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2012/06/19 21:12:21
Subject: "Alcohol consumption would fall 25% if cannabis cafes were allowed" says Professor Nutt
A former government adviser on drugs has told MPs that alcohol consumption would fall by as much as 25% if Dutch-style cannabis "coffee shops" were introduced in Britain.
Nutt told MPs the cost of policing cannabis use was only £500m a year, mainly for issuing possession warning notices, compared with the £6bn a year bill for policing the use of alcohol, including dealing with people who were drunk and disorderly.
His call for the decriminalisation of the use of all drugs was backed by a second former government drug adviser, Prof Lesley King, who told MPs that most people who took ecstasy did so without harming themselves or inflicting wider harms on society.
The two former government drug advisers were giving evidence to the Commons home affairs select committee's inquiry into drugs policy.
Nutt has argued that the harmful impact of removing criminal sanctions on cannabis use would be relatively modest unless it was as actively marketed as alcohol, since almost half of young people already used the drug. He said he had argued in a Lancet paper that alcohol was the most harmful drug in Britain largely because of its frightening contribution to domestic violence, child abuse and road traffic accidents.
"A regulated market for illicit drugs would be the best way and we could reduce alcohol consumption by as much as 25% if we had the Dutch model of cannabis cafes," said Nutt, adding that he believed the police would rather deal with people who were stoned than drunk.
"The drugs trade is the second biggest international trade in the world, after oil, and it is completely unregulated … It is impossible to win the war on drugs."
2012/06/19 21:18:07
Subject: "Alcohol consumption would fall 25% if cannabis cafes were allowed" says Professor Nutt
dæl wrote:"A regulated market for illicit drugs would be the best way and we could reduce alcohol consumption by as much as 25% if we had the Dutch model of cannabis cafes," said Nutt, adding that he believed the police would rather deal with people who were stoned than drunk.
Doesn't that sounds like a bit of a made up number, as it is? I'm all for legalization of light drugs, and it really doesn't have to bring 'good' side effects to be justifiable... The simple fact that it's a personnal liberty should be enough...
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
2012/06/19 21:19:25
Subject: "Alcohol consumption would fall 25% if cannabis cafes were allowed" says Professor Nutt
What the hell is he basing his figures on.
25%? Convenient figure.
Not saying by the way that it's a bad idea, but come on. At least say it's worth it for the tax revenues and redirection of income into legitimate channels.
I am pretty well agreed that it is impossible to win the war on any noun you choose, though.
LordofHats wrote:Am I the only who sits here and wonders how a bar full of stoners is any different from a bar full of drunks?
There would be far less fights, I think Bill Hicks said something along those lines.
It's probably a lot less damaging to the brain and liver. In fact cannabis when taken with alcohol makes the alcohol cause less damage
Spoiler:
Compounds in cannabis may protect the human brain against alcohol-induced damage, according to clinical trial data published online by the journal Neurotoxicology and Teratology.
Investigators at the University of California at San Diego examined white matter integrity in adolescents with histories of binge drinking and marijuana use.
They reported that binge drinkers (defined as boys who consumed five or more drinks in one sitting, or girls who consumed four or more drinks at one time) showed signs of white matter damage in eight separate regions of the brain.
By contrast, the binge drinkers who also used marijuana experienced less damage in seven out of the eight brain regions.
“Binge drinkers who also use marijuana did not show as consistent a divergence from non-users as did the binge drink-only group,” authors concluded. “[It is] possible that marijuana may have some neuroprotective properties in mitigating alcohol-related oxidative stress or excitotoxic cell death.”
In 2005, researchers at the National Institutes of Mental Health reported that the administration of the non-psychoactive cannabinoid cannabidiol (CBD) reduced alcohol-induced cell death in the hippocampus and etorhinal cortex of the brain in a dose-dependent manner by up to 60 percent. “This study provides the first demonstration of CBD as an in vivo neuroprotectant … in preventing binge ethanol-induced brain injury,” investigators concluded in The Journal of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics.
