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Sorry if I'm digging up an old topic or stirring up any emotions here, but I didn't find any previous threads on this.

I just got back into 40k this year, and knowing that I enjoy the fluff of Chaos, the choice to get me some CSM was a given. Mostly for the painting, but my friends got me into the gaming part of it, and now I'm getting reminded more and more frequently how bad CSM are.

Even the people at my local GW can barely contain their laughs when I tell them that I just got back into it and picked CSM for this edition. A veteran player told me that "the only thing worse than Chaos Space Marines these days are Chaos Daemons!"
It doesn't help that the two people I mainly play against use Space Wolves and Grey Knights, either. GK have digital Jokaero space monkeys that can take down a tank for 35 points, and there is silly fluff to support these stats! My CSM have travelled through the Warp for centuries killing and destroying all they encounter, but on the game table they can't even kill regular Marines. The allure of joining Chaos is the fact that you become more powerful, isn't it!?

And I think "Are these the same guys who took over the Wolf of Fenris?" Clearly not with these stats!


Meh, I still love the fluff so I stick to my CSMs, but do any of you hardcore/competitive players still play them? I haven't come across anyone who does yet.

I think I might adapt a counts as list for Space Wolves or just regular Codex Marines. I hate how lacking in decent options the current codex is.

Still, at least the fluff is ace, something Space Wolves couldn't say.

I don't know any competitive players that do, my friend plays them and he does pretty well with them.

It definitely does hurt that your against to very strong codexs, the GK are just OP(especially if your codex contains the word Daemon for any units), the space wolves love their spam and use it allot. It really depends on how competitive of lists people in your area field, if they are just fielding tournament lists(but for casual games that's overkill unless they are WAAC players) then it can be hard to compete with them. Generally people who field the tournament lists for their army in every game they play don't know there army very well and just put in the models everyone online tells them to, they are generally also not very fun to play with.

I would also argue that Tau are worse than CSM, you at least can assault.

Give it a couple months, apparently one of the first codex to be released after 6th Ed hits will be Chaos Space Marines. I don't know if this is true or not but I've seen a couple threads that mention an October/September(-ish) release, though it maybe sooner as the box set will (again) apparently have Chaos and Dark Angels in it...

EDIT: if you want a competitive list try Nurgleifying/Khorneifying everything and fill it out with infantry, seems to work for me.

Well, my Space Wolf buddy is pretty much a WAAC player. The one who plays GK doesn't know anything about tactics or how to put together a decent list, he just wins by mistake thanks to the GK unique ability to kill everything without dying - ever. Watching them play against each other can be really amusing because of this.

As for myself I'm working on how to get as good an army as possible without having to spam magic or tanks.

I still play them purely for the fluff now, but it feels like i'm actually playing with 10000 year old men who can't work modern day tech, so just sit there while hip young ultra marines drive past, flicking the v's yelling "hey gramps, get with the program already, its called a razorback!"

DrChaos wrote:I still play them purely for the fluff now, but it feels like i'm actually playing with 10000 year old men who can't work modern day tech, so just sit there while hip young ultra marines drive past, flicking the v's yelling "hey gramps, get with the program already, its called a razorback!"

I have a similar feeling. Berzerkers are supposed to be lobotomized maniacs, but they are the only unit in my list that seem to know what they are doing. The rest are more neanderthaly and sluggish and overall "Durr..." to me.

ChaoticBob wrote:

DrChaos wrote:I still play them purely for the fluff now, but it feels like i'm actually playing with 10000 year old men who can't work modern day tech, so just sit there while hip young ultra marines drive past, flicking the v's yelling "hey gramps, get with the program already, its called a razorback!"

I have a similar feeling. Berzerkers are supposed to be lobotomized maniacs, but they are the only unit in my list that seem to know what they are doing. The rest are more neanderthaly and sluggish and overall "Durr..." to me.

To be fair it's not hard to know what your doing when your instructions are "blood for the blood god, skulls for the skull throne".

My buddy's Chaos Marines do just fine. They don't have the rules and gizmos that the newer Space Marines have, but that will change with their next book.

His defiler and Obliterators do a lot of damage, and he usually has 2 squads of berzerkers running around.

Play what you enjoy playing, I guess.

kronk wrote:My buddy's Chaos Marines do just fine. They don't have the rules and gizmos that the newer Space Marines have, but that will change with their next book.

His defiler and Obliterators do a lot of damage, and he usually has 2 squads of berzerkers running around.

Play what you enjoy playing, I guess.

That's pretty much what a friend of mine fields also, usually he throws the berzerkers in land raiders to give them a chance to get to their target, his rhinos mysteriously get shelled by every anti-tank weapon if they carry berzerkers.

Obliterators offer amazing versatility in the CSM heavy support slot.

Berzerkers have a habit of shredding anything in their way, that isn't a dedicated melee unit.

