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It seems right now the best thing Eldar will have going for them in 6th is that their "Dreadnaught" ala Wraithlord escapes the use of Hull points.

My two Falcon/Wave Serpents and a couple of Vypers sound like they aren't going to last very long............

Vaktathi wrote:A new codex isn't going to change the problem that pretty much every vehicle Eldar have fall into the same area as razorbacks and chimeras do when it comes to hull points, as everything they have is AV10-12 and that is highly unlikely to change.

Also...Sisters still need a real update

When Razorbacks and Chimeras cost 130 points each, then they'll have the same problem Eldar do.

Eldar also lost the ability to threaten CC termis in melee due to power weapons being nerfed. And since 6th edition says you can't assault the turn you disembark even if the transport doesn't move (unless you have assault ramps), the fragile Eldar CC units now have to weather a turn of shooting before making an assault move. And then they have to get shot at again in overwatch. And then they can assault IF the opponent didn't spend the disembarking turn simply moving away.

Mech Eldar is officially dead. Footdar is dead. Our psychic powers have largely been shared with other armies, not to mention other armies get access to a greater range of powers. War Walkers and Vypers are AV10, just 2 hull points, and now die quickly to bolter fire. Not to mention their previously-small profile vs template weapons is pretty much meaningless now since all parts of templates do full damage. Seer councils are dead due to so much anti-psyker, jetbikes no longer getting 3+ cover saves, and witchblades being nerfed down to 3+2D6 vs vehicles. The Witchblade nerf was a very specific nerf targeted directly at the already underpowered, old Eldar codex that was being hit with a slew of other nerfs. Why on earth did GW deem it necessary???

AegisGrimm wrote:It seems right now the best thing Eldar will have going for them in 6th is that their "Dreadnaught" ala Wraithlord escapes the use of Hull points.

My two Falcon/Wave Serpents and a couple of Vypers sound like they aren't going to last very long............

Wraithlords fold super quickly against all the AP2-3 weaponry out there. And with 5+ cover they're going to go down even faster now.

mercury14 wrote:

When Razorbacks and Chimeras cost 130 points each, then they'll have the same problem Eldar do.

I was pointing out that yeah, it hurt Eldar a lot more, it also Hellhounds, Dreadnoughts, Basilisks, etc are also just as afftected by these things as anything Eldar and do cost ~130 points. That's what I was trying to point out.

Eldar also lost the ability to threaten CC termis in melee due to power weapons being nerfed. And since 6th edition says you can't assault the turn you disembark even if the transport doesn't move (unless you have assault ramps), the fragile Eldar CC units now have to weather a turn of shooting before making an assault move. And then they have to get shot at again in overwatch. And then they can assault IF the opponent didn't spend the disembarking turn simply moving away.

Mech Eldar is officially dead. Footdar is dead. Our psychic powers have largely been shared with other armies, not to mention other armies get access to a greater range of powers. War Walkers and Vypers are AV10, just 2 hull points, and now die quickly to bolter fire. Not to mention their previously-small profile vs template weapons is pretty much meaningless now since all parts of templates do full damage. Seer councils are dead due to so much anti-psyker, jetbikes no longer getting 3+ cover saves, and witchblades being nerfed down to 3+2D6 vs vehicles. The Witchblade nerf was a very specific nerf targeted directly at the already underpowered, old Eldar codex that was being hit with a slew of other nerfs. Why on earth did GW deem it necessary???

Just Because.

Well, at least Basilisks have the option of firing indirectly, and since you don't have to hit vehicles with the center of the template, that S9 (does ordnance still get 2d6 pick highest?) is quite potent. On top of that, if you really want to, you can always have guaranteed terrain to hide it behind.

I am thinking that the survivabilty of the transports is going to boil down to who gets to go first turn. I know in 5th that only one list mattered against me in who went first...the razorback spam. 2/2 games against this army in 5th took out every single bit of mobility in my list. 7-8 transports rhinos/razorbacks 1 game, and a stormraven, 2 land raiders, an 2 rhinos/razorbacks the 2nd game. It looks as though any army that can glance av11 and 12 will be able to do the same as a RB spam list turn one possibly. I am not changing my list anytime soon I want to play test a couple months. The mobilty is great now and as said the transports are cheap...so baring how my turn ones go will dictate if they stay or not in my list.

