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Frankie continues to hone his Dark Harliestar list and Reece continues to experiment with Ork builds in this 1500pt book mission game. Caution! We rant a little bit about some of the ways you can exploit wound allocation and how it is not fun. We also ask your guys’ opinions on these types of lists.

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2012/07/20/dark-harliestar-vs-orks-1500/

1) If you don't bring a list like that, someone else will and you'll be paired up against them. simple as that.
2) Competitive really isn't "fun" anymore. You've got to shake that mentality because 6th ed competitive games are going to be brutal, brutal, brutal. I'm not sure GW's thinking on it but i'd have to say that all the random movement, objectives, and terrain was their way of keeping power lists in check. (yeah right)
3) As you said, there are paper-rock-scissors matchups. Air cav and Craft, Black, and Cheeze lists (Craftworld Eldar, Dark Eldar, and of course the cheese that is wound allocation) are Rock and Scissors. I think Coteaz TL-AssCannon Razor spam might prove a worthy Paper but you never know.

I did however play one last game vs. Craft, Black, & Cheeze (Dark Harlistar). This time I took my old 5th ed DE Venomspam List. We rolled up Purge the Alien again but I did get first turn. There was no LOS blocking terrain for my opponent to hide behind and I jumped all over that deathstar 1st turn. Wiping it out besides a 1 wound Eldrad. Did I win? No! Lost 17-14. I really should have spared some shots at his ravagers with my own but I got two good ID shots off on Vect and the other Archon that I couldn't help but try and ID Eldrad. It cost me as he took out my Ravagers and all 3 units of my trueborn. Leaving me without enough anti-tank to control his ravagers and walkers.

Had it been anything but Purge the Alien and I would have won. I wiped all this troops by turn 3 and having 2 units survive myself. (not that it matters when KP was the focus I'm sure).

I added this because I've given up trying to shoot this thing down while under the effects of Fortune (as you stated in your video). It's just madness. You get 1st turn, try it. They fail a psychic test, try it. They get Fortune up...forget about it.

Yeah, don’t take these type of lists to casual games unless your opponent wants to play against them. They are just not fun for the casual gamer (though I don’t mind if you use them on me ) I wouldn’t use my necron-scythe list in casual play unless you agree and I feel that your armies have at least some way to deal with them.

BTW, at the Golden Throne, you’re going to see some competitive armies. I’ll be there with my balanced necron army (with some flyers) and Kevin may perhaps bring his necron scythe army as well. So don’t worry that the deathstar armies will walk all over the competition there.

-- As a "funsies" list don't run these deathstars. It looks REALLY unfun. I simply wouldn't even play against that necron flying cheesewheel in a friendly situation except for laughs.

-- Tournament? You BETTER bring the cheese. If you try to "play nice" that WAAC 10% will just watch your batrep, clone your deathstar list, and laugh as everyone gets mad.

@Painnen

You may be right. Might just have to switch to a Warmachine mentality. Just bring the hammer every time.

I think Venom spam is going to be a good answer to a lot of this stuff. It has the tools, speed and mobility to combat the uber armies.

We've beaten the Dark Harliestars (Craft, Black and Cheese is hilarious, though!) but, like you said, it is always a sort of not fun experience.

@Jy2

Yeah, we just don't want to come to a first 6th ed tournament and monkey stomp people and then they don't enjoy themselves. That would be lame.

But, there will be those folks like you, Janthkin and us that have this stuff figured out already, so I kind of feel like we're either going to be the steam roller or the road.

@TzeentchNet

You may be right. It is going to be very, very hard to play around these things with a "normal" list. I think it can be done and that balance will prevail, but only if you are a VERY good player.

-- BTW thanks for your batreps, I got some really good laughs during your last two (Harliestar vs. Orks and Harliestar vs. IG). I was dying at the IG batrep where the biker fired the quadcannons.

-- And for the comments you guys are too negative - as a counterpoint ,I was REALLY down on my Dark Eldar because of the huge negativity on these boards and elsewhere, and was considering shelving them. Now I have all sorts of ideas for some wierdo combo lists that might be a lot of fun (and yes, I am going to be getting a box of Harlequins because of you guys!)

