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Now that we have confirmed how hull points work the vehicle amounts of hull points, are vehicles pretty much done? Granted a tech Maine can repair d3 a turn... But who's gonna buy a bunch of theses to repair when points are better spent else where. Seems like to me vehicles are going to be glanced to death turn one often.

Most vehicles will have 3 HP, that means minimum 3 glances to wreck, barring any pens. I doubt vehicles will go away, but they won't be the kings of the battlefield anymore, which is probably the point of the rule.

It just means that players can't rely on transports to govern the flow of the game. Especially with the extra modifiers for AP2 and 1 weapons, melta got a lot more deadly.

Kal-El wrote:Now that we have confirmed how hull points work the vehicle amounts of hull points, are vehicles pretty much done? Granted a tech Maine can repair d3 a turn... But who's gonna buy a bunch of theses to repair when points are better spent else where. Seems like to me vehicles are going to be glanced to death turn one often.

Techmarines can repair D3 a turn? Can techpriests? I would love a reason to field techpriests.

Yeah I am thinking about nixing my 7 vehicles I currently use :(. Guess I will save them for 7th and apoc

Vehicles will have drastically lower lifespans.

Armies that simply rely on transports as 1 or 2 turn battle taxi's won't change, armies that rely on them throughout the game (Eldar, Tau, Guard, DE, etc) will really feel it.

The Hull Points system is very easy to game and gimmick, especially for lower AV vehicles where glances with lots of small arms fire are possible (my bolters do 2 glances, my next missile hit just needs to roll a 2+ to kill it, etc), and coupled with the new vehicles are "WS0 if stationary, WS1 if moving", vehicles basically are done if anything gets into base contact with them.

Don't expect to see dreads do much of anything in 6E either.

And gw put exclamations after the dreads have hull points in white dwarf I think lol.

Not to be overly snarky, but this is one of the many reasons why I still play play games of 4th Edition with my buddy. Vehicles were neither the kings of the battlefield(thought they were plenty good), nor were they overly nerfed the other way like it sounds like they are going to be now.

I will especially feel 6th edition if I (ever) play it with my fledgling Eldar army, as so far they are themed heavily like Saim-hann, with several Vypers, a Falcon and a Wave Serpent along my squads of Jetbikes. Hull points and how they function sound like they will suck for that.

Do we know that it is 1 glance means an auto -1 HP? Or does it depend on what is rolled on the damage table? Ie a crew shaken result might not make it loose a HP

Daston wrote:Do we know that it is 1 glance means an auto -1 HP? Or does it depend on what is rolled on the damage table? Ie a crew shaken result might not make it loose a HP

Glances do not roll on a damage table, it's just -1 Hull Point, no other effects. So in some ways it's good, but it means that it's really, really easy to kill them off.

AegisGrimm wrote:Not to be overly snarky, but this is one of the many reasons why I still play play games of 4th Edition with my buddy. Vehicles were neither the kings of the battlefield(thought they were plenty good), nor were they overly nerfed the other way like it sounds like they are going to be now.

O_o

Do you play 4E with anything but skimmers? especially non-skimmer *transports*? Because outside of the invinci-skimmers, you generally only saw sit-back-and-shoot tanks and transports basically were just used as mobile terrain.

I remember routinely being de-mech'd turn 1, Leman Russ tanks being destroyed by bolt pistols in the arse, etc.

4E was where tanks could be killed by glances, pen's killed on a 4+, tanks couldn't get cover (only a 4+ roll to downgrade a pen to a glance), any penetrating hit automatically forced disembarkation, destroyed transports auto-pinned passengers and forced wounds on a 4+ with explosions getting rerolls, ordnance could kill all passengers, etc.

Except skimmers, which for the two big skimmer armies had wargear to remove the drawbacks of skimmers and could, as long as they moved 6", basically only be killed on damage rolls of 6 or double 6 in the case of Falcons, never had to worry about forced disembarkation, were only ever hit on 6's in CC, could never be exploded, etc.

Not to be overly snarky, but this is one of the many reasons why I still play play games of 4th Edition with my buddy. Vehicles were neither the kings of the battlefield(thought they were plenty good), nor were they overly nerfed the other way like it sounds like they are going to be now.

You realize by now that Tri-Falcon Eldar were the GK of that generation right? They were indeed the King of the battlefield, alongside Fish of Fury.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Not to be overly snarky, but this is one of the many reasons why I still play play games of 4th Edition with my buddy. Vehicles were neither the kings of the battlefield(thought they were plenty good), nor were they overly nerfed the other way like it sounds like they are going to be now.

You realize by now that Tri-Falcon Eldar were the GK of that generation right? They were indeed the King of the battlefield, alongside Fish of Fury.

Notice the guy says he plays eldar... Maybe he didn't move from 4th because we eldar vehicles were no longer invincible...

OT: Shame about dreadnoughts. I really liked dreads, but if they will just be peppered to death, not much point... :(


Von Chogg

Vaktathi wrote:

Daston wrote:Do we know that it is 1 glance means an auto -1 HP? Or does it depend on what is rolled on the damage table? Ie a crew shaken result might not make it loose a HP

Glances do not roll on a damage table, it's just -1 Hull Point, no other effects. So in some ways it's good, but it means that it's really, really easy to kill them off.