There are heavy pros and cons to the transports now, more so than in 5th imo.

Also dreadnoughts dont seem so great in CC imo either since 3 glances wreck it...you don't even need a hammer or fist any more to fight these guys or a lucky grenade.

First turn is not as huge due to Night Fighting being in effect. The heavy weapons shooting at your vehicles will undoubtedly be more than 24" away, so all your vehicles have automatic 5+ cover saves (or better if they already have a cover save).

Omegus wrote:Well, at least Basilisks have the option of firing indirectly, and since you don't have to hit vehicles with the center of the template, that S9 (does ordnance still get 2d6 pick highest?) is quite potent. On top of that, if you really want to, you can always have guaranteed terrain to hide it behind.

With a minimum range of 36" that encompasses most of the board typically (meaning it can't indirect fire at anything closer than 36"), and with all the flyers/outflankers/deep striking units in the game (not to mention helps to outflanking and DS'ing units in the 6E rumors), they likely won't last long sadly


Still doesn't help stuff like dreads, ravagers, hellhounds, etc :(

It just makes me mad seeing that I invested so much time and money into an army that used to be pretty good get such a big hit. Same thing with my friend's eldar list - wave serpents are now over priced tin cans.
I'll play a few games with my list and see what happens before I really start to squeal. But yeah looks like flyers will be king. and massed fire str4+ infantry.

Razgryz wrote:

It just means that players can't rely on transports to govern the flow of the game. Especially with the extra modifiers for AP2 and 1 weapons, melta got a lot more deadly.

The old penetrating table had 5 being wrecked and 6 being explodes
the new pen table has only 6 being explodes.

old stype ap2 weapons go +0 and ap1 got +1
new styel ap2 get +1 and ap1 get +2

so basically a lascannon has the same chance it did in 5th to destroy a rhino in one shot
a melta gun also has the same chance to destroy a rhino in one shot.
Autocannons and missile launchers now have 1/2 the chance to destroy a vehicle in one shot, but can now glance things to death.

I forgot about the new night fight rules. Not so bad then.

Lootas are going to be very powerful under the new rules, almost absurdly so against anything that isn't AV13.

A full squad of lootas is practically assured to kill off anything less than AV13 under the new rules unless it rolls min shots.

Against AV12 with max shots they'll inflict 5 glances/pen's on average, with 2 shots each they'll inflict 3.33 (enough to kill anything with AV12), and with 1 shot they'll inflict 1.66 (so usually 2).

Against anything AV11 or under, even rolling minimum shots, they'll likely kill it regardless.
.

As much as I liked my chimeras, I do like this vehicle change... at least in theory. That many missiles flying at a single transport should blow it out of the water.

That said, I do really feel for the Eldar players. Still, their book has been behind the curve for a while now, and they should be getting updated relatively soon. And who knows what the accompanying FAQs will do.

michaelcycle wrote:
Vehicle and Damage
- New Vehicle Damage Chart, one to rule them all. 1-2 being Shaken, 3 Stunned, 4 and 5 Weapon Destroyed and Immobilised, and 6 Explodes! You only roll the table if the shot penetrate the Armour. Wrecks occur only from taking certain amount of Glancing Hits.
- Hull Points - a new style "wound" for vehicles. Any Glancing Hits removes 1 Hull Point, Penetrate Hit removes 1 Hull Point as well as rolling on the Damage Chart above. If reduced to 0 HP, the vehicle becomes Wreck.
- Vehicles has 3 or 4 HP, notable 4 HP vehicles are Ghost Ark, Land Raider, and Monolith.

If I read this right, 20 Necron Warriors become deadly against a land raider. Surround the land raider and glance it to death with shooting, killing everything inside because they can't disembark, No risk of blowing it up and getting assaulted the next turn (which is exactly what happens in 5e) because you don't "get to" roll on the damage table for glances.

Vaktathi wrote:Lootas are going to be very powerful under the new rules, almost absurdly so against anything that isn't AV13.
A full squad of lootas is practically assured to kill off anything less than AV13 under the new rules unless it rolls min shots.
Against AV12 with max shots they'll inflict 5 glances/pen's on average, with 2 shots each they'll inflict 3.33 (enough to kill anything with AV12), and with 1 shot they'll inflict 1.66 (so usually 2).
Against anything AV11 or under, even rolling minimum shots, they'll likely kill it regardless.
.