Commenting on the findings, NORML Deputy Director Paul Armentano said, “Alcohol and cannabis appear to have contrasting effects on the body,” he said. “Ethanol is clearly toxic to healthy and developing cells whereas cannabinoids appear to be relatively non-toxic and possibly even neuroprotective.”
San Diego, CA–(ENEWSPF)
August 27, 2009.
Source: norml.org
Alcohol causes domestic and child abuse that cannabis, I would imagine, would not.
2012/06/19 21:46:21
Subject: "Alcohol consumption would fall 25% if cannabis cafes were allowed" says Professor Nutt
Hmm, so instead of getting beaten to death on a saturday night by drunks, we're going to get bored to death by stoners.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2012/06/19 21:46:55
Subject: "Alcohol consumption would fall 25% if cannabis cafes were allowed" says Professor Nutt
Da Boss wrote:
Not saying by the way that it's a bad idea, but come on. At least say it's worth it for the tax revenues and redirection of income into legitimate channels.
He does say that we would save money on policing both cannabis and alcohol.
And says, "The drugs trade is the second biggest international trade in the world, after oil, and it is completely unregulated"
2012/06/19 21:49:58
Subject: "Alcohol consumption would fall 25% if cannabis cafes were allowed" says Professor Nutt
LordofHats wrote:Am I the only who sits here and wonders how a bar full of stoners is any different from a bar full of drunks?
There would be far less fights, I think Bill Hicks said something along those lines.
It's probably a lot less damaging to the brain and liver. In fact cannabis when taken with alcohol makes the alcohol cause less damage
I know (subjectively) that alcohol is worse than weed (this obviously only apply to my own experience). I am very sensitive to alcohol (I'll be tipsy the second wine touches my tongue) and will feel slowed down for about 2-3 days after. I have put myself through IQ tests both on and off weed, without a single point of difference. I have yet to test myself on alcohol, but I'm sure I'll lose about 10-15 points.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/06/19 22:10:28
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
2012/06/19 22:20:20
Subject: "Alcohol consumption would fall 25% if cannabis cafes were allowed" says Professor Nutt
If you can't beat them, allow the safer materials but ban the others.
If we legalize one, why not legalize them all?
It's probably a lot less damaging to the brain and liver.
Liver yes but brain? I'm not sure about that.
Alcohol dementia will make a man cut his own hand in hopes of getting alcohol as an analgesic.
I've yet to meet anyone with 'weed' dementia whose problems were so serious (admittedly schizophrenia isn't cool either)
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
2012/06/19 22:41:30
Subject: Re:"Alcohol consumption would fall 25% if cannabis cafes were allowed" says Professor Nutt
Because cannabis is by far the safest and most socially prevalent. a large percentage of the population smoke it but don't pay any tax to.
Right, but the majority of the same arguments can be made for the other drugs. Why not bring in more tax?
You could make the case for ecstacy/mdma, but other stuff seem far more damaging.
All drugs are damaging. Its part of the package (this includes cigarettes and alcohol). Ultimately its free will. Yes, getting rid of these would be the better alternative but its impossible.
I'm content to sit back and let people kill themselves all they want.
2012/06/19 22:51:51
Subject: "Alcohol consumption would fall 25% if cannabis cafes were allowed" says Professor Nutt
Because cannabis is by far the safest and most socially prevalent. a large percentage of the population smoke it but don't pay any tax to.
Right, but the majority of the same arguments can be made for the other drugs. Why not bring in more tax?
You could make the case for ecstacy/mdma, but other stuff seem far more damaging.
All drugs are damaging. Its part of the package (this includes cigarettes and alcohol). Ultimately its free will. Yes, getting rid of these would be the better alternative but its impossible.
I'm content to sit back and let people kill themselves all they want.
But ecstacy/weed are only really damaging to the person taking them, addiction to cocaine and morphine are damaging to society.