CSM does just fine, it helps to not spam berzerkers since if you can't melee you lose.

ChaoticBob wrote: My CSM have travelled through the Warp for centuries killing and destroying all they encounter, but on the game table they can't even kill regular Marines. The allure of joining Chaos is the fact that you become more powerful, isn't it!?

I have long wondered at the fact that many of the chaos marines today are supposed to have been around since the time of the heresy, but despite all those years of experience they are just a pale shadow when compared to regular SM with their "They shall no know fear" and the like. CSMs should at least have something similar since they spend so much time in the warp and with daemons it is odd that they would break in combat at all really.

That said I still have 3 full Chaos Marine armies that still get regular use: I laligned to Khorne, 1 aligned to Nurgle and 1 aligned to Slaanesh. Khorne gets most of the play, but I enjoy them all for different reasons and they never let me down. People complain a lot about the current CSM codex, but the only part I really dislike about it is that they took all character out of daemons and then when the daemon codex came out didn't do anything to make the daemons there usable with the CSM codex in any way at all. That definitely sucks to take all of the character out of the daemons like that.

Plenty of people scoff, but chaos is still cool in my book...

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:To be fair it's not hard to know what your doing when your instructions are "blood for the blood god, skulls for the skull throne".

Some people do get confused when they seem to think it *only* equates to fighting in melee. I have a massive khorne horde that has a single unit of berserkers in it. The rest are chaos marines with the mark of khorne. Khorne wants blood and skulls, but he doesn't care if they come from the end of a chain axe or through the use of massed firepower. Only stipulation is no psykers. Beyond that anything works.

Skriker

What exactly makes CSM so bad? I've got a friend who plays them (and I've used his army before), and they don't seem to be a weak army at all. Great troops choices, and Ld 9.

I don't really know why people complain so much about this codex.

GalacticDefender wrote:What exactly makes CSM so bad? I've got a friend who plays them (and I've used his army before), and they don't seem to be a weak army at all. Great troops choices, and Ld 9.

I don't really know why people complain so much about this codex.

They complain because it doesn't have the cheesy additions that newer books like the GK or SW lists have, so therefore must be useless. I've not found it to be useless, though. Some people just can't think outside the powergamer box and can't take enjoyment from playing a less than overpowered list that is so mega awesome! Not looking forward to a new chaos book because given codex creep it will be stupid and everyone will want to play them again. I like putting my CSM force on the table and having people mock me for and then watch their faces as I wipe their powergamer army off the table to a man. Tactics and smart planning will almost always beat someone playing a list they *think* is unstoppable...because unstoppable armies are seldom truly unstoppable...

Skriker

Skriker wrote:

ChaoticBob wrote: My CSM have travelled through the Warp for centuries killing and destroying all they encounter, but on the game table they can't even kill regular Marines. The allure of joining Chaos is the fact that you become more powerful, isn't it!?

I have long wondered at the fact that many of the chaos marines today are supposed to have been around since the time of the heresy, but despite all those years of experience they are just a pale shadow when compared to regular SM with their "They shall no know fear" and the like. CSMs should at least have something similar since they spend so much time in the warp and with daemons it is odd that they would break in combat at all really.

Aren't most chaos marines fearless? Other than the "generic" Chaos Space Marines, who're supposed to be "newer" converts.
Now you could argue that Fearless is actually a nerf...and you'd be right. But that's not the codex's fault.

Skriker wrote:

GalacticDefender wrote:What exactly makes CSM so bad? I've got a friend who plays them (and I've used his army before), and they don't seem to be a weak army at all. Great troops choices, and Ld 9.

I don't really know why people complain so much about this codex.

They complain because it doesn't have the cheesy additions that newer books like the GK or SW lists have, so therefore must be useless. I've not found it to be useless, though. Some people just can't think outside the powergamer box and can't take enjoyment from playing a less than overpowered list that is so mega awesome! Not looking forward to a new chaos book because given codex creep it will be stupid and everyone will want to play them again. I like putting my CSM force on the table and having people mock me for and then watch their faces as I wipe their powergamer army off the table to a man. Tactics and smart planning will almost always beat someone playing a list they *think* is unstoppable...because unstoppable armies are seldom truly unstoppable...

Skriker

Generally the "unstoppable" lists hinge on a specific model or unit and the loss of that model stops the list in it's track because the gimmick they were using doesn't work anymore.

Chaos Space Marine:
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 4 4 4 1 4 1 9 3+

Special rules: None.
Advantages: 1 more Ld (meh!), 1 extra CC attack thanks to CCW, Icons of Chaos.

Regular Space Marine:
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 4 4 4 1 4 1 8 3+

Special rules: And they shall know no fear, Combat Squads, Combat Tactics.
Advantages: Teleport Homer, Razorback or Drop Pod dedicated transports, Plasma Cannon.

