13 options are listed in the book representing every single entry from across all the House of books) Well now you can use those models as the core of your gang, have them earn experience and skills and operate just like any other gang in the game! This is massive as it massively increases the types of gangs we will see in the game and lets you do some really, really fun stuff! Each of the delegations has a points cost and details what each model represents in terms of gang rank (So for example a Chain Lord becomes your leader, the Shakleman is a champion and the 2 pitfighters are Gangers clocking in at a total of 710 credits) and you can use any remaining credits to purchase Outcast Fighters (The generic Ganger options available in the book) to fill out the rest of the gang. I absolutely love this and I’m already making plans to build a warband for each of these delegations to make the most of the gorgeous models available. Narrative players and converters alike will love the opportunity to be able to do something very very different to the established gangs and make something really fun! Like with a standard leader you still get to give them an affiliation and archetype to represent how they would fight.
Seems we have a winner on our hands with this book.

Sprues & Brews wrote:We get a nice section in the book that contains not only the rules for the new Underhive Market (With some great concepts such as being able to look the stalls – it might have some interesting gear, but equally it might be boobytrapped!) but also the full rules for Gang Strongholds that had previously been included in the Gang Stronghold box – while anyone with a Stronghold already has these rules in the box, it is nice to see them included together here in this terrain section.


Sprues & Brews wrote:
Spoiler:
The next big section of the book is an entirely new campaign that represents various Outcast gangs fighting over new territory and building up their settlements with new building and defensive structures over the first half of the campaign before turning on each other and tearing them down in the second half of the campaign!

This looks really fun and captures the vibe of something like the Fallout videogames where your small rag tag force works to gather resources to improve their fledgling outpost and surrounding territories before their rivals sweep in to take it for themselves!

While it is written around Outcasts on the frontiers of society, you can easily use any other Necromunda Gang in this as there is no reason why one of the houses wouldn’t want to take some of that territory for themselves!

This is a fully fledged campaign with XP charts, injury tables and structures that can be built between games and acts as a nice way of expanding the existing campaign options we have for the game, with the main unique gimmick being the starting choice of territory making it easier/harder to defend/gather resources/expand based on system of balance between three stats of Defence, Resources and Toxicity. This gives a kind of subgame within the campaign where you plan how you want to expand and better your settlement keeping in mind that everything is going to hell in the latter half of the campaign!

The campaign is accompanied by a series of scenarios that geared around the resource gathering half and also the more aggressive and offensive conclusion! We see some fun stuff here such as a fight in a market where either side cannot carry heavy weapons for fear of either getting themselves spotted prior to the ambush or not wanting to destroy their own precious Market! I can already picture the slow motion gunfights as gangers dive between storefronts and boxes of merchandise as the panicked market goers flee in all directions!


Sprues & Brews wrote:In addition to the usual Gang Tactics, weapon profiles and full equipment and gear rules, we also get an expanded Trading Post that finally gives us the full range of weapons available to our fighters along with costs and rarity – Now Games Workshop had previously said that this would be a free download on Warhammer Community, and I do hope that is still the case, however it is good to have this collected in a book for reference purposes.
And thus the final nail in the coffin has been hammered home for Gangs of the Underhive.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/27 11:53:22


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
 
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