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 Capamaru wrote:
Yes they are and at 17 points a piece they are gonna cause all kind of problems.. If only we had some new models.

At 17 points and now BS4 and rending weapons they're easily better than Marines considering their mobility. Playing Eldar properly will get expensive now considering you'll want two dozen of those guys and have to convert them from Dark Eldar bikes.

Im not getting the excitement about warlocks with gjb squads. Warlocks now have to pass psychic tests at ld 8. Unless they have a way to help them do that, all they're going to do is fail each turn until they perils. Im very disappointed as I really wanted to use warlocks more this edition.

 Therion wrote:
At 17 points and now BS4 and rending weapons they're easily better than Marines considering their mobility. Playing Eldar properly will get expensive now considering you'll want two dozen of those guys and have to convert them from Dark Eldar bikes.

Yeah I thought that, they were good before and now they've got buffed BS, pseudorending AND a substantial price drop. What the hell. Personally I'm ok with just switching the heads (and maybe torsos) from Guardians, they look good enough to me like that. Also Reavers are £24 for 3 and EJBs are £20 for 3, not a lot I know but it adds up.

On a side note, has anyone heard anything more about this supposed 'Laser Lock' rule on the Scatter Laser? I really want to know if its as good as I've heard!

Im not getting the excitement about warlocks with gjb squads.

A 17 point model with BS4, T4, 4+ armour save, jetbike movement, a 2 shot twin linked 'rending' weapon, and access to a cheap shuriken cannon which is a 'sort of' assault cannon now? What's not to get excited about? Warlocks or not that's one of the best scoring units in the game.

Personally I'm ok with just switching the heads (and maybe torsos) from Guardians

For a gaming army there's no point converting much else than the heads. Especially if a tiny bit spiky bikes fit your theme. My Eldar craftworld were always painted with black, purple and white and an overall dark theme anyway so it wouldn't matter one bit.

It would be so hilarious if the Jetbikes end up becoming all the rage so GW will sell every Eldar player 30 of them. We'll get five or six years out of them untill a new Eldar codex nerfs them to hell and makes us buy something else.

 Therion wrote:

Im not getting the excitement about warlocks with gjb squads.

A 17 point model with BS4, T4, 4+ armour save, jetbike movement, a 2 shot twin linked 'rending' weapon, and access to a cheap shuriken cannon which is a 'sort of' assault cannon now? What's not to get excited about? Warlocks or not that's one of the best scoring units in the game.

Personally I'm ok with just switching the heads (and maybe torsos) from Guardians

For a gaming army there's no point converting much else than the heads. Especially if a tiny bit spiky bikes fit your theme. My Eldar craftworld were always painted with black, purple and white and an overall dark theme anyway so it wouldn't matter one bit.

Just to make them better, they're actually 3+ saves.

Just to make them better, they're actually 3+ saves.

Now that makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. That's a legit crazy good unit for 17 points. I'll go out on a limb and call them the best scoring unit in the game right away. If you compare them to say 15 point Tactical Marines, that 2 points seems to buy an awful lot.

So what do we have here that seems to be good? Jetbikes and Wraithguard of all types and weapon loadouts. Wave Serpents seem sturdy especially if shrouded somehow, so that transport is definately usable now. Fire Dragons are still Fire Dragons. So take a Wraithseer that makes the Wraithguard troops, two units of Wraithguard with the AP2 flamers, four units of Jetbikes, 3 units of Dragons as elites, and five Wave Serpents to ship them around. Add Warlocks to every squad and hopefully give them some gear that makes them protected vs Perils. That type of core loadout seems to have answers for everything since it's fast, sturdy (3+ saves for everyone), consists only of points efficient units, and brings a ton of meltaguns, ap2 flamers and rending shuricats. Now the army just needs something to deal with flyers, so maybe an Aegis Defence Line crowded with Dark Reapers (more 3+ saves).

Yeah Jetbikes are looking insane value points wise. The only downside for me is it can be tricky to fit them all on a busy battlefield compared to normal units, especially against an assault based army.

Also I assume Wraithsight has gone if we can't add Warlocks to Wraithguard squads any more?

 shamikebab wrote:
Yeah Jetbikes are looking insane value points wise. The only downside for me is it can be tricky to fit them all on a busy battlefield compared to normal units, especially against an assault based army.

Also I assume Wraithsight has gone if we can't add Warlocks to Wraithguard squads any more?

I read that it's gone, but I also read somewhere you can still attach those Wraithseers into Wraith units.

 ColdSadHungry wrote:
Im not getting the excitement about warlocks with gjb squads. Warlocks now have to pass psychic tests at ld 8. Unless they have a way to help them do that, all they're going to do is fail each turn until they perils. Im very disappointed as I really wanted to use warlocks more this edition.