Hey Reece,

Can you have frankie give this a shot instead?

Vect
Eldrad (whichever psychic discipline that has invisibility I think its telepathy)
Farseer with normal psychics from codex eldar (doom/fortune/guide)

10 wraithguard, spiritseer with conceal

whatever else you can fit...

The things that I see making this at least as strong if not stronger than the harliestar is:

1)Always scoring

2)Majority T6 for wounding

3)conceal+invis gives the unit a comparable coversave to harlies

4)flamers cant really touch it

5)even though slower, it can shoot things with some nasty ap2 guns, and has a shot at downing flyers. This is, IMO the biggest shortfall of the harliestar given the number of flyers all of the necron players are going to be running early this edition.

Its not as good in combat as harliestar, but it gets free doom from shooting because of vects preferred enemy combo'ed with the always wounds on 2+ wraithcannon.

What do you think?

These lists and fliers have sucked what little fun I gained from 40k completely out... Guess that's why I jumped ship for other games lol. Great rep reece!

In all honesty,I find the whole thing kind of crappy but the tournament scene I'd expect this kind of thing and it is making me find other powers kind of more useful like megablasters to bypass the armor. Flamers also more useful for alot of crazy stealth issues. The necron air force I have no counter for until we get more missle launchers with flak. As for orks, I've had some good success with deff dread which no one used to use and try capt badrukk for the plasma shots. Won't help against vect though. I almost exclusively use shoota boys now and zaap guns. Have you guys tried meganobs? Their armor is quite good and can get some benefits from wierdos like grotznik.

FNP + cybork bodies + 2+ armor and fearless.

Definately the old lists are over. These new lists are demanding a brand new set of meta. We've been debating all sorts of wacky combos on the GK thread lately. Stuff we used to laugh at now seem alot more useful than before.

You definitely need to bring these lists to tournaments.

Either enough people will figure out and bring different combos to rock-paper-scissors extremo lists into being nasty, but not good choices to take in order to win overall at a tournament or these lists will utterly dominate and create a situation where everyone thinks the game sucks and needs to be comped.

Regardless of which happens, the only way forward is to bring the worst things possible. Its also the reason I won't be playing any more tournaments as I have no interest in building or playing lists like this, and even though I've never minded playing in tournaments with only modest hopes of doing well, since I don't really even care for the core mechanics of the game so much anymore I don't even feel the need to go and play with even a 'B' or 'C' level list (at least that's where my head is at now).


But wouldn't it be delicious irony for team zero comp to be the people first pushing for comp in 6th edition?

How the worm turns!

Is a "dark harliestar list" anything with vect, eldrad, and harlies? Can't watch the vid, can someone explain what this does / why it's so scary abusive?

Seems like a ton of issues could be fixed by limiting named characters, at least for allies, right?

you got the idea but it's a bit simpler than just named charactors.

what the unit is built around is Fortune and wound alocation. You pack a few 2++ models (Vect, Archons) into an eldar unit (harlies and farseer) and fortune them. Harlies are perfect for this because they have shrouding and stealth. That's a 4+ cover save out in the open. In cover, it's a 2+. Now start shooting that unit and you are forced to target the 2++ archons out on the edges and meticulously placed to be the closest models from about a 180o arc.

the named charactors just make it gravy. along with fortune, you get hit and run (harlies), fearless (vect,karadaras), stealth and shrouding (harlies), perfered enemy (vect), and 4+ IC's that can Look out Sir! when the going gets tough.

it doesn't sound all that bad in theory but just think of this and it will sink in how tough this unit is...how many times a game do you roll snake eyes? insane heroism? not that incredibly often right? well, that's what it takes to kill a single model in that unit more often than not.

I dunno guys, It doesn't seem incredibly strong to me. Here's why. Have you guys checked out the rules for multiple barrage yet? I don't have to target vect or any other 2++ model with multiple barrage weapons. But you do have to take away models killed closest to the center of the blast marker that I just multiple barraged that unit with.

