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I've always had a soft spot for these guys, does anyone think of any ways that they might be used more effectively in 6th ed?

Put 'em with a Haemonculus, outflank, pray to god they survive the turn of shooting they'll have to endure when they arrive, pray to god that the enemy doesn't have power armor which will easily stave off your measly three attacks per model, and hope that the overwatch doesn't get you too badly when you try to assault something.

Really, the only thing I see them being good for is outflanking with a haemonculus and then using baleblast to glance the rear armor of a tank to death. They're still pretty awful.

Yeah, I didn't expect them to get much better, but I love the idea of a bigger plan around them. Probably supported with Cronos-es to feed them pain tokens.

What I'd love to do, in a total fluffy-not-competitive move, is make up a Mandrake Archon to run around with them.

They did get better, but the starting point was pretty low so it'll take more buffs to make them really good.

I wish it were different myself, having an admitted weak spot for them as well. I'd personally love to see them as the Dark Eldar answer to Wraiths. Same statline, but with rending and the ability to flat out ignore terrain. Give them a minor price hike (to like 16-17 points per model) and call it a day. Ah well, a wish I will never see fulfilled.

If you wanna run an Archon with them, I see no reason why not. He could actually benefit them greatly with a PGL giving them assault grenades, as well as providing a power weapon option. Though you'd need to avoid Terminators like the plague. They're pretty much a hard counter to any DE list that isn't focused on shooting.

Well, I'm in the position where a few months ago, my old Dark Eldar army was stolen, so I have the small consolation of being able to build a new army from the ground up, with 6th ed in mind.

I'm thinking something like:

Archon (huskblade, soultrap, drugs, PGL, shadow field)

2 Haemonculi (both with Hexrifles, and another with a Casket of Flensing mostly because I had no idea to do with my last 11 points)

Kabalites for my troops, standard 1 blaster/1 cannon in lance Raiders. Some Voidravens, Reavers (another favorite) a Cronos. And at the center, two 10-man Mandrake squads, with a Haem in each, and the Archon in one.

Probably not the most competitive, but I think it might not be all that bad, especially given the fact that Mandrakes are so rarely seen in my meta that they downright scare people, as they just don't know what they can do.

I don't think the Cronos is necessary if you're starting the Mandrake squads off with a Haemonculus.

I also think the Hexrifle doesn't mesh as well with the Mandrakes as the tried and true liquifier gun. While the Hexrifle has been greatly buffed by Precision Shot, it's still a 'stay back and shoot' kind of weapon where you take advantage of its long range to make the most out of those points you spent. Yet, when attached to Mandrakes you're going to either be shooting baleblasts at vehicles (which the hexrifle cannot harm) or advancing into close combat, where the hexrifle does you no good.

I personally run the Haemonculi I plan on getting into Close Combat with a liquifier gun and venom blade. It's the same price as the hexrifle, but better kitted to the short ranged encounters you'll be facing.

God I love Voidravens in this edition. Ahem.

Reavers are much better these days.

For the Archon, I've never been a fan of the huskblade & soul trap combo, although that's just my personal preference. I've found that an agoniser has never disappointed, and when I have the spare points I'll fork up for a Djinn Blade and the Soul Trap. Those bonus attacks at Strength 6+ are really drool worthy, and Look Out Sir! can now help mitigate the blade eventually turning on you.

You can look out sir Djin Blade wounds? That's pretty awesome!

What's your take on missiles for Voidravens? Still worth it?

Haems cannot join the mandrakes during deployment, so you'd need to set that up.
The Cronos will probably help the mandrakes, especially if it's coming out of the webway with all its upgrades. ( first wwp reccomendation of 6th! D: )

I've always loved the mandrakes models and fluff, it's a shame they've always been just shy of actually being worth the points.

In my extended codex, I've decided to give the Night Fiends the Altered Physique rule, to make him worth taking and to make them a reasonable unit. Maybe the option for rending weapons too...

@Curran:

Yep. It's simply two automatic hits resolved at the Archon's strength. I used to use a Clone Field to mitigate it. I also took a Bloodbride squad with Shardnets to make my Archon effectively invincible in CC, but that tactic has gone the way of the dodo, so now I just take a shadow field and abuse Look Out Sir! on a 2+. I always like to imagine it a la Malus Darkblade with the Warpsword. The archon blacks out and wakes up to find two of his own men dead in some gruesom fashion. In my Kabal's fluff, I've actually written the Archon to have bound his predecessor's soul into a blade as a more permanent humiliation than death.

As for the missiles, oh god yes. Especially with how this edition is shifting to be more infantry oriented. Aerial Assault got screwed, but that's fine because if you drop 4 missiles on an infantry squad, 2 more void lance shots aren't going to be the difference between a total wipe and a partial wipe. Shatterfields are my favorite, since MEQ get their save against all the other missiles except for the extraordinarily expensive Implosion variety. Rerollable 2+ to wound? Yes please!

@Ovion:

Oh, they can't? That's a shame. Where does it say that, if you don't mind me asking?

I hope they got better, they have such cool models. And they have sucked for so long.