Ah balls :(

No longer possible to make a tank useless with a single glancing hit (weapon destroyed), or invalidate a transport with a single hit (immobilised), and some codexes are capable of spamming so many vehicles that the enemy realistically will not be able to cope.
As far as we know, penetrating damage is the same. So people are getting all hot and bothered over hull points. Well, good luck glancing 9 chimeras and 3 Russes to death at 2,000 points
Next time you play a game with your mech, take a mental note of how many glancing hits your transports get before they get exploded. I mean, if you're relying on glancings to kill Rhinos atm then you're doing something wrong.

Joey wrote:No longer possible to make a tank useless with a single glancing hit (weapon destroyed), or invalidate a transport with a single hit (immobilised), and some codexes are capable of spamming so many vehicles that the enemy realistically will not be able to cope.
As far as we know, penetrating damage is the same. So people are getting all hot and bothered over hull points. Well, good luck glancing 9 chimeras and 3 Russes to death at 2,000 points

It's not too hard, in fact, played a game...two days ago where had we been using hull points (was keeping track after hearing more concrete info about the rumors) I'd likely have been down to 1 vehicle of 11 by my turn 3, whereas with the current rules I was down to 1 of 11 on turn 6. It's not hard to glance a whole lot, lots of CC attacks, necron gauss, scatterlaserspam, etc is all very capable of it. Hell, a 6man Warp Spider squad under the proposed rules will on average kill an AV11 vehicle (Rhino, Ravager, Predator side, etc) with one volley through nothing more than knocking off hull points.

Damnit GW! Why did you make me buy so many Leman Russes! Well I guess human wave can be fun too..... I think I need a new army if this seem to work like I fear, or many more Guardsmen

Land raiders will still be kinda hard to take out.

And their time has passed, a new champion to carry the torch is upon us. War, war never changes.

Vaktathi wrote:

Joey wrote:No longer possible to make a tank useless with a single glancing hit (weapon destroyed), or invalidate a transport with a single hit (immobilised), and some codexes are capable of spamming so many vehicles that the enemy realistically will not be able to cope.
As far as we know, penetrating damage is the same. So people are getting all hot and bothered over hull points. Well, good luck glancing 9 chimeras and 3 Russes to death at 2,000 points

It's not too hard, in fact, played a game...two days ago where had we been using hull points (was keeping track after hearing more concrete info about the rumors) I'd likely have been down to 1 vehicle of 11 by my turn 3, whereas with the current rules I was down to 1 of 11 on turn 6. It's not hard to glance a whole lot, lots of CC attacks, necron gauss, scatterlaserspam, etc is all very capable of it. Hell, a 6man Warp Spider squad under the proposed rules will on average kill an AV11 vehicle (Rhino, Ravager, Predator side, etc) with one volley through nothing more than knocking off hull points.

What you're saying is that it's easy to take out AV12 spam if your opponent knows you're spamming AV12 and brings the tools to deal with it
I mainly play against MEQ, 90% of my tanks are popped by meltas or lascannon penetrations.

Im hoping that as a collecive group we have missed something that makes this rule make sense... the avg list is able to put out a dozen glancing hits/turn vs av12, and easily could get a few vs av13... basically av 14 is the only tough nut to crack but even that is not terribly difficult

chaos0xomega wrote:Im hoping that as a collecive group we have missed something that makes this rule make sense... the avg list is able to put out a dozen glancing hits/turn vs av12, and easily could get a few vs av13... basically av 14 is the only tough nut to crack but even that is not terribly difficult

20 Necron warriors rapid fire so get 40 shots

BS 4 so 2/3 of the shots hit. 26.6' hits which 1/6 of them will glance a land raider giving 4.4' glances. What will destroy it as only 4 Hull Points

20 Warriors I think are cheaper then a land raider (codexs not with me though atm)

Don't need to specifically tool to defeat AV12 spam. Chimeras die to CC attacks and Gauss Spam no differently than Predators, Rhinos, Wave Serpents, Devilfish, Annihilation Barges, Hammerheads, Leman Russ tanks, Ghost Arks, or Battle Wagons, and they aren't exactly immune to lascannons or meltas.

Vaktathi wrote:

Joey wrote:No longer possible to make a tank useless with a single glancing hit (weapon destroyed), or invalidate a transport with a single hit (immobilised), and some codexes are capable of spamming so many vehicles that the enemy realistically will not be able to cope.
As far as we know, penetrating damage is the same. So people are getting all hot and bothered over hull points. Well, good luck glancing 9 chimeras and 3 Russes to death at 2,000 points

It's not too hard, in fact, played a game...two days ago where had we been using hull points (was keeping track after hearing more concrete info about the rumors) I'd likely have been down to 1 vehicle of 11 by my turn 3, whereas with the current rules I was down to 1 of 11 on turn 6. It's not hard to glance a whole lot, lots of CC attacks, necron gauss, scatterlaserspam, etc is all very capable of it. Hell, a 6man Warp Spider squad under the proposed rules will on average kill an AV11 vehicle (Rhino, Ravager, Predator side, etc) with one volley through nothing more than knocking off hull points.