Against anything in 5+ cover, you get:
15 shots - 5 hits - 1.67 glance/pen - 1.1 get through cover.
30 shots - 10 hits - 3.33 glance/pen , 2.2 get through cover
45 shots - 15 hits - 5 glance/pen, 3.3 get through cover
Against AV13, halve all results.

Color me unimpressed. On average, they will fail to hull point to death an AV12 unless parked in the open, and they roll max shots.
That's a 225 point anti-tank unit that has T4 and 6+ save, and each wound cuts into their fire power.
3 Chimeras with heavy stubbers show up at 195. If they shoot first, and both sides have cover, The chimmeras should sweep them from the table.
How about 3 hydras, also 225 points. They fair pretty well in that shoot out as well.

I think people are hitting the panic button way too early.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Lootas are going to be very powerful under the new rules, almost absurdly so against anything that isn't AV13.
A full squad of lootas is practically assured to kill off anything less than AV13 under the new rules unless it rolls min shots.
Against AV12 with max shots they'll inflict 5 glances/pen's on average, with 2 shots each they'll inflict 3.33 (enough to kill anything with AV12), and with 1 shot they'll inflict 1.66 (so usually 2).
Against anything AV11 or under, even rolling minimum shots, they'll likely kill it regardless.
.

Against anything in 5+ cover, you get:
15 shots - 5 hits - 1.67 glance/pen - 1.1 get through cover.
30 shots - 10 hits - 3.33 glance/pen , 2.2 get through cover
45 shots - 15 hits - 5 glance/pen, 3.3 get through cover
Against AV13, halve all results.

Color me unimpressed. On average, they will fail to hull point to death an AV12 unless parked in the open, and they roll max shots.
That's a 225 point anti-tank unit that has T4 and 6+ save, and each wound cuts into their fire power.
3 Chimeras with heavy stubbers show up at 195. If they shoot first, and both sides have cover, The chimmeras should sweep them from the table.
How about 3 hydras, also 225 points. They fair pretty well in that shoot out as well.

I think people are hitting the panic button way too early.

-Matt

keep in mind that requires the vehicles to get cover, not always possible by any means even in 5E, and there are AV12 tanks in the game other than cheap anti-infantry platforms, you're basically comparing them to quite possibly the best anti-infantry platforms to throw against them (and lets not forget that you can't buy chimeras on their own, and very few people takes stubbers). Against Stormravens, Hellhounds, Fire Prisms, etc, they will be very scary indeed.

mercury14 wrote:Wraithlords fold super quickly against all the AP2-3 weaponry out there. And with 5+ cover they're going to go down even faster now.

My primary question is: have the rules for determining a glancing hit changed at all? Is it still based on equalling the AV of the target facing?

If so you people need to stop complaing about Eldar being ruined. It is a rare day indeed when a unit with rapid fire weapons (that aren't plasma guns!) gets glancing hits on anything that is AV10, and pretty much impossible for them to do so against AV12. A bolter would need an 8 on the penetration die to reach 12...d6s stop at 6, so no worry there. Now if they changed glancing hits to be any hit that doesn't penetrate then everyone is equally screwed. If not, what exactly is the big problem here?

There have been a number of complaints that the Cover save of 5+ is useless, but at the same time assuming that those firing bolters can *easily* roll a 6 on the penetration roll. So which is it? Impossible or easy? You can't have it both ways. Against really light vehicles concentrated rapid fire weapons can get the job done, but that only makes sense. A Vyper isn't a battle tank it is a lightly armored assault vehicle. It isn't supposed to run into close range and let a bunch of marines just open up on it at close range and if you let that happen then you can't complain when your vyper is destroyed. Keep it moving. Take advantage of its longer ranged heavy weapon and you have no worries. Facing IG with lasguns? Well then your AV10 vyper has nothing to fear at all since a lasgun cannot even glance AV10.