It's a pretty simple, effective, and very common way to get by the wound allocation issues of units like that. 4+ cover saves are the same thing as 4+ armor saves. It would be like shooting at a unit of howling banshee's in the open with weapons that don't have an AP. It doesn't matter that they don't punch armour, they still kill most if not all of your banshee's. And that is one of the main reasons no one runs banshee's anymore.

Many armies have access to multiple barrage weapons and I have a feeling they will be getting more popular with this edition of the rules because of the sniping that can be done with them. In some armies those multiple barrage weapons also ignore your cover saves completely.

I do believe it is fairly strong, but I don't believe it is as strong as you guys have been making it out to be.

just my 2 cents.

only things that can get this combo would be:

null zone (but they probably have runes of warding)
Capt. Stern 's zone of banishment (also problem with runes of warding - but I think you can still get your 4 or 5+ deny the witch
hyperstone maze - inquisitor valeria
tesseract labrynths - quite a few necrons have this
Mind shackle scarabs (but not really killing them though)
crowe's heroic sacrifice (again, runes of warding is a pain)
Can use the boon of mutation from daemons as well as old zogwort's curse. (but you get stopped by runes again for zogwort)

with the nerfs to hoods, only rune priests stand much of a chance. No one else other than another eldar can do much to suppress this combo.

As other non-psych powers are concerned, your luck with barrage weapons may help screw up their wound allocation. Not sure if much else can help. Flamers maybe?

A fully kitted out necron royal court with a bunch of labrynths and MSS can probably laugh these guys off though. The weave is tough for that group to get through other than the kisses though I suppose.

A flyer list (necrons again) can also dominate these guys alot as you can always fly around invincible to charges.

Lastly, you can try challenging with something like a 2++ nemesis staff toon to stay in there and tarpit, or throw like 30 gretchen blocks at them for a while to keep the almost 800 point death star busy. A GK librarian that rolls a 5 on the divination chart will be able to tarpit them for a really long time as well.

well that's all the ideas I have anyway (I only know GK, IG, necrons, orks,and daemons! you other codex players chime in here)

Ironically, MSU can also deal with such an army. Just ignore the deathstar and go after the rest of the army. MSU just has too many targets for the deathstar to handle. Just be sure to feed them 35pt rhinos or 90pt combat squads one at a time.

Wow, Eldar Harlequin Deathstar w/ Karandras!

Crazy luck swinging both ways throughout this game. I didn't expect the Boyz to get wiped out so soon.

While it certainly is an OP Deathstar combo, it won't dominate all games. 6th Ed makes 40k more like rock-paper scissors than one list will rule them all. Flyers, Barrage Snipe, Null Zone, pure horde, MSU, and Plague Bombs are good counters.

Good battle report, thanks for sharing!

Depending on the type of army, I'd actually say that MSU isn't a fantastic counter for this army. As incredible as the deathstar is, it still is only around 800-900 points (no more than 1/2 the army). The units of war walkers will tear through a unit per turn. The scoring jetbikes won't go down to a mere 10-15 shots. And even though they won't be as effective, the MSU player still needs to sacrifice a unit every turn to keep the deathstar occupied.

I would really like to see how "Harliestar" would handle a horde army. I don't think the Harlies would have any trouble killing the models - they could feasibly wipe out 30 boyz on the charge. It would be the multiple assaults...One unit of boyz surrounds all the 2++ characters while a unit of meganobz or nobz hits from another side, where the closest models are all the harlequins.

I understand there are a great many lists that will have no counter to this and that will make the game not fun. However it is not a tourney worthy list. Why haven't you tried it against a Space Wolf list? On a 4+ , or 3+ with Njal, fortune will fail and the Wolves can unleash their shots into the unit and cripple it in one salvo. What am I missing with that?

Thanks for the input, guys! It's much appreciated.

Yeah, We pretty much came to the same conclusions. We don't want to make the game un-fun, but this tournament is billing itself as a very competitive event, so we're just going to run with it.

I am bringing Orks and Eldar which is weird, and definitely odd from a fluff perspective, but it is damn good.

It's weird what the game has become.

@Tzeentch

No worries man, glad you like them!

