Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi folks, I've been playing 40k for years (about 18 in fact...) and I'm starting to find I want to try something different. I've been doing some research online about Hordes as some of the models really caught my eye and piqued my interest. I'm looking to find out what the people who play it think about it, whats it like? Is it easy to pick up and jump into? If I'm looking to start playing it what factions/models would you suggest I start with?

I looked up the quick start manual online and I found the system new and VERY refreshing (I mean 4 pages of basic rules compared to... how many hundreds for 40k?) A lot of the Legions of Everblight and Circle of Orboros models caught my eye and I was thinking about starting there, so what can you guys tell me about them?

Basically I'm asking whats the best way to start Hordes???
Thanks for any help you guys provide in advance.

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:Hi folks, I've been playing 40k for years (about 18 in fact...) and I'm starting to find I want to try something different. I've been doing some research online about Hordes as some of the models really caught my eye and piqued my interest. I'm looking to find out what the people who play it think about it, whats it like? Is it easy to pick up and jump into? If I'm looking to start playing it what factions/models would you suggest I start with?

I looked up the quick start manual online and I found the system new and VERY refreshing (I mean 4 pages of basic rules compared to... how many hundreds for 40k?) A lot of the Legions of Everblight and Circle of Orboros models caught my eye and I was thinking about starting there, so what can you guys tell me about them?

Basically I'm asking whats the best way to start Hordes???
Thanks for any help you guys provide in advance.

Hordes is a pretty good system to play. its the other side of the coin. bear in mind hordes and warmachine are one game, and are entirely compatible with each other. hordes and warmchine are both very easy to pick up, but extremely difficult to master. i an teach you the basics in ten minutes, but when it comes to actual play, you will be unlocking new synnergies and combos for years. there will always be a portential for "i never saw that coming", and "he can do WHAT now??" in this game. yes, when we say it is a deep, tactical game - we mean that, exactly. forget what you know, and what you understand from 40k - this is a completely different beast.


bear in mind the QSRs are quick start rules - they're not the full rules set by any means. use them for your battle box games for sure, but when you dig deeper, and start taking units etc, expect the rules to get deeper. to answer your question as to the best way of starting, its simple - battle boxes. start small. there is no pointi jumping in at 25, or 35pts. you will simply be overwhelmed. battle boxes with the QSRs are where people cut their teeth in this game. its a tried and trusted, and well worn path. use it to get the basics down - fury, boosts, the order of activation, spells, feats, threshold checks (hordes only!) etc. you will find its less about what you take, and more about what you take with what you take. synnergies are key in this game. this isnt like 40k in the sense that to play circle, you *should* take x, y and z. everything can be built into an effective, winning strategy. x might be good with caster a, while y better suits caster b. everything can be made to be an effective part of a winning game plan.

regarding the factions them themselves, here is my description of the hordes factions:

Trollbloods: Braveheart Trolls

Trollbloods - Large, tough, strong with a kilt and tartan wearing scottish highlander theme and a back story that begins like the Trail of Tears, until their version of "Crazy Horse" starts winning when he binds the tribes together. The most "good guy" choice, with some Dirty Dozen, Braveheart and the Incredible Hulk thrown in for spice. Pieces can cost more than average to collect because they are larger and require more metal to manufacture. trollbloods are seen as the "brick" faction. they tend to grind out an attrition based win. they hit hard, but their true strength is being able to buff themselves up with overlapping layers of buffs, and absorb whatever you throw at them, and laugh it all off. they are also the "humourous" faction. No, they're not orky, and no they're not comedy, but they have some amusing moments, especially as the faction as a whole always seems to be hungry they like drinking, fighting and carousing with the trollblood maidens afterwards.


Skorne: Roman/Samurai Legions with slightly more torture and pain.