Ovion wrote:Haems cannot join the mandrakes during deployment, so you'd need to set that up.
The Cronos will probably help the mandrakes, especially if it's coming out of the webway with all its upgrades. ( first wwp reccomendation of 6th! D: )

I've always loved the mandrakes models and fluff, it's a shame they've always been just shy of actually being worth the points.

In my extended codex, I've decided to give the Night Fiends the Altered Physique rule, to make him worth taking and to make them a reasonable unit. Maybe the option for rending weapons too...

I thought you can't infiltrate a Haemy with Mandrakes... but what about outflanking?

"An independent character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment"

That seems to nullify both outflanking and infiltrating. That's a huge shame.

Edit: For reference, I got that from page 38, under the Infiltrate USR.

Oh... I thought Mandrakes got Scouts USR too..??

***looking up FAQ...

-edited: Nevermind... doesn't look like they get it. Bummer...

Lokas wrote:Put 'em with a Haemonculus, outflank, pray to god they survive the turn of shooting they'll have to endure when they arrive, pray to god that the enemy doesn't have power armor which will easily stave off your measly three attacks per model, and hope that the overwatch doesn't get you too badly when you try to assault something.

Really, the only thing I see them being good for is outflanking with a haemonculus and then using baleblast to glance the rear armor of a tank to death. They're still pretty awful.

Is this tactics legal? I guess the Mandrake lose outflank if an IC joins them who does not have this ability.

I think they are pretty solid now with one PT. Shoot+Assault and they are more then enough to take out transports and most units now (10 shoot+assault kills just under 5 MeQ on average), . The key is getting them that PT.

Now that you can't assault the turn you arrive anyway, I would recommend throwing a Haemie in Raider/Venom with some Wracks on the flank you want the Mandrakes to come in. Turbo up the flank the first turn and swap Haemie to Mandrakes turn 2 when they come in. Then your Mandrakes can pewpew the flanks from cover, turn 3 split the Haemie back to the wracks (to not slow down the Mandrakes) and send your Mandrakes charging into their flank.

Also, in addition to being able to reliably take out transports now, they also are a much more reliable reserve roll and have access to Autarchs/Aegis Defense lines and the like. Reliably getting them on turn 2 is a nice boost to their viability.

All and all I think they work now. They are not world beaters but they are just deadly enough and survivable enough to be a flanking head ache.

The more I look at them, I might end up just putting them in standard deployment with Haems as part of the squad so that they can start pumping out shots as soon as possible. Between the improved cover save for the squad, and the FNP provided by the Haem, I feel they could be a nice, mobile and versatile unit.

20 balefire shots a turn, plus whatever the Haem has (probably a liquefier gun) can do a great job at putting out some hurt, and then counter-assaulting as the enemy closes. And if my Archon is with them, the PGL means they have the ability to blunt a charge before it gets too bad.

Someone already posted the reason, thankye.

But you know the really annoying part - the way it's worded is that you'd have to sit the Haemonculi 1-2" away from the Mandrakes, and have him join at the start of turn 1.

BUT, give it a month (if that) for me to update my Extended Codex, then you can take a copy of the mandrakes from that. if you want.
Admittedly not a tournaments, but you can go 'do you mind if I use a unit from here' to people in pickup games.

Since CC is much worse now, I would have thought Mandrakes would be even more useless.

DOOMBREAD wrote:Since CC is much worse now, I would have thought Mandrakes would be even more useless.

but mandrakes are terrible in CC. They are also terrible shooting because of how difficult it is to get a pain token for them

Exergy wrote:but mandrakes are terrible in CC. They are also terrible shooting because of how difficult it is to get a pain token for them

(10 shoot+assault kills just under 5 MeQ on average)

At I5...I just don't consider that terrible? Are grey hunters terrible in assault now? Because Mandrakes are just as punchy, and at I5...and assault weapons.

Now that you can't assault the turn you arrive anyway, I would recommend throwing a Haemie in Raider/Venom with some Wracks on the flank you want the Mandrakes to come in. Turbo up the flank the first turn and swap Haemie to Mandrakes turn 2 when they come in. Then your Mandrakes can pewpew the flanks from cover, turn 3 split the Haemie back to the wracks (to not slow down the Mandrakes) and send your Mandrakes charging into their flank.

What's the difficulty here?

Ultimately, it's just that you're having to dedicate 1-2 turns and a significant amount of points and models, to make an overpriced unit OK at shooting / assaulting, while instead you could choose from pretty much any other unit in the codex and it's ready to go from deployment.

Like I said before, I've always loved the fluff, and the models, it's just a shame they've always been *just shy* of decent.

Mandrakes are just bad. They can't assault for crap, you have to "Earn" their shooting (which means they have to kill something in assault), and then their shooting isn't even good. Ask Daemon players how awesome Horrors are.