Chaos Dreadnought.
Special Rule: Crazed.
Advantages: 3 Attacks.

Space Marine Dreadnought.
Special Rule: None.
Advantages: Not Crazed.

These are the only ones I can come up with at the moment because I can't find my codexes. But still, the only Chaosy thing that is really good that SM don't have are the Icons of Chaos, and even those can backfire on you if you're not smart. At least from what I can see. I admit I'm not that well read on the SM codex but they do have more things to choose from than Chaos, and I see that as an advantage. The bad guys shouldn't be the underdogs, I think.

Skriker wrote:

GalacticDefender wrote:What exactly makes CSM so bad? I've got a friend who plays them (and I've used his army before), and they don't seem to be a weak army at all. Great troops choices, and Ld 9.

I don't really know why people complain so much about this codex.

They complain because it doesn't have the cheesy additions that newer books like the GK or SW lists have, so therefore must be useless. I've not found it to be useless, though. Some people just can't think outside the powergamer box and can't take enjoyment from playing a less than overpowered list that is so mega awesome! Not looking forward to a new chaos book because given codex creep it will be stupid and everyone will want to play them again. I like putting my CSM force on the table and having people mock me for and then watch their faces as I wipe their powergamer army off the table to a man. Tactics and smart planning will almost always beat someone playing a list they *think* is unstoppable...because unstoppable armies are seldom truly unstoppable...

Skriker

I don't think it's because we don't have any cheese that people complain, it's more because our previous book was so awesome. When the current dex came out we lost basically all of our cool options and didn't gain a whole lot in return. Sure there are some good things left in the codex (plague marines and oblits immediately spring to mind), but there's also a lot of garbage in it too (possessed, the entire fast attack section). It's just disappointing.

GimbleMuggernaught wrote:

Skriker wrote:

GalacticDefender wrote:What exactly makes CSM so bad? I've got a friend who plays them (and I've used his army before), and they don't seem to be a weak army at all. Great troops choices, and Ld 9.

I don't really know why people complain so much about this codex.

They complain because it doesn't have the cheesy additions that newer books like the GK or SW lists have, so therefore must be useless. I've not found it to be useless, though. Some people just can't think outside the powergamer box and can't take enjoyment from playing a less than overpowered list that is so mega awesome! Not looking forward to a new chaos book because given codex creep it will be stupid and everyone will want to play them again. I like putting my CSM force on the table and having people mock me for and then watch their faces as I wipe their powergamer army off the table to a man. Tactics and smart planning will almost always beat someone playing a list they *think* is unstoppable...because unstoppable armies are seldom truly unstoppable...

Skriker

I don't think it's because we don't have any cheese that people complain, it's more because our previous book was so awesome. When the current dex came out we lost basically all of our cool options and didn't gain a whole lot in return. Sure there are some good things left in the codex (plague marines and oblits immediately spring to mind), but there's also a lot of garbage in it too (possessed, the entire fast attack section). It's just disappointing.

I think that is correct, even if I didn't play the previous edition. But when I play now it's very often a case of "Hey, how come you have all that fancy stuff and I only have this?" because I didn't know what I could've had six years ago.

ChaoticBob wrote:Chaos Space Marine:
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 4 4 4 1 4 1 9 3+

Special rules: None.
Advantages: 1 more Ld (meh!), 1 extra CC attack thanks to CCW, Icons of Chaos.

Regular Space Marine:
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 4 4 4 1 4 1 8 3+

Special rules: And they shall know no fear, Combat Squads, Combat Tactics.
Advantages: Teleport Homer, Razorback or Drop Pod dedicated transports, Plasma Cannon.

Chaos Dreadnought.
Special Rule: Crazed.
Advantages: 3 Attacks.

Space Marine Dreadnought.
Special Rule: None.
Advantages: Not Crazed.

These are the only ones I can come up with at the moment because I can't find my codexes. But still, the only Chaosy thing that is really good that SM don't have are the Icons of Chaos, and even those can backfire on you if you're not smart. At least from what I can see. I admit I'm not that well read on the SM codex but they do have more things to choose from than Chaos, and I see that as an advantage. The bad guys shouldn't be the underdogs, I think.

'

You have to think beyond basics for them. CSM can take squads of 20 guys, they can take 2 special weapons (so 2 melta guns) and all the other special weapon choices in the champion, who makes them leadership 10. The marks are an added bonus that get better the larger the squad, plus the marks themselves act like teleport homers.

As for the dreads, some will call me crazy but I like their crazy rules. Gaining fleet is wonderful, and while fire frenzy is a draw back, I can ignore it with proper positioning and even make my dreads not harm a thing. A dread charging with 5 attacks is a great thing to see. Also chaos dreads are cheaper.