A mix of Roman, Samurai and Persian influences, particularly in fancy ornate armor. A cruel empire of slavery, war and conquest revolving around a warrior society, a warrior cult that glorifies death in battle against overwhelming odds (its their only way of acheiving immortality as the Skorne reject the gods, and face only oblivion on death otherwise) and a study of death magic and ancestor worship. The Skorne despise the gods, and especially those who worship dieties, and consider themselves all the stronger for standing on their own, without any dieties to aid them. They are the hordes faction that is most likely to look like an organized army in uniform. They employ enslaved crocodiles, the elephantine Titans and a soul fueled terracotta army of warrior-golems to bolster their numbers. in terms of playstyle they like to get the most out of their beasts by imflicting pain on them to do so.


Legion: Blighted evil goblin-elves who worship a dragon (who commands them with a tyranid-like hive mind) that has genetically twisted them in his own image and into his perfect army.
The Elves look more like goblins, their leader is a dragon-possessed ogre who grew wings (and promptly ate another dragon). They fight with primitive bows and swords but wield scary magic and breed dragon blood spawned monsters that are a cross between sharks-on-land and a dinosaur. They play by their own rules (ignore terrain, LOS etc), and hope to eat the souls of all the other dragon-gods. Lots of female characters ranging from weird deformed mutants to bow hunters to ninjas to sorceresses. overall they're fast and tend to be the most beast-heavy faction. definately a hit and run/glass cannon faction that focuses purely on assassination and "killing the other guy" as opposed to grabbing objectives and playing the attrition game.


Circle: Faustian Terrorist Druids meet up at Stonehenge for a tree spiking or a human sacrifice.
Forget tree hugging hippies. THese guys are the wrath of the hurricane. these guys embody purely the wild, powerful, untameable and incredibly destructive aspect of nature. Fires, floods, earthquakes and disaster. These nature manipulators believe that civilization will bring about the destruction of mankind. They seek to destroy civilisation, and restore "balance" to the world. They draw their power from a being that essentially represents the end times. They will steal babies, blight the harvest and make Faustian deals to advance their agenda. Their army consists of druids, wildmen and hunters, werewolves, beastmen, stone-golems, sacred stone markers, grizzly-sized goats, and anyone they can manipulate to serve them. They source their magics from the very wilds themselves, and use magic to manipulate terrain and nature itself(earth and stone, wind, lightning etc), slay foes, teleports or makes their minions stronger. they're a surprisingly resilient glass cannon/ guerrilla faction. lots of dirty tricks and manipulations.


The Farrow Minions (the mercenaries of hordes- they're a subfaction, like WMs pirates and dwarves) - the iron Kingdoms do not have ork. Instead, they have Pork! Farrow are scavenging Boars who walk on their hind legs and carry scavenged/looted rifles. They are led by a self styled, (if somewhat deluded) Conan the Boar-barian, and are allied with a Mad Scientist who created Frankenstein cyborg-pigs sewn together from spare parts of bodies and robots to do their dirty work. A new addition to the game, there are fewer choices of models if played with one of their own generals, but all units and solos can be included in almost any Hordes Army.

The Alligator Minions. Hordes doesnt do lizardmen. they do Gatormen. With Bayou and Voodoo, and sinister undead undertones these Gatormen are leather hide tough, but fight with only simple spears and possess no technology not even bows and arrows. They are joined by other swamp creatures such as poison tree frogs, giant snapping turtles who spit acid, and fishmen who like to sneak up behind you. Another new addition to the game, there are fewer choices of models if played with one of their own generals, but all units and solos can be included in almost any Hordes Army.

Wow thanks Deadnight, I've gotta say thats pretty damn in depth. But only 35pts? How does that system work then, is it like 1pt per model?

From the sounds of things it's get a battle box (I guess thats similar to what a battleforce is in 40k) for the basis of your army. Then its a matter of develop your own style of play and add extra things and rules bit by bit from there. Ok what faction would you say is the best for easy learning of the more developed styles of play? (if there is even a faction for that) I also gotta say... wow now I'm really torn between factions lol...

