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So, who thinks that the GW space marine miniatures are not big enough? Surely they should stand at least a head taller than your average guardsman? After all, when reading all the fluff and Black Library novels, everyone keeps banging on about just how mahoosive (sorry – I mean really big) they are…

Just wanted to start a discussion on whether you think the GW space marine minis are big enough. Over to you, Dakka!

no they're not tall enough, but GW standardizes the height for the tabletop game. hence why you see guys doing the "art scale" or "tall scale" modifications to their marines from time to time.

They're that size because GW didn't bother updating the original Rogue Trader era design much. Presumably it keeps down costs andmeans people buy more models (ie if their standardized and don't have the uber stats of the fluff, they can use rules that means you don't need an army of ten guys). Taking a step up between codexs and suddenly making the Landraider the size of a super heavy would have made a lot of their current range redundant (even during 2nd edition). But yeah, it is really simple to make some true scale marines if your bothered (I built a few for a kill team game, but wound up making a 50+ Chaos Marine force). If you don't want to go overboard with sculpting I'd say just use a set of Terminator legs, bulk out an existing marine's chest, and add a bit of length to the arms. Its a simple way of doing it if you want marines that are a head taller than a guardsman (which I'd note are actually too big, ie they're the size of marines really, they should be about a half head smaller).

According to Jes Goodwin, Marines are the right height, it's every other sculptor GW has that has it wrong since they keep increasing the size of everything else.

Platuan4th wrote:According to Jes Goodwin, Marines are the right height, it's every other sculptor GW has that has it wrong since they keep increasing the size of everything else.

So Guardsman models are supposed to be the size of Squats then? ...Probably should have thought out that instead of just playing to the hobbyists. Forgeworld has the scale for their Guardsman correct. GW would need to fix their humans and Eldar (way too stocky) too if they could think true scaling their marines would be enough. Tau however....are Tau the correct size? (ie the Fire Warriors, the Water and Air Castes seem alright, I'm meaning are they correct in comparison to true scale humans?).

As I recall from the fluff, Space Marines are about 9 feet tall, so yeah, the models are waaay too short. Although, I think Jes Goodwin actually once complained about space marines being proper scale, and that it was all the other models being disproportionate, but I guess Platuan4th already covered that part.

The fluff varies on the height of Space Marines, I've seen numbers varying from 7 to 9 feet tall in armor. However, consider also that normal humans in 40k can get taller than those in real life (Ciaphas Cain is described as being a little over six and a half feet tall), it's entirely possible that the differences aren't quite as extreme as you think.

daedalus wrote:As I recall from the fluff, Space Marines are about 9 feet tall, so yeah, the models are waaay too short. Although, I think Jes Goodwin actually once complained about space marines being proper scale, and that it was all the other models being disproportionate, but I guess Platuan4th already covered that part.

Again with the crazy heights!

Marines are 7ft tall, maybe 7 and a half. 9ft is just plain ridiculous

By anyway, marine models were once the right height, I mean, look at the 2nd ed dark eldar warriors; they are tiny compared to the current model range.


Von Chogg

Von Chogg wrote:

daedalus wrote:As I recall from the fluff, Space Marines are about 9 feet tall, so yeah, the models are waaay too short. Although, I think Jes Goodwin actually once complained about space marines being proper scale, and that it was all the other models being disproportionate, but I guess Platuan4th already covered that part.

Again with the crazy heights!

Marines are 7ft tall, maybe 7 and a half. 9ft is just plain ridiculous

By anyway, marine models were once the right height, I mean, look at the 2nd ed dark eldar warriors; they are tiny compared to the current model range.


Von Chogg

Yes, or put some of the old metal Guard next to the current Guard - the new plastics tower over them.

A lot of the old models were smaller than they are. Put a RT marine next to a current one. It's sort of like a guardsmen to a marine.

I honestly think that the marines are about the right size overall. They are larger than most guardsmen- you can see this clearly if you try to swap out parts guardsmen parts on anything other than space marine scouts.

Of course, Catachans are clearly a huge people (average 7 foot tall) and Cadians got these enormous helmets and bulky armor last time the minis were updated.

There are two issues, though. Scale creep isn't exactly even (terminators have grown more than other marines) and they've ret-conned the fluff on how big marines are several times.

I asked people at my LGS about average marine heights, and answers varied from 7 feet to 10 feet tall.

When I found actual fluff on the matter, it seemed like they were seven feet tall, but I heard a lot of people insist that they're taller.

Some sources have them stated higher. So there was a little creep in the fluff as well. Which with the policy GW seems to take with it means that marines are anywhere around 7-10 feet tall.

The models are "markers" in our beloved table-top game.

