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Well I posted this in tactics, but as the legality of it got called into question I figured I'd post it here as well. Is this legal? RAW speaking of course.

If I take the mad dok as a HQ choice, for either primary army or allied army, he can then give out cybork bodies to the units from the other codex.

pg 96 ork codex "any unit in an army including the doc"

pg 109 BRB "your army can include one allied ..."

see allies are part of your army.

RAW, I think so.
RAI, who can really say for sure.
fluffy, you bet, some cybork firewarriors sounds like fun And if we faced off would you really object knowing I spent so many points to do this?

Special abilities only work on Allies if they are Battle Brothers. This is covered int he description of the various types of Allies.

Orks don't have any Battle Brother allies.

insaniak wrote:Special abilities only work on Allies if they are Battle Brothers. This is covered int he description of the various types of Allies.

Orks don't have any Battle Brother allies.

Its not really a special ability, its something used when building your army. You spend 5 points for each figure in your army, you want to be made into a cybork, this grants a 5+ invuln save. Its only used while building your list.

are any level of allies part of your army? yep.
is it a unit? yep
ergo cybork em up

sirlynchmob wrote:Its not really a special ability, its something used when building your army. You spend 5 points for each figure in your army, you want to be made into a cybork, this grants a 5+ invuln save. Its only used while building your list.

That doesn't make it not a special ability. It is, just as the Warboss's ability to take Nobs as troops is a special ability.

sirlynchmob wrote:

insaniak wrote:Special abilities only work on Allies if they are Battle Brothers. This is covered int he description of the various types of Allies.

Orks don't have any Battle Brother allies.

Its not really a special ability, its something used when building your army. You spend 5 points for each figure in your army, you want to be made into a cybork, this grants a 5+ invuln save. Its only used while building your list.

are any level of allies part of your army? yep.
is it a unit? yep
ergo cybork em up

He can't join a unit from another Codex, since they aren't Battle Brothers. Hence, a unit from another Codex cannot be his unit. So the base question is flawed. Nothing to see here, move along.

jwolf, I suspect you have misremembered the Mad Dok's rules. He can upgrade any unit, not just his own.

sirlynchmob wrote:Its not really a special ability

Mad Doc's "Da Big Doc" special ability isn't a special ability?
So what rule are you using that says you can ignore the restriction during army creation? The allies rules doesn't say the restrictions only apply during the actual game.

insaniak wrote:Special abilities only work on Allies if they are Battle Brothers. This is covered int he description of the various types of Allies.

Orks don't have any Battle Brother allies.

A) I'm not seeing this anywhere on page 111-112.

B) Do we have a concrete definition for "special abilities"?

I was going to blast him too but re-reading the allies rule I think he might actually be correct.

so I'm reading allies of convenience, and it says nothing about special abilities. PG 112. While the non orks can't benefit from warlord traits, or joined as a IC, they do they count as friendly units for psychic powers. None of those restrict the fact that a allied race is a part of the army, and a unit within the army.

If I'm missing something please show me the page number so I can go find it.

sirlynchmob wrote:so I'm reading allies of convenience, and it says nothing about special abilities. PG 112. While the non orks can't benefit from warlord traits, or joined as a IC, they do they count as friendly units for psychic powers. None of those restrict the fact that a allied race is a part of the army, and a unit within the army.

If I'm missing something please show me the page number so I can go find it.

Someone please find a way to contradict this... I really don't want it to be legal for stupid gak like Grotsnik giving Farseers Cybork bodies....

Ostrakon wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:so I'm reading allies of convenience, and it says nothing about special abilities. PG 112. While the non orks can't benefit from warlord traits, or joined as a IC, they do they count as friendly units for psychic powers. None of those restrict the fact that a allied race is a part of the army, and a unit within the army.

If I'm missing something please show me the page number so I can go find it.

Someone please find a way to contradict this... I really don't want it to be legal for stupid gak like Grotsnik giving Farseers Cybork bodies....

I don't think it would ever become common place, just think of the points required to do it. I just think it would be fun and orky

Ostrakon wrote:A) I'm not seeing this anywhere on page 111-112.

It's on page 112. The description for Battle Brothers says that they are treated as friendly units for special abilities and the like. For the other two, they are treated as enemy units and can't benefit from such abilities.