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:Wow thanks Deadnight, I've gotta say thats pretty damn in depth. But only 35pts? How does that system work then, is it like 1pt per model?

Sometimes. On average, units vary from 4-10 points, Solos from 1-3 points, Lights from 4-6, and Heavies from 6-10.

Your Warlocks also give you points to spend exclusively on beasts.

What Deadnight says about forgetting everything you know and expect from 40K is very true. Bringing those biases(especially with regard to the false dichotomy of RaW and RaI) will only make it harder to learn the game.

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:. Ok what faction would you say is the best for easy learning of the more developed styles of play? (if there is even a faction for that) I also gotta say... wow now I'm really torn between factions lol...

Here's the great thing about WM/H - there are no Space Marines, no 'beginner faction', no 'Oh, play these guys, they're the best'.

Your best bet is to pick what faction's fluff/model and overall play-style interest you. I say overall, because most factions are able to play in a variety of ways depending on your list. I play Skorne, for example, which is a faction best known for being slow and hard hitting with a focus on melee. But I can pull of plenty of movement shenanigans that can send my force rocketing towards you, and even fild decent amounts of shooting if need be.

Hand me an oar, because I'm in the same boat.

I would also recommend checking out these links.

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/ -- for a little insight into all the factions and models.

http://www.forwardkommander.com/ -- for an idea of how to make lists.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/454198.page -- this one because it has the two factions you were considering first. This is where I plan to start, unfortunately, it doesn't come out for a couple of months yet.

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:Wow thanks Deadnight, I've gotta say thats pretty damn in depth. But only 35pts? How does that system work then, is it like 1pt per model?
.

points are points. in 40k, you talk about 500, 1000, 1500, 1750, 2000pts etch, with, say a marine costing 16, and a squad including *various stuff* costing in total, maybe 200pts? seems reasonable. Warmachine (and hordes btw!) have a different type of points system. A minimum unit of iron fang pikemen costs 5pts. a max unit costs 8pts. for example. heavy warjacks cost between 6 and 13. solos cost between 2 and 4pts. games generally range from 25 to 50pts. 35 and 50 are the norm.

you dont really have *optional upgrades* in the sense that a 40k marine can swap out a bolter for a missile launcher for Xpts. your iron fang pikeman has a shield and a blasting pike... and thats it, and thats all he's ever have. WHat some squads have is UAs and WAs (unit attachments, and weapon attachments) that can be added to the squad. With the Pikeys i mentioned above, they have an "officer and a standard bearer" UA that costs 2. add brings the squad total up to 12. winter guard have an officer and standard bearer UA and rocketeer WAs (basically extra grunts with blunderbusses and rocket launchers) which can be added to the squad. but bear in mind, just like the basic Pikeys, the UAs and the WAs will always be, and will always have exactly whats on the card. no swaps or changes!

firstly, your warcaster is free. in fact, they give you a certain number of *warjack points* that can be spent, in addition to the agreed points total of the game on warjacks in the warcasters battlegroup. So, say you're playing a 35pt game, with a warcaster (like irusk) who has 6 WJ points. you can take 35pts worth of stuff, as well as an additional 6pts that can be spent towards warjacks (best way to think about it is the first warjack you select costs Xpts less, with X being the WJ pts of the warcaster)

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:
Ok what faction would you say is the best for easy learning of the more developed styles of play? (if there is even a faction for that) I also gotta say... wow now I'm really torn between factions lol...

all of them.