Most of the glancing hits will come from the heavy weapons in an army, not from rapid fire weapons and these weapons already would regularly do in your typical AV10 Vyper anyway. So what exactly have you lost? Not a whole lot really. Eldar aren't ruined. Not even close.

The only army that gets any kind of unfair advantage with hull points is the Necrons with their gauss weapons. Everyone else is in the same boat: Rapid fire weapons aren't going to be causing all that many more glancing hits now than they ever have.

Skriker

Skriker wrote: It is a rare day indeed when a unit with rapid fire weapons (that aren't plasma guns!) gets glancing hits on anything that is AV10, and pretty much impossible for them to do so against AV12.

Since I'm a smart ass: Necron Warriors have rapid fire guns that can glance AV12.

Platuan4th wrote:

Skriker wrote: It is a rare day indeed when a unit with rapid fire weapons (that aren't plasma guns!) gets glancing hits on anything that is AV10, and pretty much impossible for them to do so against AV12.

Since I'm a smart ass: Necron Warriors have rapid fire guns that can glance AV12.

In fact against AV14 they have the same chance as AV10 or 12.

It's the hull points that's the problem. Before you could get glanced 6 times on 1 tank and the guy rolls a combination of 1-2s maybe a 3...and your tank was still alive...now it's dead on that 3rd glance. The problem is glances on hull points is kinda powerful IMO.

Skriker wrote:

My primary question is: have the rules for determining a glancing hit changed at all? Is it still based on equalling the AV of the target facing?

If so you people need to stop complaing about Eldar being ruined. It is a rare day indeed when a unit with rapid fire weapons (that aren't plasma guns!) gets glancing hits on anything that is AV10, and pretty much impossible for them to do so against AV12. A bolter would need an 8 on the penetration die to reach 12...d6s stop at 6, so no worry there. Now if they changed glancing hits to be any hit that doesn't penetrate then everyone is equally screwed. If not, what exactly is the big problem here?

There have been a number of complaints that the Cover save of 5+ is useless, but at the same time assuming that those firing bolters can *easily* roll a 6 on the penetration roll. So which is it? Impossible or easy? You can't have it both ways. Against really light vehicles concentrated rapid fire weapons can get the job done, but that only makes sense. A Vyper isn't a battle tank it is a lightly armored assault vehicle. It isn't supposed to run into close range and let a bunch of marines just open up on it at close range and if you let that happen then you can't complain when your vyper is destroyed. Keep it moving. Take advantage of its longer ranged heavy weapon and you have no worries. Facing IG with lasguns? Well then your AV10 vyper has nothing to fear at all since a lasgun cannot even glance AV10.

Most of the glancing hits will come from the heavy weapons in an army, not from rapid fire weapons and these weapons already would regularly do in your typical AV10 Vyper anyway. So what exactly have you lost? Not a whole lot really. Eldar aren't ruined. Not even close.

The only army that gets any kind of unfair advantage with hull points is the Necrons with their gauss weapons. Everyone else is in the same boat: Rapid fire weapons aren't going to be causing all that many more glancing hits now than they ever have.

Skriker

This post is really kind of absurd and denies reality. Str4 and up guns will take a hull point from a War Walker or Vyper - and they only have two hull points. They were already low durability units as you say, but then 6e came along and they went from fragile to so delicate any light breeze can kill them. Staying out of range isn't really an option in a game full of flyers, deep strikers, fast units, and long-range weaponry. And our War Walkers move 6 inches - how do you expect them to stay out of range? Scatter lasers are only 36" bro.

But the biggest problem isn't these two units. It's our Wave Serpents and Falcons. Eldar rely on their high-tech, expensive vehicles with staying power to provide them mobility to help control the battle. But 6e turned our beautiful skimmers into overpriced tin cans that aren't much harder to kill than a 35 pt Rhino.

Most heinous is the change to disembarking troops. We now have to:

Turn 1) Zoom up in a Wave Serpent
Turn 2) Disembark Banshees. But they can't assault the turn they disembarked so they have to stand around in the open, getting shot to pieces with T3 and light armor.
Turn 3a) If the enemy is still in range (and they could have easily just walked away the turn the Banshees had to burn doing nothing), they may initiate assault.
Turn 3b) The Banshees face a second round of shooting when initiating assault.