Use the power of your imaginariums.

To scale the plastic chaos terminator lord is like 16 feet tall.

Kevlar wrote:To scale the plastic chaos terminator lord is like 16 feet tall.

I noticed this too! Even when not on the rock base provided, he's a good few feet taller than even normal chaos terminators.

chilledmonkeybrains wrote:
So, who thinks that the GW space marine miniatures are not big enough? Surely they should stand at least a head taller than your average guardsman? After all, when reading all the fluff and Black Library novels, everyone keeps banging on about just how mahoosive (sorry – I mean really big) they are…

Just wanted to start a discussion on whether you think the GW space marine minis are big enough. Over to you, Dakka!

Actually marines would be fine if the IG figures and such were closer to true 28mm. Compare any tru 28mm historical figs to a space marine figure and they have the right size comparison. Unfortunately all of the minis in GW's lines are buffed up and made bigger so that marines don't look like they are towering over anyone and they should from a fluff standpoint. Of course if marine minis really were taller then marine players would be complaining that other armies had an advantage because their troops were not as tall...of course it might help balance out that "And they shall know no fear" garbage at the same time, but we wouldn't want to limit the post boys of 40k in any way.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnomanderRake wrote:The fluff varies on the height of Space Marines, I've seen numbers varying from 7 to 9 feet tall in armor. However, consider also that normal humans in 40k can get taller than those in real life (Ciaphas Cain is described as being a little over six and a half feet tall), it's entirely possible that the differences aren't quite as extreme as you think.

Umm...I know a number of people in real life who are a little over six and a half feet tall. Look at the US National Basketball Association and you'll see plenty of people that tall or taller in real life.

Skriker

DeffDred wrote:The models are "markers" in our beloved table-top game.

Use the power of your imaginariums.

But it's so much cooler to use the power of plastic card.

Jes Goodwin himself, (designer and creator of SMs) in a podcast said that space marines are about 7 to 7.5 feet tall. Coupled with their broad physique, he imagines them being quite massive at that height.
He sort of rolls his eyes at the writers who keep making them larger and larger. The TT model scale is just fine.

People like to forget that the BL books are based on the TT game, not the other way around. And most of the books in the BL are written to gratify SM fans and are therefore shamelessly exaggerated. Such books brought about phrases like 'Bolter Porn' and 'Space Marine Fanwank'.

Well, sure, but at one point we had Squats and all kinds of strange things. Hell, at one point, SM were just brainwashed convicts. Stuff changes. Just be thankful they're not 20 feet tall yet.

I knew my fellow Dakkarites would not disappoint...

Brother Heinrich, you make a valid point. GW do seem to enjoy standardising the heights for the tabletop wargame. It is nice to see people going the extra mile by converting minis to stretch out some extra height! Talking of which, I have a few ideas myself regarding a pre-Heresy army I'd like to start sometime soon...

Wyrmalla - Another good point; if GW were to have 'realistic' scale astartes with 'realistic' attributes as per the fluff, then not only would the models be more expensive to produce and to buy, but they would also have insane stats and be correspondingly points-expensive, thus leading to the inevitable 'army' of 10 marines vs. an ork horde. GW most certainly would not be happy as customers would not need to spend £500+ on their army. :(

Platuan4th - Jes Goodwin said that, did he? I didn't know that, but I'm not especially surprised. Seems a little convenient, mind you...

AnomanderRake - Regarding the fluff, the overwhelming message I get is that astartes are really big, often described as gene-enhanced big. There's obviously a lot of room for interpretation in individual imaginations, so I personally like the idea of marines ranging from anywhere between 7' and 9' in height. I also picture them to have very Marvel/DC comic book proportions, like some of those seven foot WWE wrestlers you get, but a lot wider!

n0t_u - Haha! You're quite right! Rogue Trader marines are like Hobbits in power armour

odinsgrandon - You are right, they are larger than some guardsmen. I also concede your point about Catachans being rather large fellows. But astartes? Hardly any normal, non-gene enhanced humans would ever get close. Shaquille O'Neal gets close (he certainly has the height), but I still see a space marine being bigger:

http://europebasketball.net/basketball_wallpaper/basketball-wallpaper-basketball-36-sport-michael_Jordan-vs-shaquille-o-neal.jpg

DeffDred - Now, where did I put my imaginarium...?

Shriker - To risk sparking off another debate (oh sod it - debates within debates are even better), you mention:

...of course it might help balance out that "And they shall know no fear" garbage at the same time, but we wouldn't want to limit the post boys of 40k in any way...

I would say that the poster boys have already been limited in their tabletop incarnations, when compared to the fluff. To be honest, in my humblest of humble opinions, I reckon your basic tactical marine should have higher stats across the board than they do in 40k.