0.o I thought that the crazed special rule was an advantage? For close combat dreadnoughts its a buff because it gets you close, and for shooty ones it lets you get more shots. Admitedly it is the case that you could be rolling fire frenzy for close combat dreads, but the advantage that you get from the special rule every other turn out weigh this once its in assault. You only ever manage to shoot your own men if you don't place them correctly (it only shoots things straight ahead of it....not difficult to adapt to this...ie move your marines after the test has been taken). But yes, in the current edition Chaos has been messed around with a little compared to what it was like previously (at least they had fluff then). =/

If you're playing casually, check out JustDave's Chaos fandex. It has loads of praise, is well balanced, and keeps to the fluff. I'd considered starting an army using this 'dex myself (though costs in doing so prevent it...).

I play Chaos Marines, and while I've lost a lot of games consecutively with them, I do alright with them. My army is pretty grounded though, without any psykers or daemons. I'm looking forward to getting a new codex in a couple months to give them a nice boost though.

Not like Chaos psychic powers are anything to write home about in any case.

I play Chaos, as do a huge contingent of my freinds. Play Chaos for the love of the game rather than just to win. A lot of people wrongly assume that the only pleasure that they can derive from the game is derived from winning. Thus they play BA or Wolves or some other new codex army. If you want to play in a just for fun setting where fluffy lists are the norm, Chaos is just fine.

I also adore the Crazed rule, because it is just so chaotic and fluffy. Much in the same way I like Kharn the Betrayer's "Betrayer" special rule. But I would also like to win at least one game.

If you roll 1 on a Chaos dread it will fire at the closest unit, not just the closest in front of it. So it will turn and blast away things behind it as well if it's close enough. Also even a close combat dread packs at least two twin-linked HBs. So it could still be dangerous to me if I'm unlucky. But I'm still getting two of them just because I like them.

Same thing with Raptors. In the fluff they have decapitating claws and sirens that instill terror in their enemies (like the ww2 Stuka bombers), arcane jump packs and a hardcore fetish for ripping bodies apart! But they're still no better than your average, dull, boring, lap dog loyalist Assault Marines. So for such a fluffy and good-looking unit there's nothing chaotic about them. And that makes me a sad warlord.

I play them, play Tzeentch marks only and take them to tournaments if it helps.

They actually FAQ'd the fire frenzy rule so it's only the units in front of you. Of course in the same process they nerfed warp time.

I play chaos because of the fluff and tend to lose. It might be because I don't use some of the stronger options like obliterators and defilers, but that's my choice and I have More fun throwing the units I like at the enemy, than what people try to dictate me to use

Chaos against GK is a bit of an uphill fight. IG can be a pain on an open table, and Dark Eldar or Eldar are a challenge if you don't make a point of building in good amount of ranged firepower. I rarely lose to SW, though Njal and Arjac can be annoying.

Chaos will be getting a new book soon and no doubt will be awesome and frightening once again, and attract a ton of bandwagon-jumping players who haven't the stones or the skill to win with the current book. One of the charms of the current book is that people dismiss it and don't realize the good stuff it does have. So you stand out more, and to a good extent are playing with house money- if you lose it's expected, when you win you're a badass.

If you have the inclination to keep playing Chaos while awaiting the new books, I can offer a trifle of advice:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330980.page#2174757
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/jforum.page?module=search&action=search&search_keywords=chaos+space+marines&match_type=all&search_author=963&search_titles=0&forum=18&daterange=-1&daterange2=0&sort_by=time&sort_dir=DESC&resulttype=1

Sample army lists with tournament results:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/403073.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/380621.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/336765.page

I also talk about a list very similar to the 2k and how it's used on episode 102 of the 11th company podcast.
http://ec.libsyn.com/p/8/a/4/8a4c6c344bbb8f55/episodeonehundredtwofinal.mp3?d13a76d516d9dec20c3d276ce028ed5089ab1ce3dae902ea1d01cb8e34d0ce59b616&c_id=4209360

I found a great BIN auction for some CSM and picked them up. I had to make a choice between that and the small Necron force auction that I'd won. After getting at least 1850 for each, I opted to go with CSM.

While I don't have every piece that I'd want for CSM, I was perfectly happy with it, only ever consistently losing to DE Raider/Venom spam that a friend plays.

I can't say that I put together the best lists, as I've never really put effort into combing through the Army List forum for CSM lists. I just use what looked good in the codex, without resorting to a dual Lash Prince list.

I recently made a switch to Blood Angels, after trading a good sized Necron army for them. It's been a nice change of pace, but I do miss the CSM.

My wife is going to start playing 40k with me, and perhaps the group I play in, and I think CSM might be the right direction for her once 6th edition comes out. If she does, I will ultimately give her the choice of army she wants to play (CSM, BA, or SW). One way or the other, I think my CSM will live on.