The nerf to cover hurts us more than T4 armies. T3 Eldar take a ton of wounds and relying on 5+ cover against newly improved Rapid-Fire weapons is a bloody mess. Guardians went from crappy to completely unplayable. Our Rangers and Pathfinders lost their greatest asset and are now easily shootable. And our Jetbikes no longer get a 3+ cover save. And oh by the way, we have exactly zero options to combat Termis in CC with the power weapon nerf. I could go on.

Our glass cannon is basically just glass now. It's a plain fact in so many ways. I really have no idea how you could deny it.

While i agree with you, you have one (count em...one) option vs termies IIRC

Scorpion Exarchs can take a scorpion claw (powerfist) i think.

But yes, if you aren't T4, 3+ armour you're basically fethed, as far as i can see from the rumours so far. Wish i could say i'm surprised, but i'm not .

Our Rangers and Pathfinders lost their greatest asset and are now easily shootable.

You lost your AP1 on a 5/6? you lost +2 to cover? The gained 6 to pick your wound target nerfs you somehow?

Str4 and up guns will take a hull point from a War Walker or Vyper - and they only have two hull points. They were already low durability units as you say, but then 6e came along and they went from fragile to so delicate any light breeze can kill them. Staying out of range isn't really an option in a game full of flyers, deep strikers, fast units, and long-range weaponry. And our War Walkers move 6 inches - how do you expect them to stay out of range? Scatter lasers are only 36" bro.

Hmm, how many S4 guns shoot within 36"? And even than you'd have a max of about 10 to 15 models at that range, unless somehow your just letting these units getting into range to rapid fire you to glance you to death. As for the rest, yeah it'll hurt, it hurt before, except now if your lucky you still get to actually shoot rather than stand there doing nothing an entire round.

And our Jetbikes no longer get a 3+ cover save.

5+ always, 4+ if moving fast, +1 to both with skilled rider.

And oh by the way, we have exactly zero options to combat Termis in CC with the power weapon nerf. I could go on.

Depending on how it goes, we need to see what weapons for Eldar remain AP3 and the like.

Turn 1) Zoom up in a Wave Serpent
Turn 2) Disembark Banshees. But they can't assault the turn they disembarked so they have to stand around in the open, getting shot to pieces with T3 and light armor.
Turn 3a) If the enemy is still in range (and they could have easily just walked away the turn the Banshees had to burn doing nothing), they may initiate assault.

That's..how it works in 5th too? With the exception of overwatch regardless.

Ascalam wrote:While i agree with you, you have one (count em...one) option vs termies IIRC

Scorpion Exarchs can take a scorpion claw (powerfist) i think.

But yes, if you aren't T4, 3+ armour you're basically fethed, as far as i can see from the rumours so far. Wish i could say i'm surprised, but i'm not .

Yeah lol. But that Exarch is in an anti-horde unit that's unable to stand up to CC termis in the least bit. And on average he'll only kill one, unless it has a storm shield then he's not even likely to do that.

True enough. Just being pedantic

Frankly termies are going to be broken enough now, even without the Storm Shields etc.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
You lost your AP1 on a 5/6? you lost +2 to cover? The gained 6 to pick your wound target nerfs you somehow?

Key phrase here, 'wound target'. That shot still has to roll a 4. That's a useful buff, but the nerf here is that Rangers now have a lame 4+ cover save and are extremely shootable. Even Pathfinders will die twice as quickly as in 5e. That's a huge nerf.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Hmm, how many S4 guns shoot within 36"? And even than you'd have a max of about 10 to 15 models at that range, unless somehow your just letting these units getting into range to rapid fire you to glance you to death. As for the rest, yeah it'll hurt, it hurt before, except now if your lucky you still get to actually shoot rather than stand there doing nothing an entire round.

I'm not terribly concerned about Vypers going down to bolter fire. But slow War Walkers will die to virtually every weapon in the game now. WWs were one of the two or three options in our Codex that weren't overpriced. They're still playable now, but with 2 hull points they can no longer be considered a very good unit. Also keep in mind that templates do full damage on all parts of the plate, meaning WW squadrons are going to get multi-spanked now. I really don't see how you aren't seeing a nerf here.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
5+ always, 4+ if moving fast, +1 to both with skilled rider.