Then there's the hilarity of a unit being based around hiding in/around cover and then being totally hamstrung by trying to assault out of/into cover.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Exergy wrote:but mandrakes are terrible in CC. They are also terrible shooting because of how difficult it is to get a pain token for them

(10 shoot+assault kills just under 5 MeQ on average)

At I5...I just don't consider that terrible? Are grey hunters terrible in assault now? Because Mandrakes are just as punchy, and at I5...and assault weapons.

Grey hunters have T4 and 3+ armor. Mandrakes have T3 and 5+ armor and they take an elite slot. Mandrakes have the surivability of guard in CC and cost 3 times as much.
Init 5 is ok, but for a unit that can infiltrate, has stealth and that is from the fluff supposed to be living in cover, not having grenades is a pain. More than likely you are swinging at Init 1 on the charge and with that great T3 and 5+ save you are likely dying before you swing.

Grey Hunters also have grenades and options for power weapons/power fists, special weapons and so on and so forth.

Mandrakes have the option to pay 10 points to gain +1 attack and +1 leadership.

I love Mandrakes. Their lore, their models, so good. I love the idea of pouncing from the shadows to ambush an enemy unit, I think having a good outflanking unit would really benefit the Dark Eldar army and open up a whole plethora of new possibilities.

Alas. Mandrakes still disappoint me.

On the other hand, Wracks are better than ever and I've fallen in love with liquifier guns all over again. I've wiped MSU and semi-depleted enemy squads with overwatch four times in three games using liquifier guns.

Lokas wrote:
On the other hand, Wracks are better than ever and I've fallen in love with liquifier guns all over again. I've wiped MSU and semi-depleted enemy squads with overwatch four times in three games using liquifier guns.

The new rules have caused me to up my number of wracks from 7 to 10 which means I can get 2 liquifiers. Now I just have to hope one dies so I can put a haemi with them and cruze around.

I take them in squads of 9 with a liquifier gun as the only upgrade. Cheap, effective, a good method of delivering a haemonculus who can kill an disproportionate number of enemy models with a simple venom blade. Haemonculi are incredibly good with Look Out Sir! on a 2+. They're not half bad in challenges, provided the challenging model is anything but a terminator. The number of wounds you can put down will almost always guarantee a wound or two sticking. I wouldn't expect them to mulch another army's IC, considering they're generally stronger in CC, but I've been surprised before by their performance, and even if they don't kill the IC, they're gonna severely weaken them. Killing a captain with 1 wound is far easier than killing one with 3.

Ovion wrote:Ultimately, it's just that you're having to dedicate 1-2 turns and a significant amount of points and models, to make an overpriced unit OK at shooting / assaulting, while instead you could choose from pretty much any other unit in the codex and it's ready to go from deployment.

Like I said before, I've always loved the fluff, and the models, it's just a shame they've always been *just shy* of decent.

In any mission with objectives on the flanks, the Wracks/Haemie or largely doing what they would be doing anyway. It's not like you're sacrificing them to make the Mandrakes "OK". And seriously, a 15 point unit with their stat line AND 4/4 18" assault 2 shots with pinning AND a 5++/FNP AND MTC AND stealth AND infiltrate is far from "OK". If Mandrakes started with a PT they would be one of the best deals in the game.

Grey hunters have T4 and 3+ armor. Mandrakes have T3 and 5+ armor and they take an elite slot. Mandrakes have the surivability of guard in CC and cost 3 times as much.

With a PT, I would take the 5++/FNP over a 3+ any day of the weak. I would also take I5 T3 over I4 T4 generally (though fair point when assaulting in cover). Guard does not have Stealth/FNP/5++ (innately).

not having grenades is a pain

Fair point, though considering their assault weapons should whittle what ever they are attacking down by 2 or 3 bases, and will Pin (and essentially give them grenades) 16.7% to 30% of the time (depending on what they are assaulting), they can make up for it.

Basically, if they are assaulting any shooty unit (Tacs/Devs/LFs) their lack of grenades isn't going to hurt them that much (they'll still win pretty easily), and that's definitely their nominal roll.

Also, considering in 6th you'll see a lot more of units standing next to wrecked transports and a lot less of units standing in super awesome defensive craters, this should reduce the times the have to assault through cover. MTC, at least in my mind, was designed to move them OUT of cover with ease.

Grey Hunters also have grenades and options for power weapons/power fists, special weapons and so on and so forth.

Now that Mandrakes can pretty reliably kill vehicles in assault, I think the lack of special weapons is less of an issue. Also the nerf to cover saves will mean their AP 4 pinning weapons will be "special" more often compared to most bog standard weapons.

Anyway, just speaking from my experience and point of view, YMMV as always. For those of you that love their models (and already own them) I would encourage giving them another try in 6th.

"An independent character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment"

You could argue that when outflanking the mandrakes are not infiltrators, they are models with the infiltrate special rule. During deployment a unti with the infiltrate special rule that deploys as infiltrators during the deploy infiltrators step is a unit of infiltrators, deploying with outflank they are a unti of outflankers with the ifniltrate special rule.

That seems to be closer to RAI and can be argued RAW.

Not that I take mandrakes anyway, but if you want to do this you may well be able to, for a tournament I'd check with the tournament organiser in advance.