No faction is easily defined. No faction can be pigeonholed into a single style of play. Literally, swapping out the caster changes the whole feel, tactics and playstyle of the army., even if every other choice remains the same. Butcher will always play a different game to Sorscha,for example, even with the same units. Now, i play Khador, and Circle of Orboros (a Hordes faction). Khador is my main focus. they're often seen as the slow faction that can take a beating. they're also seen as the "beatstick faction". indeed, he cries and whoops of "axe to face" generally give an indication of the mentality of khador players However, they're the fastest slow faction in the game. With casters like Vlad and Strakhov, they'll bound their units and jacks across the entire board in 2 turns - and play an absolute storming blitzkrieg type of game. "slow"? heh, yeah right! as to "beatstick faction", I often describe khador as the faction where "in khador, there is no such thing as excessive force". that said, for a supposed "beatstick" faction, they've got the best artillery in the game, and some of the best ranged support units (winter guard rifle korps, widowmakers, nyss hunter mercenaries) in the entire game. it is entirely possible to do a shooty khador list. Also, Khador are no slouches when it comes to control shenanigans - just ask the Old Witch, and Epic Irusk. Its not just khador. I also play circle. often seen as the glass cannon/hit and run/guerrilla faction, they have some seriously meaty attrition lists - just talk to a Baldur construct army, or look at tharn ravagers, or skinwalker heavy infantry. So you see, you cant really define a faction by one "thing". every army will have a build that is contrary to the high concept behind them.

there is no "beginner guide". this is not 40k. these are not imperial guard, where to do well, you take the leafblower list. What you take matters less than your synnergies, and how you play. as a new player too, expect to lose, regardless of what you take. if you win any of your first dozen games, you're seriously doinf something wrong. there is no easy learning, im afraid. warmachine is gaming on hard mode. its playing halo with the rifle and two spare clips of ammo, or playing starcraft against a korean. expect to lose. expect to be humiliated. expect not to see it coming. especially at the start. this is part of the experience, and its actually something to be embraced, as its a completely new kind of play/experience for you. and its a stage we all have to go through. So get your starter pack together,find a pressganger or local group, and get some games/beatings in have fun, and have a laugh. remember page 5. dont whine. be gratuitious, keep coming back for more, dont be a jerk, and play like you got a pair.

Wow thanks guys keep it coming

I must admit, when first coming over from 40k it was VERY hard for me to realise that the rules are as written. I kept looking for loopholes ect, and then realised, wow, these rules are tightly writtten.

Before choosing a faction i really suggest dling the faction books and looking at them. If i did that before jumping in i would be playing skorne as my premier force, not khador. Still, i'll have skorne eventually .
I still advocate buying the books after or just the faction deck, or the war room app decks (if it ever comes out).

Good to see more people interested in Warmachine/hordes.

If you like the look of Circle and Legion, you could hang on for the two player starter. That will be excellent value for money for you and comes with two playable lists in plastic, plus the rules.

With Hordes (and WM) it's often very important to pick your "caster". This is your leader character, and he or she defines how your army will play. Casters have different spells and abilities that synergise with different beasts and units, and a once off special ability called a feat that can be a total game changer. So they have very different playstyles because of that. Added to that, since the game has an evolving storyline, there are more than one version of some named characters to represent their character progressing. First arc characters are "prime" (p) and second arc characters are "epic" (e). Epic casters aren't better than prime, just different.

Here's some examples from Legion:

Lylith: The Battlebox caster. She is a shooty caster who likes to avoid melee. She can ignore terrain for targeting and movement. She is hard to hit but squishy when she gets hit. Her feat allows her models to hit with much greater accuracy, meaning she can assassinate other high defense models with ease. Her weakness is perhaps that she doesn't have much Fury for casting spells and a limited spell list. This is balanced by 6 warbeast points.
pThagrosh: A big mutant ogre possessed by a dragon, Thagrosh is a pretty decent melee beatstick with some nice spells. Thagrosh can take more of a beating than Lylyth, but he's easier to hit and harder to hide. He's got a diverse spell list and plenty of fury. His feat allows him to bring back slain warbeast on full health. Very useful, and lends itself towards an aggressive, attrition based playstyle. He's balanced by having 5 warbeast points.
Vayl: Vayl is pretty much a pure spell caster. She's got a good spell list with lots of direct damage, some tricky control spells and a very high Fury stat of 8. She's surrounded by a constant blizzard, meaning she can't be easily targeted by ranged attacks, and has a magical orb as a weapon that can allow her to use models hit as a point of origin for spells. She has a special rule allowing a warbeast to counter attack anyone who moves close to her. Her feat allows movement shennanigans to get into position for an assassination, or escape danger. She's extremely flimsy and has no melee attacks, and is a caster that requires finesse to play.