Skilled Rider? Are you suggesting that Shining Spears are playable? I hope not.

I'd much rather have the 3+ cover save than the new rules. Jetbikes are objective snatchers/contesters and that 3+ save was always crucial to that role for avoiding small arms fire. If Jetbikes were combat units then I'd agree with you the new way is better. But they're just not. This is definitely a nerf.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Depending on how it goes, we need to see what weapons for Eldar remain AP3 and the like.

Yeah I guess we'll see. Because right now it looks completely grim.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:That's..how it works in 5th too? With the exception of overwatch regardless.

No, it's not the same at all. In 6e, units may not assault the turn they disembark even if their transport is stationary. The only exception is assault vehicles.

In 5e you could disembark Banshees/etc and assault if your WS hadn't moved yet. In 6e Banshees have to stand there doing nothing for one turn while they get annihilated. Then any survivors have to endure a phase of overwatch shooting. 2 rounds of shooting hurts more than 0. That's a nerf in my book. A monumentally huge one that renders a huge range of our units unplayable.

No, it's not the same at all. In 6e, units may not assault the turn they disembark even if their transport is stationary. The only exception is assault vehicles.

In 5e you could disembark Banshees/etc and assault if your WS hadn't moved yet. In 6e Banshees have to stand there doing nothing for one turn while they get annihilated. Then any survivors have to endure a phase of overwatch shooting. 2 rounds of shooting hurts more than 0. That's a nerf in my book. A monumentally huge one that renders a huge range of our units unplayable.

I've not heard this at all, considering

Can units move after they disembark if the tank has previously moved?

- Passenger can only disembark if vehicle move 0-6".

- Disembarking rules changes, you now place models in base contact with the access point and move up to 6" - this is the furthest distance the unit may move.

[–]Rixitotal[S] 4 points 52 minutes ago
yes.

[–]skarred 1 point 51 minutes ago
so this cancelles out the nerf to open topped vehicles! WOOOO (thats right right?) I can move tank 6, disembark squad, they move 6, then charge 2D6? Yes, yes! Make my day here...

[–]Rixitotal[S] 4 points 48 minutes ago
yes that right. sorry if i wasn't clear! lol. so ..many..questions

Key phrase here, 'wound target'. That shot still has to roll a 4. That's a useful buff, but the nerf here is that Rangers now have a lame 4+ cover save and are extremely shootable. Even Pathfinders will die twice as quickly as in 5e. That's a huge nerf.

Seeing as that was the exact same in the version they were introduced (4th), and the fact they are now actually worthwhile by shooting things. I'd say the buff overcomes the nerf.

I'm not terribly concerned about Vypers going down to bolter fire. But slow War Walkers will die to virtually every weapon in the game now. WWs were one of the two or three options in our Codex that weren't overpriced. They're still playable now, but with 2 hull points they can no longer be considered a very good unit. Also keep in mind that templates do full damage on all parts of the plate, meaning WW squadrons are going to get multi-spanked now. I really don't see how you aren't seeing a nerf here.

Yes it is a nerf, it means vehicles will die before 5th round yes, but eldar isn't exactly a codex with properly costed vehicles (in 5th or 6th..or 4th really), this is one that has to be fixed by an actual codex update.

Skilled Rider? Are you suggesting that Shining Spears are playable? I hope not.

Some people still use them, plus I forgot that standard jetbikes can't get it, my bad.

Yeah I guess we'll see. Because right now it looks completely grim.

Having checked the book, mirrorswords ignore all armor, that likely will end up as AP2, but that's not much of a consolation just to have the exarch as the killer.

I think this change does hurt armies that are dependent on transports (relative to the current ruleset). However, given the ubiquity of metal boxes in lists, they probably needed a bit of a kicking down.

I use Necrons, so I obviously (potentially) benefit from the glancing wounds (especially if rapid fire changes too). However, I think this only really helps with transports.

My most common enemy is Tau, and the big tanks shoot from a long way away. Necrons aren't easily getting a large volume of glances at that range. Frankly, if I was, I'd be happy under the current ruleset, as I'm sure I'd get at least one 'weapon destroyed'.

At the moment, I kill them with Overlords in Barges. I don't think this will change if the new rules are as indicated.