Ahh, internet hyperbole how I loath thee....with ld 8 they will fail 27.8% of the time. Thats hardly each turn...That said, EJBs are mean as feth even without an attatched warlock

 Therion wrote:

 shamikebab wrote:
Yeah Jetbikes are looking insane value points wise. The only downside for me is it can be tricky to fit them all on a busy battlefield compared to normal units, especially against an assault based army.

Also I assume Wraithsight has gone if we can't add Warlocks to Wraithguard squads any more?

I read that it's gone, but I also read somewhere you can still attach those Wraithseers into Wraith units.

The spirit seer is a cross between a farseer and a warlock being ML 2 yet it acts like a warlock in terms of picking discipline, but can also roll for telepathy.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Morachi wrote:
I'm well aware they were called Vyper Jetbikes back in the day (must dig up my old "Space Marine" box set somewhere).

It's not just 'back in the day'. They've always been called Vyper Jetbikes. They're listed as such on the GW website.

I'm looking at my 4th Ed, 3rd Ed, 3rd Ed CWE, Eye of Terror Codex - each deliberately make no mention of "Jetbike", only "Vyper" and "Vyper Squadron". The only previous mention of it in 40k was during 2nd Edition and that was before the model came out. I believe the website has also been revised. So perhaps "always" isn't the best word when over half the publications mentioning them prove otherwise. Just sayin'.

As mentioned before, this was probably to delineate them so the Jetbike rule (movement in the Assault phase) wasn't mistakenly applied.

1. Can a Spirit Seer take those Relics (all of them?)?

2. If you take the "Mantle of the Laughing god", you lose your Indep. Char. status. Do you remain a Character (importent for challenges...)?

3. Weaponplatform/Spec.Weapon price for Guardians?

4.Does the Spirit Seer get a pistol? Is his "Weapon" twohanded?

greetings Badger

 xttz wrote:

Oryza Sativa wrote:


The Avatar is still monstrously powerful.

Why? It went up by 40pts for I10 and Fleet, but dropped the invuln to 5++ which effectively cancels out the extra wound. The Wailing Doom is also effectively twin-linked due to BS10, but with that range how often did anyone really fire it in a game anyway?

The Exarch powers might be useful if they don't cost any extra, but I'm not sure it has the survivability it needs.

If I read everything correctly, you can upgrade the Avatar to get an extra shot, and he now has fleet and can run-shoot, so The Wailing Doom could easily become an often-used ranged weapon. Someone had mentioned a few pages back that the Avatar would actually perform better than a squad of Fire Dragons in a Falcon under this role. I am just concerned if it lost MC status, because you really need that in order to take advantage of his AP1 against vehicles in assault (Edit: If The Wailing Doom counts as having the melta rule in assault, that would do just fine by itself, but using a S10 Smash Attack with an AP1 melta weapon could be pretty over-the-top). As for survivability, if you're also taking a lot of Wraith units it should be difficult to prioritize, and there is also the possibility that the psykers can cast powers out of their own unit to buff the Avatar. You can also purchase the 4++ exarch power.

I was already running a three Talos Dark Eldar list with an allied Avatar, so I'm pretty stoked about throwing in a Wraithknight and having an improved Avatar for some monster-goodness.

There is no way that the Avatar is no longer a MC, if he lost that then he could be joined by IC and the like. I don't think GW would want that happening.

Dual shuricats on DA exarchs going to twin-linked makes me sad, I've got two of those modeled. Time to start checking eBay for some different ones. Also kinda peeved about the same change on Warp Spider exarchs seeing as how that's the only available model option.

Wait, so the autarch path thing granting aspects of that path is not true anymore? What the crap? That was one of the most solid rumors and had me planning a list. Kinda hard to have multiple spider squads and aircraft. So much for a new army until they come up with the rules for that craft world that allows aspects as troops if they ever get to it.

I hope next edition goes back to a percentage system, force org slots suck.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Dual shuricats on DA exarchs going to twin-linked makes me sad, I've got two of those modeled. Time to start checking eBay for some different ones. Also kinda peeved about the same change on Warp Spider exarchs seeing as how that's the only available model option.

But can't the Warp Spider get the Hail of Fire exarch power? So that way he can still shoot twice!

 Oaka wrote:

 xttz wrote:

Oryza Sativa wrote:


The Avatar is still monstrously powerful.

Why? It went up by 40pts for I10 and Fleet, but dropped the invuln to 5++ which effectively cancels out the extra wound. The Wailing Doom is also effectively twin-linked due to BS10, but with that range how often did anyone really fire it in a game anyway?