2012/06/19 22:55:47
Subject: Re:"Alcohol consumption would fall 25% if cannabis cafes were allowed" says Professor Nutt
Because cannabis is by far the safest and most socially prevalent. a large percentage of the population smoke it but don't pay any tax to.
Right, but the majority of the same arguments can be made for the other drugs. Why not bring in more tax?
You could make the case for ecstacy/mdma, but other stuff seem far more damaging.
All drugs are damaging. Its part of the package (this includes cigarettes and alcohol). Ultimately its free will. Yes, getting rid of these would be the better alternative but its impossible.
I'm content to sit back and let people kill themselves all they want.
But ecstacy/weed are only really damaging to the person taking them, addiction to cocaine and morphine are damaging to society.
And of the family that has to deal with someone addicted to ecstacy/weed? Any addiction is inherently damaging to society, the family or the individual (or any combination of the three depending on what it is).
Alcohol is damaging to society. I heard that prohibition didn't go smoothly.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/06/19 22:58:18
2012/06/19 22:57:41
Subject: Re:"Alcohol consumption would fall 25% if cannabis cafes were allowed" says Professor Nutt
The problem for prohibition was less that alcohol is inescapable and more that the amendment is a picture perfect case of Congress and politicians listening to lobbyists a lot more than they should have. Not many people in the American public wanted alcohol banned, let alone cared when the government tried (heck, the government honestly didn't care).
It's not like our culture has some long standing prohibition against the sauce to reinforce such a law.
Likewise, the reverse is probably true of some drugs. They've been illegal so long, no one cares how harmful they actually are (or harmless-ish?).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/19 23:06:12
I've recently given up a cannabis habbit of four years (to varying degrees of severity), and my alcohol consumption has rocketed...there is some truth to this.
Unnessesarily extravegant word of the week award goes to jcress410 for this:
jcress wrote:Seem super off topic to complain about epistemology on a thread about tactics.
2012/06/19 23:01:58
Subject: Re:"Alcohol consumption would fall 25% if cannabis cafes were allowed" says Professor Nutt
Hence why reducing alcohol consumption by 25% and replacing it with cannabis would be a good thing.
How do you counter a rise in weed consumption?
Your offering a false choice. Weed consumption has little to no bad side effect if its starts after the 20s. Alcohol consumption is damaging at all ages, and in far greater proportion. Hence why, if one is legal, the other should be.
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
2012/06/19 23:04:40
Subject: Re:"Alcohol consumption would fall 25% if cannabis cafes were allowed" says Professor Nutt
Hence why reducing alcohol consumption by 25% and replacing it with cannabis would be a good thing.
How do you counter a rise in weed consumption?
Your offering a false choice. Weed consumption has little to no bad side effect if its starts after the 20s. Alcohol consumption is damaging at all ages, and in far greater proportion. Hence why, if one is legal, the other should be.
And would everyone who smokes weed take it after they are twenty? Are all the academics in agreement with regards to the side effects?
If one is legal, they should all be, simply because any arguments against allowing the others falls flat.
2012/06/19 23:06:24
Subject: Re:"Alcohol consumption would fall 25% if cannabis cafes were allowed" says Professor Nutt
Kovnik Obama wrote:
Your offering a false choice. Weed consumption has little to no bad side effect if its starts after the 20s. Alcohol consumption is damaging at all ages, and in far greater proportion. Hence why, if one is legal, the other should be.
Well no.
It gives you cancer and respiratory diseases.
It also saps your motiviation and lowers your intelligence.
Alcohol, by contrast, is harmless once it's worn off.
Unnessesarily extravegant word of the week award goes to jcress410 for this:
jcress wrote:Seem super off topic to complain about epistemology on a thread about tactics.
Desert Hunters of Vior'la 
The Purge 
Iron Hands 
Adepts of Pestilence 
Tallaran Desert Raiders 
Grey Knight Teleport Assault Force
(Or Stupid... OR Drunk AND Stupid!)