B) Do we have a concrete definition for "special abilities"?

Do we need one? I feel that's sort of getting into 'Do we have a rules definition for how to roll dice' territory, to be honest. If a unit has a rule that allows something different to the normal rules, that is a special ability of that unit.

insaniak wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:A) I'm not seeing this anywhere on page 111-112.

It's on page 112. The description for Battle Brothers says that they are treated as friendly units for special abilities and the like. For the other two, they are treated as enemy units and can't benefit from such abilities.

B) Do we have a concrete definition for "special abilities"?

Do we need one? I feel that's sort of getting into 'Do we have a rules definition for how to roll dice' territory, to be honest. If a unit has a rule that allows something different to the normal rules, that is a special ability of that unit.

Quoting verbatim:

"Battle brothers are treated as 'friendly units' from all points of view. this means, for example, that battle brothers:

- Can be joined by allied Independent Characters

- Are counted as friendly units for the targeting of psychic powers, abilities, and so on. [emphasis mine]

- However, note that not even Battle Brothers can embark in allied transport vehicles.

I'm not seeing anything that applies to the allowance/disallowance of this cybork nonsense. It's something applied during list construction, doesn't involve targets, and doesn't specify that you can only use it on 'friendly' units in your army.

I sincerely doubt this is intended, though.

Specifies that it's any unit in the army. RAW, you're fine. It doesn't say "friendly unit", but that it can affect any unit in your army. RAI? Probably not. I'd totally let my opponent play it, though. I don't play with people that look at something that is permissable by the wording of the rules and throw a fit. Every army has cheese. Deal with it, it's part of the fun of playing with or against those opponents that can bring challenges you don't expect.

And before I get the expected "hurr I bet you don't find people willing to play with you", the local gamers here are of the same mondset. A challenging game is a good game. If it's rules legal, or can be reasonably houseruled based on the wording, there's no hard feelings and often enthusiastic rematches.

He has an ability to upgrade units in the ork army. Abilities work on Battle Brothers, but not on other allies.

Last edition the rulebook FAQ clarified that army special rules only applied to friendly units unless the rule itself specified that it applied to enemies. I would be surprised if the new rulebook FAQ, when it comes out, doesn't include a similar clarification.

insaniak wrote:He has an ability to upgrade units in the ork army. Abilities work on Battle Brothers, but not on other allies.

Last edition the rulebook FAQ clarified that army special rules only applied to friendly units unless the rule itself specified that it applied to enemies. I would be surprised if the new rulebook FAQ, when it comes out, doesn't include a similar clarification.

I would argue that FAQs for 5th are irrelevent. It indicates some intent, but is more or less meaningless now. I can totally see it FAQ'd away, but in the meantime I'm okay with it.

I would say yes, but likewise you could call WYSIWYG if he decided to pull this on you, and it's highly unlikely that he would actually have it modelled that way.

Similarly a Space Marine Captain on a Bike should make all Blood Angels bike squads troop choices.

Ratbarf wrote:I would say yes, but likewise you could call WYSIWYG if he decided to pull this on you, and it's highly unlikely that he would actually have it modelled that way.

Similarly a Space Marine Captain on a Bike should make all Blood Angels bike squads troop choices.

If the wording is appropriate, I guess? My allowance of cyber-whatsits is based on the openly permissive wording of the rule. Of course, this was written way before the 6ed rules for allied detachments. Maybe it was planned while writing 6th to allow for these things. Unlikely, but hopefully the new FAQ sorts it out.

Ostrakon wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:so I'm reading allies of convenience, and it says nothing about special abilities. PG 112. While the non orks can't benefit from warlord traits, or joined as a IC, they do they count as friendly units for psychic powers. None of those restrict the fact that a allied race is a part of the army, and a unit within the army.

If I'm missing something please show me the page number so I can go find it.

Someone please find a way to contradict this... I really don't want it to be legal for stupid gak like Grotsnik giving Farseers Cybork bodies....

You realize that cybork doesn't actually have any effect on farseers?

I'd also point out that orks do not have battle brother besides the Ork Dread Mob from IA8.