I can't wait to try out some voltaic staffs on Crypteks now! Sure you gotta get a little close, but attatch 2 to some warrior squads holed up in ghost arcs.../drool.

Firstly, to everyone complaining their vehicles will get glanced to death.. Why are you not in cover? A vehicle with 2-3 Hull points sitting in cover/ behind smoke launchers ect is going to be -more- survivable than the same vehicle in 5e. I agree that the rules aren't going to make -everything- better; theres no way one set of sweeping rules can improve every single aspect of the game, however, i think hull points are going to make a lot of thing much better. From my reading of the info in this thread, it looks like vehicles are going to be tougher against single high-strength attacks, but fall easier to multiple lower strength attacks. Which is going to shift the meta away from the -need- to take str9-10 weapons just to deal with Land Raiders/ Monoliths.

Secondly, to eldar players. Yeah, the rules don't look to great for you just now; But your codex is a bit old now, almost 2 editions behind. I fully believe when it gets updated you will be much more competative, and you'll get your cheap-ass 45point transport skimmer with a 5+ inv, as well as some kind of techy flyers.

Don't sweat it.

Wait till the rules are out; play a few game; see how things work

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

No, it's not the same at all. In 6e, units may not assault the turn they disembark even if their transport is stationary. The only exception is assault vehicles.

In 5e you could disembark Banshees/etc and assault if your WS hadn't moved yet. In 6e Banshees have to stand there doing nothing for one turn while they get annihilated. Then any survivors have to endure a phase of overwatch shooting. 2 rounds of shooting hurts more than 0. That's a nerf in my book. A monumentally huge one that renders a huge range of our units unplayable.

I've not heard this at all, considering

Can units move after they disembark if the tank has previously moved?

- Passenger can only disembark if vehicle move 0-6".

- Disembarking rules changes, you now place models in base contact with the access point and move up to 6" - this is the furthest distance the unit may move.

[–]Rixitotal[S] 4 points 52 minutes ago
yes.

[–]skarred 1 point 51 minutes ago
so this cancelles out the nerf to open topped vehicles! WOOOO (thats right right?) I can move tank 6, disembark squad, they move 6, then charge 2D6? Yes, yes! Make my day here...

[–]Rixitotal[S] 4 points 48 minutes ago
yes that right. sorry if i wasn't clear! lol. so ..many..questions

Your quote doesn't disprove anything I said, other than add in that open-topped transports have the same advantage as assault vehicles. WS are neither open-topped nor assault vehicles, therefore their troops cannot assault the same turn they disembark. Over on Warseer there are multiple people claiming to have the book who are stating this. Apparently it's on page 79. http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?329875-Official-WarSeer-Warhammer-40-000-6th-Edition-discussion-thread/page207

And while I'm at it, Witchblades got nerfed. Instead of str9 vs vehicles they're str3 + 2d6. Ugh.

Hetelic wrote:Firstly, to everyone complaining their vehicles will get glanced to death.. Why are you not in cover? A vehicle with 2-3 Hull points sitting in cover/ behind smoke launchers ect is going to be -more- survivable than the same vehicle in 5e. I agree that the rules aren't going to make -everything- better; theres no way one set of sweeping rules can improve every single aspect of the game, however, i think hull points are going to make a lot of thing much better. From my reading of the info in this thread, it looks like vehicles are going to be tougher against single high-strength attacks, but fall easier to multiple lower strength attacks. Which is going to shift the meta away from the -need- to take str9-10 weapons just to deal with Land Raiders/ Monoliths.

Secondly, to eldar players. Yeah, the rules don't look to great for you just now; But your codex is a bit old now, almost 2 editions behind. I fully believe when it gets updated you will be much more competative, and you'll get your cheap-ass 45point transport skimmer with a 5+ inv, as well as some kind of techy flyers.

Don't sweat it.

Wait till the rules are out; play a few game; see how things work

I don't know about anyone else, but I usually kept my WWs in cover in 5e. I'll do the same in 6e, only my WWs will die much more easily. Also there's a new rule where you can target models not in cover when the majority of the unit is. That way there's no cover save but hits can only be applied to the part of the unit not in cover. So no more putting 2 WWs in cover while the third sticks out for a nice line of fire.