@Thanatos

We discussed that one, but we thought about the weaknesses: No hitting power from the Wraithguard in HtH, no Hit and Run (getting tar pitted is a big concern for something so expensive), no invul in HtH (other Deathstars will much you). But, if you gear it up as a Shooty Deathstar primarily (give them Maugan Ra or Fuegan) then I think you are onto something, and have it charge secondarily. Not a bad answer to Flyers either (if you can get close) as even with snap shot, the Wraith Cannons will drop a flyer.

It is a good idea, I think it can work, but you would want to alter it somewhat, I think to get the most out of it.

@Zid

Sorry to see you go, bro, hopefully the game'll grow on you. But glad you liked the report.

@Sudojoe

Yeah, we agree. There is now an even bigger divide between the funsies game and the competitive game. And yeah, some of the "bad" units last edition are great, now.

And you got it as to the counters. If you can stop the Fortune, you can fight it. That takes the teeth out of the unit, but with a lot of armies lacking effective counter-psykers, it is tougher to do than it seems. My Orks now take a Farseer just to stop the insanely powerful psychic powers that are now in the game.

@Yak

Hahaha, we'd then have to say the Zero Comp stand for "we have zero competition!" hahaha!

@Roadkill ZOmbie

That is a good point, and one of the only ways we've found to kill this unit. If you have say a manticore, and the unit is in the open, you can waste it with some lucky shots. Not a sure thing, but allows you to fight back, no doubt.

@Jy2

Yup, cheese to fight cheese! hahaha, venom spam is great against Deathstar units. Sigh. As you said, movement blocking and feeding them units can keep them occupied.

@SabrX

Glad you liked it!

And yeah, rolling snake eyes on that morale check was the only thing that saved my ass. The Nob Bikers should have been routed in the first round of combat.

@Siphen

Yeah, as Jy2 said, it would be. Also, MSU can take objectives well and is great at board control.

Plus, MSU is good against Flyers, too.

Man, we just went through the parking lot edition, I don't want to do it again.


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@Darth

Nothing. If you can stop the Fortune, you can stop the unit. Problem is, if you get in range to do it, and you fail to stop it (Eldrad gets two trys), you are dead next turn.

And, of course, the Eldar player will be doing his utmost to take Njal out before he gets in range.

But, it is a good shot at stopping it, probably the best.

We never said the unit was unstopbable, just crazy good and not much fun to play.

Another thing to consider is that Deathstars tend to do much better at lower points because there is less on the table to deal damage to them.

Good point. We agree. At higher points you have more tools to fight them with. However, the game goes so much slower now we aren't getting games done in a tournament time setting above 1500, I think that will change as we get better at it, though.

I guess my only counter point to that though, is that at higher points the Deathstar also gains more support units which helps them too, but like you said, I think the power curve flattens out a bit.

Reecius wrote:Good point. We agree. At higher points you have more tools to fight them with. However, the game goes so much slower now we aren't getting games done in a tournament time setting above 1500.

there is a local tournament in 3 weeks @1850. I don't think there's much chance that they'll get a first time tournament (in our area) done in 2 hour rounds. I'm taking MSU because again, I think it'll go to time and I want as many scoring units out there hoping that a footslogging deathstar won't be able to affect the board much.

On a side note: I do agree that the deathstars will do better at lower point values. 1500 pts seems like the golden spot. that's 50% deathstar, 20% scoring units, and 30% shooty goodness for flyers or anti-tank. (that's the way i've seen it ran around here). 1850 seems like a pure 1500 point list with 350 points worth of allied anti-psych/anti-flyer meta. basically whatever your core faction didn't do well of the two. Hell, perhaps 350pts of fearless road blocks if you want to try and tank the deathstars...

If the unit is relying on cover saves, then wouldn't the rules for focus fire allow you to bypass the uber characters in the front and shoot the models in the rear?

Since you always use your best save. You could say "I want to Focus Fire at 3+ cover saves" and completely ignore the 2+ rerollable in the front and kill everything behind it.

the models in front are using 2++ invulnerable saves. not always a 2+ cover save.

@Painnen

Yeah, we want to bump the points up a bit, but it's moot if games don't finish on time. Let us know how your tournament goes, 2 hour rounds is short, we were running 2hour 15minute rounds in 5th and still about 10-5% of games didn't finish on time.