The Exarch powers might be useful if they don't cost any extra, but I'm not sure it has the survivability it needs.

If I read everything correctly, you can upgrade the Avatar to get an extra shot, and he now has fleet and can run-shoot, so The Wailing Doom could easily become an often-used ranged weapon. Someone had mentioned a few pages back that the Avatar would actually perform better than a squad of Fire Dragons in a Falcon under this role. I am just concerned if it lost MC status, because you really need that in order to take advantage of his AP1 against vehicles in assault (Edit: If The Wailing Doom counts as having the melta rule in assault, that would do just fine by itself, but using a S10 Smash Attack with an AP1 melta weapon could be pretty over-the-top). As for survivability, if you're also taking a lot of Wraith units it should be difficult to prioritize, and there is also the possibility that the psykers can cast powers out of their own unit to buff the Avatar.

MC is now a unit type rather than a special rule, which will be why it's been missed off the leaks we've seen so far (many of the HQ units of the post earlier in this thread didn't show unit types). I have no doubt it'll be an MC.

So for 50pts over the 4th edition price, you get a twin-linked Assault 2 meltagun plus Fleet and I10. However with the invuln change it's no better off with the extra wound. For example, 10 krak missile or lascannon hits would average:

On a 4 wound, 4++ Avatar = 4.1 wounds
On a 5 wound, 5++ Avatar = 5.5 wounds

So it's still dead in the same amount of firepower.

As for psychic powers - we can no longer rely on cheap and easy Fortune as now you will need to roll for it. Plus it's apparently a warp charge 2 power, and less effective with 5++ than 4++.

I really want to like the new Avatar, but it looks like the only way to use it effectively is the Tyranid approach of spamming T6+ units and hope something gets through.

 xttz wrote:

 Oaka wrote:

 xttz wrote:

Oryza Sativa wrote:


The Avatar is still monstrously powerful.

Why? It went up by 40pts for I10 and Fleet, but dropped the invuln to 5++ which effectively cancels out the extra wound. The Wailing Doom is also effectively twin-linked due to BS10, but with that range how often did anyone really fire it in a game anyway?

The Exarch powers might be useful if they don't cost any extra, but I'm not sure it has the survivability it needs.

If I read everything correctly, you can upgrade the Avatar to get an extra shot, and he now has fleet and can run-shoot, so The Wailing Doom could easily become an often-used ranged weapon. Someone had mentioned a few pages back that the Avatar would actually perform better than a squad of Fire Dragons in a Falcon under this role. I am just concerned if it lost MC status, because you really need that in order to take advantage of his AP1 against vehicles in assault (Edit: If The Wailing Doom counts as having the melta rule in assault, that would do just fine by itself, but using a S10 Smash Attack with an AP1 melta weapon could be pretty over-the-top). As for survivability, if you're also taking a lot of Wraith units it should be difficult to prioritize, and there is also the possibility that the psykers can cast powers out of their own unit to buff the Avatar.

MC is now a unit type rather than a special rule, which will be why it's been missed off the leaks we've seen so far (many of the HQ units of the post earlier in this thread didn't show unit types). I have no doubt it'll be an MC.

So for 50pts over the 4th edition price, you get a twin-linked Assault 2 meltagun plus Fleet and I10. However with the invuln change it's no better off with the extra wound. For example, 10 krak missile or lascannon hits would average:

On a 4 wound, 4++ Avatar = 4.1 wounds
On a 5 wound, 5++ Avatar = 5.5 wounds

So it's still dead in the same amount of firepower.

As for psychic powers - we can no longer rely on cheap and easy Fortune as now you will need to roll for it. Plus it's apparently a warp charge 2 power, and less effective with 5++ than 4++.

I really want to like the new Avatar, but it looks like the only way to use it effectively is the Tyranid approach of spamming T6+ units and hope something gets through.

I'll probably be taking him in a 2000 point game so at that point I'll have 2 or more farseers to fortune him. Also when calculating his survivability you didn't take into account that he's faster now due to fleet. Obviously you can't put that into an equation but it does mean him being out in the open less.

The extra wound also helps against anything that doesn't ignore his armour save of course, such as poisoned weapons. And getting a 4+ cover save usually isn't impossible, especially with all the Imperial Ruins most tables have.

 shamikebab wrote:
Also I assume Wraithsight has gone if we can't add Warlocks to Wraithguard squads any more?

The WD batrep has a Warlock attached to a Wraithguard unit..

 xttz wrote:
MC is now a unit type rather than a special rule, which will be why it's been missed off the leaks we've seen so far (many of the HQ units of the post earlier in this thread didn't show unit types). I have no doubt it'll be an MC.

If the reference sheet I've seen is legit (and it seems to be), I can confirm that the Avatar is still a MC.