That's just the basics of Legion, there are other casters too (eThagrosh and Lylyth, Belthayne (who is joined symbiotically with a warbeast), Absylonia (a mutated warbeast specialist caster), Rhyas (a ninja assassin) and Saern (her spell casting twin sister) as well as Kallus, the legion's infantry caster.

So changing a caster with a core list can totally change play style. It's pretty great to keep the game fresh and interesting, once you've learned the basics. Every faction is like this- I can play sneaky trolls or beatstick trolls or shooty trolls or mob trolls, I can do tough circle using stone constructs or aggressive glass cannon circle using lots of beasts, or infantry heavy circle. It;s all open to play. But don't go in with that idea. Get the starter, or a battle box, play some games. Find out what appeals to you, and build slowly. You don't need to buy a whole "build" like in 40K- you can add units over time and see their effects. It's really well designed that way.

Also, rules releases are simultaneous for all factions, so no one faction is left waiting a decade for an update, and the internal balance is about as close to perfect as can be managed.

I'm sold... just looked up the two player box, gona be starting there when it gets released. I have to say Hordes seems so much more user friendly than 40k, none of this rules as intended crap that causes nuclear fall outs when a game hits a point of what happens now then?

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:I'm sold... just looked up the two player box, gona be starting there when it gets released. I have to say Hordes seems so much more user friendly than 40k, none of this rules as intended crap that causes nuclear fall outs when a game hits a point of what happens now then?

Not really. Rules do exactly what they say(and I do mean exactly, see the furor surrounding Shield Guard and water interacting with Knockdown). Some people do get confused do to the occasional, shall we say, verbose way they sometimes write a rule, but a good slow concise read will generally sort it out and if not, the Infernals on the PP will sort you out(if you can't get an answer from someone who's been playing longer).

Finally a game system that doesn't have arguements over the rules as a core component. As you've been saying to me there are no 'easy' factions to start with and no quick method of learning the tactical play, so what are the most popular styles of play and what are the most commonly seen factions?

Trollbloods and Legion seem to be the more popular two of the Hordes factions, with Cryx and Cygnar probably being the most popular WM factions. As for playstyles, they really vary so much across the board that you can't say what is most popular, especially for tournament play where you can have multiple lists. One of the nicer things about WM is that pretty much every faction can field a list for each play style, and usually has a caster strong in that particular element.

I think 'most popular factions' is very different from place to place. Where I play, we currently have a lot of Khador players (me included - might have chosen Cygnar if I had know this earlier).

So if you want to play something currently popular or don't want to do that, just visit your local WM/H player community first. Maybe they'll also let you borrow a few of their models to have some games with so you can learn a few things about the game and see what you like to play most. I found that WM/H players are somehow more relaxed about borrowing models - the game feels a bit like a collecting cards game sometimes, where you see a cool combo for your deck but haven't got the card so you ask a friend if you can borrow one or if they care to trade a card or two. One of my regular opponents actually traded a massive Retribution of Scyrah collection for an equally massive Khador one. Personally, I value painting and the results too much to do that, but it does seem to work for some.

Also, let me mention one aspect about the rules that a few people do not like, but which I think is actually wonderful: since rules are written to play just like they say, you can sometimes pull off game-changing combos by attacking your own models. For example, if the enemy caster is in combat with one of your jacks (jacks are easier to hit than infantry or casters most of the time), you could use pSorschas Tempest spell and cast it at the jacks so she will most likely hit. The spell has a template and everything under it is knocked down and suffers a moderate-strength hit. So now the enemy caster is knocked down and thus very easy to hit (the number you need to roll will just have gone down by roughly 10 points) and he may have suffered some damage, too. If you have enough stuff to shoot and/or assault it, he will probably die. Your jack being knocked down may not matter too much, as since he is already in melee, he can just spend his movement to stand up instead of using a focus to shake the effect. And most Khador jacks won't suffer a lot of damage from the hit, as you'd need to roll more than 8 on 2d6 to cause any, and the maximum you can cause is 4.