Veteran Sergeant - Nice picture! So what's this marine; about 8 feet tall? Big bugger, isn't he?

chilledmonkeybrains wrote:
Veteran Sergeant - Nice picture! So what's this marine; about 8 feet tall? Big bugger, isn't he?

Depends on how tall you think that Guardsman is. I'd say the Marine is about 7.5 feet if the Guardsman is an "average 5'9", 5'10". He's the tallest of the Marines I've done so far, but it's only by adding 2.5mm worth of card to them at the waist and legs and all of my figures have that same addition.

Same guy with a "regular height" Space Marine model.


This Marine stands a little lower because of his legs, but he's got the same overall modifications.


This guy's got standard legs that have simply been cut and re-posed:


Dunno. I personally think the Space Marines are too small, by comparison. Jes Goodwin makes the fair point that the Space Marines are the right size, but all the other figs are too big. It's really no difference. Space Marines too small, other figures too big, the end result is the only models you can control are yours. If I want my Space Marines to be the "right" size, I have to make them that way myself. GW had 20 years to make more reasonable models, and the IGuard have only gotten bigger, haha.


Haha. I see I have some haters. They must have seen me rolling. Somebody tagged some of my images with "To much extra stuff on them". Even more offensive with the heinous misuse of "to" versus the correct "too".

People that don't true scale their models are modelling to advantage. Whether the SM players are the WAAC TFG or the non-SM players isn't releavant.

It's this WAAC TFG abuse of true-line-sight that ruin this hobby.

Well, Veteran Sergeant, I must say I think your marines are pretty badass! You're always gonna get some 'haters' as you say, but variety is the spice of life, apparently...

I'm glad you like them. I'm 44 models into a full Battle Company. Stop by my project log if you want to see the rest of my madness, lol.

And I don't actually feel bad though. I left the tag because it made me laugh, and I was listening to a rap station on Pandora all day at work so it gave a chance to lift that line.

The Space Marine models are the proper size. Its just that the sculptors of the other models have made them bigger(for the sake of detail)

Guardsmen, Tau, and Eldar are just too big.

Von Chogg wrote:look at the 2nd ed dark eldar warriors

There's no such thing.

Dark Eldar were originally invented for 3rd Ed.

daedalus wrote:Well, sure, but at one point we had Squats and all kinds of strange things. Hell, at one point, SM were just brainwashed convicts. Stuff changes. Just be thankful they're not 20 feet tall yet.

We're not talking about what has changed, we're talking about their current iteration according to their designer... Not what the latest BL writer says and not what some neckbeard in your local GW store says.

The podcast: http://podcast.games-workshop.com/mp3/DP4_JesGoodwin.mp3

Near the last quarter of the podcast, To quote Jes, after Jervis says "I don't think most people realize quite how big a space marine would be." Jes replies "I say 7 to 7'6" because as you read the novels they get progressively bigger..." (comments on a life-sized SM he drew and that it's not the height that makes them so large, it's their broad physique.) ..."They really don't need to be any bigger than that (7-7.5 feet) you could probably get away with them being 6.5 feet tall and still they'd be incredibly scary."
That 7 feet is including their armor.

But what does Jes know, right? The size of SMs scales with the devotion of the person describing them.

Regarding "Scale Creep"

As with most thoughts that materialize inside my noggin*, this will certainly divide opinion, but what the hey...

Personally, I think that, purely from an aesthetic perspective, scale creep is a good thing *gasp!*

It means more detail. So, where back in the day you might have a 25mm figure, its contemporary is more in the region of 30mm, allowing for a lot more fine detail.

On the other hand...

... we have the 'problem' some (many?) gamers/hobbyists are experiencing: namely space marines aren't big enough (or IG aren't small enough - whatever) and there's a LOS issue.

To use an over-used phrase; at the end of the day, space marines are big buggers and can't hide behind small rocks, the same as 'normal' humans can. I suppose they could close their eyes and pretend no one can see them...



* A noggin is a silly alternative word for head

We can assume that humans on an industrialised planet like Cadia would have a decent supply of protein growing up. It's not unreasonable to assume an average height of 6 foot 2 or even more.
So maybe a bit too small but not rediculously so.

Testify wrote:We can assume that humans on an industrialised planet like Cadia would have a decent supply of protein growing up. It's not unreasonable to assume an average height of 6 foot 2 or even more.
So maybe a bit too small but not rediculously so.

That's what heroic scale is all about. 6'2" is kind of the minimum height for most humans in the 41st millennium.

Note, however, that they all grew a little when they went to plastic- especially the Catachans. They even wrote the ork's scale creep into the fluff after it got out of hand.