Through dedicated fire (not split fire) missile launcher long fangs should drop one AV12, 3 hull point vehicle per turn. Add in a cyclone missile launcher WG and its almost certain to happen.

Bassline wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Im hoping that as a collecive group we have missed something that makes this rule make sense... the avg list is able to put out a dozen glancing hits/turn vs av12, and easily could get a few vs av13... basically av 14 is the only tough nut to crack but even that is not terribly difficult

20 Necron warriors rapid fire so get 40 shots

BS 4 so 2/3 of the shots hit. 26.6' hits which 1/6 of them will glance a land raider giving 4.4' glances. What will destroy it as only 4 Hull Points

20 Warriors I think are cheaper then a land raider (codexs not with me though atm)

IG veteran squad with meltas can waste Land Raiders in 5th, they're 100 points.
And I think you'll find the contents of that Land Raider will have a thing or two to say to those unmeched warriors standing 12" from their ride


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:Don't need to specifically tool to defeat AV12 spam. Chimeras die to CC attacks and Gauss Spam no differently than Predators, Rhinos, Wave Serpents, Devilfish, Annihilation Barges, Hammerheads, Leman Russ tanks, Ghost Arks, or Battle Wagons, and they aren't exactly immune to lascannons or meltas.

My chimera gets charged by CC, it's dead. Same in 5th.
Or are your chimeras immune to melta bombs and power fists all of a sudden?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jayden63 wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Joey wrote:No longer possible to make a tank useless with a single glancing hit (weapon destroyed), or invalidate a transport with a single hit (immobilised), and some codexes are capable of spamming so many vehicles that the enemy realistically will not be able to cope.
As far as we know, penetrating damage is the same. So people are getting all hot and bothered over hull points. Well, good luck glancing 9 chimeras and 3 Russes to death at 2,000 points

It's not too hard, in fact, played a game...two days ago where had we been using hull points (was keeping track after hearing more concrete info about the rumors) I'd likely have been down to 1 vehicle of 11 by my turn 3, whereas with the current rules I was down to 1 of 11 on turn 6. It's not hard to glance a whole lot, lots of CC attacks, necron gauss, scatterlaserspam, etc is all very capable of it. Hell, a 6man Warp Spider squad under the proposed rules will on average kill an AV11 vehicle (Rhino, Ravager, Predator side, etc) with one volley through nothing more than knocking off hull points.

Through dedicated fire (not split fire) missile launcher long fangs should drop one AV12, 3 hull point vehicle per turn. Add in a cyclone missile launcher WG and its almost certain to happen.

4 missile launchers (correct me if I'm wrong) gives 2.6 hits, half of those will glance or penetrate. So that's 1.3 hull points.

Bassline wrote: 20 Warriors I think are cheaper then a land raider (codexs not with me though atm)

lol... sigged.

Joey wrote:

jayden63 wrote:
Through dedicated fire (not split fire) missile launcher long fangs should drop one AV12, 3 hull point vehicle per turn. Add in a cyclone missile launcher WG and its almost certain to happen.

4 missile launchers (correct me if I'm wrong) gives 2.6 hits, half of those will glance or penetrate. So that's 1.3 hull points.

Full long fangs have 5 missile launchers, cyclone WG adds 2 more. 7 shots. Hitting on 3s is = 4.62 hits. 2.32 hits either glance or pen against AV12. It will only require .64 of luck to get that third HP down.

Jayden63 wrote:

Joey wrote:

jayden63 wrote:
Through dedicated fire (not split fire) missile launcher long fangs should drop one AV12, 3 hull point vehicle per turn. Add in a cyclone missile launcher WG and its almost certain to happen.

4 missile launchers (correct me if I'm wrong) gives 2.6 hits, half of those will glance or penetrate. So that's 1.3 hull points.

Full long fangs have 5 missile launchers, cyclone WG adds 2 more. 7 shots. Hitting on 3s is = 4.62 hits. 2.32 hits either glance or pen against AV12. It will only require .64 of luck to get that third HP down.

Long Fangs base - 75 points, +5 missile launchers 50 points. I don't know what a cyclone WG is.
So you're saying that THE single most undercosted unit in the game MIGHT make its points back in 3 turns of shooting against an uncovered enemy.
Yeah I stand by my point. 125 point unit taking out a 55 point unit isn't exactly great.

3 HP seems a little low, but I think I like this rule better then how things are now. It's a little to easy for one glancing shot to disable my tank for the round.

I'm guessing my new vindicators might suck now :(

gregor_xenos wrote:

Bassline wrote: 20 Warriors I think are cheaper then a land raider (codexs not with me though atm)

lol... sigged.

Just checked a GKLR is 255 with no upgrades and with upgrades it take you to above 260 points, and 20 warriors is 260 points.

Tiger9gamer wrote:I'm guessing my new vindicators might suck now :(

Old rules -
single glancing hit. Rolls a 5, your weapon is destroyed. Seeya!
New rules -
Can take a few hits before being taken out.
So, no.