Now if you pulled that in 40k, you'd have a day-long argument about whether or not that was within the limit of the rules, not to mention the fluff discussion. Mind-numbing. In WM/H, players enjoy finding combos like this. Even when they are used against them, as every defeat is a chance to learn and become better. There is no discussion, if anything about this move is in doubt, it is a matter of quickly looking in the spell description whether it has any targeting restrictions (which I just did, as I just made that combo up - and yes, it works! Next time I play vs. the Butcher or someone similar, I'll use this! ) The game is a lot more like a sports competition or maybe martial arts, where training and learning is just as important as winning and losing a game but understanding the mistakes you made is almost as satisfactory as winning. Also, if you win, you often want to analyse the mistake you got away with so as to not become lazy...

So yeah, I am a rather recent convert, too, but I am a total convert. My 40K armies will not see action for a long, long time.

Since we're doing the 40k comparison: In 40k, a lot of things seem to based around "which unit can hit how hard on their own" while most Warmahordes games are based on different units supporting each other. This is most obvious with the Warcaster/Warlock, who has a wide array of spells he can use, like Cygnar's pCain who can increase the range and the accuracy of ranged weapons, and therefore works great with units like Long Gunners and Gum Mages. But there are other models who can help. Like a veteran monster scholar, who can buff your units when fighting warbeasts.

Also, while 40k games can be decided in the first round, a Warmahordes game can easily be turned around by using the "feat" of each caster. These powerful abilities allow a quick retreat or a devastating blow to the enemy.


The one downside in this game, at least for me, is that a lot of heavy metal models and very few spare parts make it hard to convert if you're into that sort of thing.

That's true, the game isn't really about models as much as GW games are. Not only is most of the range still metal, even though they are re-releasing most units in plastic now and about half the jacks and beasts are already plastic, but it is also not really feasible to convert a lot because it doesn't work game-wise, imo. The game does rely on being able to take in the situation on the table with a glance at the models a lot more than 40k. 'Misread' a model in 40K, okay, bummer, but a minor thing. 'Misread' one in WM/H, it'll likely be a game-changer, as threat ranges, damage potential and synergies of a single model have a lot more impact here.

So basically you can convert poses, you can maybe exchange a head, but that is about it. Using different bodies won't work well, and using different weapons won't work at all (exchanging a big axe for another big axe just might, though).

The quality of their range also vary, with some of the older models quite unimpressive. Recent releases are great though.
I heard they had few in-house sculptors, does someone know more about this ?

On the rules, I've said it elsewhere : to me, it feels like they've been written like a program by a software engineer. There's a part of the book that actually presents the phases as algorithms, the same way as MtG does with the stack. Obviously it works wonder as a rule system, and it feels very comfortable to my Cartesian mind.

Platuan4th wrote:(and I do mean exactly, see the furor surrounding Shield Guard and water interacting with Knockdown)

Haven't heard of those, you piqued my curiosity...

There was a recent errata that fixed some issues with target selection and what not. The issue is that originally Shield Guard worked regardless of whether the model with the rule could be an original target or not. Now it is such that it can be avoided by avoiding LOS to the Shield Guard model. This has, in effect, nerfed the rule by relation. PP errata does this a bit: stuff that sets one precedent might have effects elsewhere based on its RoW nature.

That said, there are rumors that this will be covered in the next errata when that rolls-ou. And it is a common thing on rulings for thist oo. PP does try to address problems, but I admit not knowing GW's policy on thiss, so won't really compare, just noting what I deal with from 'em.