I think that's a spiritseer actually.

IIRC warlocks can only join guardian squads -- shooty ones, cc ones, jetbike ones and artillery batteries.

 Farseer_Kaiser wrote:

 shamikebab wrote:
Also I assume Wraithsight has gone if we can't add Warlocks to Wraithguard squads any more?

The WD batrep has a Warlock attached to a Wraithguard unit..

Some people seem to be saying that was a mistake! I'd be surprised if Warlocks can't be attached to them though.

I'm just amazed that GW once again creates a crazy good unit (jetbikes) yet completely misses the boat on releasing a model.. The list continues! Drop pods, thunderwolf cav, tervigons, doom, wave serpents back in the day.

It's.. like no one there realizes how good certain units will be or popular they will become. That's not horribly surprising tho.

 Kirasu wrote:
I'm just amazed that GW once again creates a crazy good unit (jetbikes) yet completely misses the boat on releasing a model.. The list continues! Drop pods, thunderwolf cav, tervigons, doom, wave serpents back in the day.

It's.. like no one there realizes how good certain units will be or popular they will become. That's not horribly surprising tho.

Idk, that might be their plan. What Eldar models need updates the most now? Jetbikes and Warpspiders. Which two units got much better? .... Yeah.

I'm wondering if they want to make sure they get rid of their stock of old models before releasing the new ones.

 Red Viper wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
I'm just amazed that GW once again creates a crazy good unit (jetbikes) yet completely misses the boat on releasing a model.. The list continues! Drop pods, thunderwolf cav, tervigons, doom, wave serpents back in the day.

It's.. like no one there realizes how good certain units will be or popular they will become. That's not horribly surprising tho.

Idk, that might be their plan. What Eldar models need updates the most now? Jetbikes and Warpspiders. Which two units got much better? .... Yeah.

I'm wondering if they want to make sure they get rid of their stock of old models before releasing the new ones.

That's the problem tho, I won't be buying the awful old models (I already have 30 spiders tho).. I'll either get DE and convert or find someone else to make the models.

 Kirasu wrote:
I'm just amazed that GW once again creates a crazy good unit (jetbikes) yet completely misses the boat on releasing a model.. The list continues! Drop pods, thunderwolf cav, tervigons, doom, wave serpents back in the day.

It's.. like no one there realizes how good certain units will be or popular they will become. That's not horribly surprising tho.

They still might

IIRC, the reason GW do all the new units first is so that they don't have to put up with things like the 4 million different model companies that started making thunderwolves when GW didn't immediately release one with the SW codex release.

I still reckon theres a second wave at some point.

Edit:And ninja'd

Darge wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
I've been trying to plow thu the rumors so I know how to build my two boxes of dire avengers. Anyone have any recommendations on how I should build the exarchs? I'm assuming units of 10 will be solid?

Honestly if you paying all the money for this game pins/magnets are a must.

I'd invest in a pen drill, Citidel makes one and I've used it and I quite like it, but any will do, the drill bits it comes with are good for pins(buy paper clips and cut them into like 2cm pieces, drill into the models are sockest about a cm and into each arm and either put the pins in each arm or in the torso it self. You can also use multiple pins to have fixed arm positions. Magnets require a larger drill bit or the use of a hobby knife(not recommended) and just glue the magnets in to the arm sockets and arms. On smaller bits(like this exarchs weapon options) I prefer pinning but to each thier own. Also remember the Exarch can use a Power Weapon so you can use any type other than the included Power Lance in the kit using extra bits from other kits.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat470006a&prodId=prod1095460

I like where your head is, and with stuff like Tau or Marine turrets, I do this. But I don't magnetize weapon arms. For me, it's more hassle than it's worth and, quite frankly, I'd rather just buy the extra model.

Which is going to make it really interesting when Kingdom Death: Monster comes out. I may be reevaluating this stance then.

Thanks for the other advice. I think I'll probably go PW/Shield. Cheers!

PredaKhaine wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
I'm just amazed that GW once again creates a crazy good unit (jetbikes) yet completely misses the boat on releasing a model.. The list continues! Drop pods, thunderwolf cav, tervigons, doom, wave serpents back in the day.

It's.. like no one there realizes how good certain units will be or popular they will become. That's not horribly surprising tho.

They still might

IIRC, the reason GW do all the new units first is so that they don't have to put up with things like the 4 million different model companies that started making thunderwolves when GW didn't immediately release one with the SW codex release.

I still reckon theres a second wave at some point.

Edit:And ninja'd

I have a hard time justifying waiting years for a second wave. Unfortunately I enjoy playing so I rather play now, not whenever they get around to releasing jetbikes they've had for 7 years. It's just irritating.