@bigbabonass

The entire unit has the same cover save (stealth and shrouding confer to the unit) unless some are actually in cover and others aren't.

Good report.

I'm curious how those nobs lost wounds, because once you allocate a wound to a model you have to keep allocating wounds to it until it is dead or the wound pool is empty. did you just cleverly use look out sir?


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Also a rerollable 5+ isn't that good, how did the huge number of nob attacks not kill more harlies?


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Also you guys are complaining about the wound allocation and yes that one combo sucks but one nob hidden in 30 boys was bs too. so was 10 nobs all armed differently.

bagtagger wrote:I'm curious how those nobs lost wounds, because once you allocate a wound to a model you have to keep allocating wounds to it until it is dead or the wound pool is empty. did you just cleverly use look out sir?

Look Out Sir allows you to kick wounds anywhere within 6" of the character model being wounded. All Nobs are characters.

Also a rerollable 5+ isn't that good, how did the huge number of nob attacks not kill more harpies?

When it comes time to allocate wounds in close combat, the owning player can begin allocating wounds onto any of his models that are in base contact with an enemy attacker that swung at that Initiative step. So as long as Kandras is in base contact with an enemy model that attacked at that Initiative step, EVERY SINGLE wound can be allocated onto Kandras with his 2+ save that is fortuned. And if the wounds would ignore his 2+ save he is Eternal Warrior or can just kick those wounds out to other models in the unit using 'look out sir'.

Also you guys are complaining about the wound allocation and yes that one combo sucks but one nob hidden in 30 boys was BS too. so was 10 nobs all armed differently.

I don't think anyone would ever say that the 5th edition wound allocation rules didn't have huge gaping issues. However, it doesn't seem like you've grasped quite how bad the new system is either. A Nob Biker squad doesn't even need to be differently armed now, they can just pass the wounds around using the 'look out sir' rules. And the system, as pointed out, totally allows a model getting a 2+ re-rollable save to take every single wound inflicted by a squad of 30 boys, thereby completely negating all those boys ability to do *anything* in combat against that unit.

But that's no different than when a unit of boys charges draigo wing in any edition. i think it's just totally different from what we're used to that it will take some time to adjust to the new wound allocation. in the end, any rule gw puts out is going to be exploited by people. Also this whole edition seems to be based on the concept of you have to take psychic defense or you lose - period.

bagtagger wrote:But that's no different than when a unit of boys charges draigo wing in any edition. i think it's just totally different from what we're used to that it will take some time to adjust to the new wound allocation. in the end, any rule gw puts out is going to be exploited by people. Also this whole edition seems to be based on the concept of you have to take psychic defense or you lose - period.

I don't know why you'd say that.

First off, Paladins have only been around since 5th edition, so this isn't something that happened in every edition (not to mention the wound allocation system has been different in every single edition of the game).


Second, Boyz vs. Paladins in 5th edition would lose the combat sure, but they'd cause damage. There is a HUGE difference between a 2+ save and a 2+ re-rollable save. 1 in 6 vs. 1 in 36 to be exact. In addition, the Powerklaw Nob would get to put his attacks into the Paladins. Now he gets challenged in order to remove him from killing more than one guy max, and now gets essentially 'picked out' by that challenge so he is much more likely to get killed before he swings with his klaw.

So yes, it is a big, big change to be able to put EVERY SINGLE wound onto your toughest model AND combo special rules up in a way that you've never been able to before in order to make that model nigh invincible.


And as for psychic defenses, that's great in theory, but most psy-defenses now work ONLY when the power is being targeted on an enemy unit. This does nothing to prevent psychic powers like fortune that the psyker targets his own unit.

The only psychic defenses that stop that are Runes of Warding and Space Wolves Runic weapons, assuming GW doesn't FAQ those to nerf them at some point, of course...and Tyranid MC's within 12" of course.

So if psychic defense is REQUIRED for any army to survive this kind of crap that means every single army has to have Eldar or Space Wolves as allies just to get the Runes of Warding or Runic Weapon....which sounds tremendously boring from a tournament-field perspective.