As an aside, there have been a couple "Read as Intended" things in the game, though there is it seems attempts to keep things from going silly on that and trying to justify it in rules at some point. Also, as noted already, attacking your own models is utterly legit. Some warlocks I play have a bit of their strategy around that. Or at least, a trick that I like to use now and again with some spells.

And stuff.

Hyd wrote:The quality of their range also vary, with some of the older models quite unimpressive. Recent releases are great though.
I heard they had few in-house sculptors, does someone know more about this ?

On the rules, I've said it elsewhere : to me, it feels like they've been written like a program by a software engineer. There's a part of the book that actually presents the phases as algorithms, the same way as MtG does with the stack. Obviously it works wonder as a rule system, and it feels very comfortable to my Cartesian mind.

Platuan4th wrote:(and I do mean exactly, see the furor surrounding Shield Guard and water interacting with Knockdown)

Haven't heard of those, you piqued my curiosity...

Essentially:

For Shield Guard to work, the model firing must have both the original target and the Shield Guard model in LoS(in other words, the Shield Guarding model must be a valid target). What this means is that the player with the firing model can simply negate Shield Guard completely by simply turning so that only the original is in the front arc and thus in LoS. As this is is the exact opposite intent of how many saw Shield Guard(that the model can interpose itself between the shooter and target in time because THEY see the attack coming), the ruling which enforced it was not well received as it meant certain models were charging points for an ability they would never see use out of.

Water and Knockdown is a more limited scenario(really only affecting Gatormen). By the rules for Water, a Warjack that is Knocked Down in shallow water has its heartflame extinguished. However, the way the rule is worded, the model must already be standing in the water at the time when the knockdown takes place. It does NOT trigger if a model is already Knocked Down before entering water, say by being Pulled by a Swamp Horror. It ruined many a person's day when it was ruled that this new plan to deal with Warjacks by placing Barnabus' spell templates(which can not be placed under models or touching a base), popping feat, and using Swampies to put out the fire by pulling them in was ruled to be invalid before the model was even released.

I see, so Privateer Press are just like GW in the days of old when they were geared towards their fans and hobbyists (the early days) compared to how they are now (which is we WILL force these new models, books, games, rules etc down your throat and you WILL like it so much you WILL buy more because if you don't we WILL have to increase our prices because of dwindling sales creating a vicious cycle)

They are a bit like GW was in the early nineties, maybe, but their approach to gaming is still totally different. In 2nd edition 40K you could already field brutally beardy armies (beardy being that time's term for overpowered) and rules were often unclear and had to be guessed. GW makes models and fluff and then writes some quick rules for them after a night at Bugman's Bar. WM/H Mk II is something else. The rules are clean, and once you get a grasp of how the rulebook works, you'll be quick at finding whatever rule you need, so when there is a rules problem, it is solved quickly.

Let me give you another example. Epic Butcher has an ability that means that his normal attack (a term defined by the rulebook) is that he makes one attack against every model in his melee range and line of sight (which, in his specific case, is 360°) and that when there is no more model in his range and he killed at least one, he may immediately make a 1"-advance after resolving the attack. BUT he also has a spell that specifies that after resolving a normal attack in which he killed at least one, he must immediately make another melee attack.

Now there are two effects that trigger seemingly at the same time, leading to a massive rules argument if this were a GW game (because if he can advance an inch before the extra attack, and this extra attack is a normal attack so he attacks everything in his range once, this means doom for all infantry in a tight formation).

But since this is a PP game, and once I knew how the rulebook works, I immediately flipped to page 77, Appendix A, "Attack Main Sequence". And there, at the end of the sequence, it clearly states that effects triggered after an attack is resolved trigger in a specific order, namely active player effects not including an attack before active player effects involving an attack. Doom for all infantry in a tight formation it is. Epic Butcher rocks. And all his opponents stop using tight formations.

PP make a game first and foremost. There are a few, very few units that are considered to not really be worth their points, for example, but even those can be fielded and used successfully by a skillful player. This game is not about building a hard list, this game is about grabbing some stuff and your favourite caster and using your skill and the well-written ruleset to win.