TheHarleqwin wrote:I would argue that FAQs for 5th are irrelevent. It indicates some intent, but is more or less meaningless now. I can totally see it FAQ'd away, but in the meantime I'm okay with it.

I wasn't arguing that we should accept the 5th edition FAQ. Just pointing out how this was FAQd the last time it came up. Given the fact the the Codex FAQs remained largely unchanged aside from those parts that dealt with specific rules changes, I expect the rulebook FAQ to follow a similar pattern.

I'd love to have a 5+ invul on my Wraithlord. I think the enphasis is on the fun of the rules, and not balance. I'd say go for it. Clearly GW has thrown away the idea of competitive balance with 6th ed.

I'll buy that this was probably an oversight on gw's part (big surprise) but RAW seems totally legal.

So.... Cybork bodies... How do you model those on grey knights?

Ratbarf wrote:I would say yes, but likewise you could call WYSIWYG if he decided to pull this on you, and it's highly unlikely that he would actually have it modelled that way.

Similarly a Space Marine Captain on a Bike should make all Blood Angels bike squads troop choices.

Incorrect, Blood Angels get the "Bike Squad" unit, Space Marines get the "Space Marine Bike Squad" unit, the captain's special rule only applies to the latter of the two.

edit: Or did you mean it SHOULD, but doesn't?

Sorry Insaniak, what I meant to say was that the fact that 5ed ruled against it doesn't indicate much given that it was written without the ally system in mind. With such a difference in mechanics we can only assume what the new FAQ will say, butI agree that it will likely follow the same line. Until we have something solid, however, I don't find it game-breaking.

I don't see how you could buy wargear from another codex even if it's part of your army as an ally detachment. If one starts doing this, what's to stop a unit that can take "any dedicated transport" buying one from the other codex?

insaniak wrote:

TheHarleqwin wrote:I would argue that FAQs for 5th are irrelevent. It indicates some intent, but is more or less meaningless now. I can totally see it FAQ'd away, but in the meantime I'm okay with it.

I wasn't arguing that we should accept the 5th edition FAQ. Just pointing out how this was FAQd the last time it came up. Given the fact the the Codex FAQs remained largely unchanged aside from those parts that dealt with specific rules changes, I expect the rulebook FAQ to follow a similar pattern.

They still completely removed the BRB faq and most of it went into the new rulebook. Though not this part - maybe on purpose? While unlikely, we simply don't know. So your guess is just as good as mine, RAW is clear though.

@Spetulhu: Because Gortznik explicitly allows every unit in the army to buy that piece of wargear. No unit is ever allowed to buy dedicated transports unless they are specifically given permission to do so. I can't even buy dedicated transports from my codex for some of my own units. No trukks for burnaz, for example.

Ostrakon wrote:
- Are counted as friendly units for the targeting of psychic powers, abilities, and so on. [emphasis mine]

I don't see how a Special Characters Special rules don't fall under this... And if someone is going to play the 'abilities are not defined' then neither is 'army' and neither is ' army creation phase' or any of the other BS used to justify something that is pretty clear.

'So on' seems to make it pretty clear that non-battle bros simply don't share rules period... Army creation phase is a new one though.

Ostrakon wrote:Someone please find a way to contradict this... I really don't want it to be legal for stupid gak like Grotsnik giving Farseers Cybork bodies....

Seeing as how Farseers already have a 4+ Invuln save, I find it highly unlikely anyone would give them Cybork bodies. Now squads of Guardians with Cybork bodies...mmmmmm.....

nkelsch wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:
- Are counted as friendly units for the targeting of psychic powers, abilities, and so on. [emphasis mine]

I don't see how a Special Characters Special rules don't fall under this... And if someone is going to play the 'abilities are not defined' then neither is 'army' and neither is ' army creation phase' or any of the other BS used to justify something that is pretty clear.

'So on' seems to make it pretty clear that non-battle bros simply don't share rules period... Army creation phase is a new one though.

Thank goodness the Good Doctor doesn't need to target something or your objection might actually be relevant.

And thank goodness the Good Doctor doesn't say "friendly units" in the rule - it could work on Enemy units if they happened to be in the same army!

This is actually pretty funny. It's not really cheesy by any stretch of the imagination, but Grotsnik running around turning dudes into Cyborks is just a fething hilarious concept.