[/PP-fanboyism] Yes, I am very much in love with this game, I really have to admit. I was just as much in love with GW two decades ago, as well, though.

One comparison I have seen that I gather to the games (which is fairly neutral, so why I say it) is that GW makes the models first and then gives those models a game to play in. PP makes the game first, and cretates models to play in the game. It's probably over-simplifying, but PP focuses on rules and trying to feed a healthy tournament environment, so that is what takes a lot of priority for them.

And stuff.

Blaque wrote:One comparison I have seen that I gather to the games (which is fairly neutral, so why I say it) is that GW makes the models first and then gives those models a game to play in. PP makes the game first, and cretates models to play in the game. It's probably over-simplifying, but PP focuses on rules and trying to feed a healthy tournament environment, so that is what takes a lot of priority for them.

And stuff.

I don't think that's quite right.

PP starts with some ideas, but there are rules in the game that are clearly model
driven such as the Stormblade's standard bearer having a sword, the location of L
and R weapons on 'jacks, and so on.

But the main rules, the basics, were not written with "whoa, space marines are sooooooooo cool" being the foremost thought on the game designer's mind. That's what that comparison is about.

malfred wrote:

Blaque wrote:One comparison I have seen that I gather to the games (which is fairly neutral, so why I say it) is that GW makes the models first and then gives those models a game to play in. PP makes the game first, and cretates models to play in the game. It's probably over-simplifying, but PP focuses on rules and trying to feed a healthy tournament environment, so that is what takes a lot of priority for them.

And stuff.

I don't think that's quite right.

PP starts with some ideas, but there are rules in the game that are clearly model
driven such as the Stormblade's standard bearer having a sword, the location of L
and R weapons on 'jacks, and so on.

But what if the rules came first, and the models followed?

Hyd wrote:On the rules, I've said it elsewhere : to me, it feels like they've been written like a program by a software engineer. There's a part of the book that actually presents the phases as algorithms, the same way as MtG does with the stack. Obviously it works wonder as a rule system, and it feels very comfortable to my Cartesian mind.

Interesting thought. Because I was thinking, maybe I like the game because it feels a bit like a videogame.

Platuan4th wrote:Water and Knockdown is a more limited scenario(really only affecting Gatormen). By the rules for Water, a Warjack that is Knocked Down in shallow water has its heartflame extinguished. However, the way the rule is worded, the model must already be standing in the water at the time when the knockdown takes place. It does NOT trigger if a model is already Knocked Down before entering water, say by being Pulled by a Swamp Horror. It ruined many a person's day when it was ruled that this new plan to deal with Warjacks by placing Barnabus' spell templates(which can not be placed under models or touching a base), popping feat, and using Swampies to put out the fire by pulling them in was ruled to be invalid before the model was even released.

What? Noooooo! I was so looking forward to doing that.

malfred wrote:

Blaque wrote:One comparison I have seen that I gather to the games (which is fairly neutral, so why I say it) is that GW makes the models first and then gives those models a game to play in. PP makes the game first, and cretates models to play in the game. It's probably over-simplifying, but PP focuses on rules and trying to feed a healthy tournament environment, so that is what takes a lot of priority for them.

And stuff.

I don't think that's quite right.

PP starts with some ideas, but there are rules in the game that are clearly model
driven such as the Stormblade's standard bearer having a sword, the location of L
and R weapons on 'jacks, and so on.

Then you get things like the Winter Guard Standard Bearer, which has both of the unit's weapons without either of them actually being on the model.

The models most definitely come after the rules. See Eiryss3, who is currently in the rough draft stage of concept art, but apparently has already gone through the playtesting cycle.

I think models normally begin their designs after rules are mostly ironed out, but there are some models like the ghordson basher, and at least two of the new colossals had been sculpted for years before their release. The difference is that PP waited to release those models until the time was right and they had the rules where they felt comfortable with them.