Making Orks Competitive- Gather the Council, Prepare to Waaagh!

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**Jidmah**

The sky is falling for literally every single faction if you believe the threads on this forum.
If the sky drops on everybody, orks win, because orks never lose.

As for those completely overpowered 72 point rhinos compared to 82 point trukks:
No models can shoot out of a rhino.
Rhino does not get to reduce melta, lascannon and knight swords do 1 damage on 6+. A single 6 will most likely outshine all the self-repair a rhino can do in the game.
Rhino does not hit in combat on 5+.
Rhino cannot shoot after advancing.
Rhino has 12" less range for shooting.
Rhino cannot transport jump troops, primaris or terminator units. Trukk can transport all ork infantry.
Rhino transports 2 less models.

What the rhino does better is +1T (only relevant to S6 and S7), +1 to save, smoke launchers, and, of course, the ballistic skill of space marines which it cannot use when advancing due to not having assault weapons.

I'd argue that 10 additional points is a fair price for all that on a vehicle that can reliably drop 12 boyz or 6 MANz someone's face, charge into the enemy unit to eat overwatch and has a pretty decent chance to actually kill something by doing so, even without a wreckin' ball.
The rhino in turn is pretty bad for many marine units, as they usually want to shoot during their turn - but due to the new transport rules they have to be in the rhino during shooting to gain any bonus movement.

So quit your whining already, and go play a match before you jump to conclusions.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blackie wrote:
Are ard boyz really gone? I mean, I haven't read all the spoilers to be honest, but maybe in 8th edition they will be elites like they were in older editions.

I have the rules in front of me, there are no 'ard boyz anywhere. No rumors, fact. Sorry

**SemperMortis**

Jidmah wrote:
The sky is falling for literally every single faction if you believe the threads on this forum.
If the sky drops on everybody, orks win, because orks never lose.

As for those completely overpowered 72 point rhinos compared to 82 point trukks:
No models can shoot out of a rhino.
Rhino does not get to reduce melta, lascannon and knight swords do 1 damage on 6+. A single 6 will most likely outshine all the self-repair a rhino can do in the game.
Rhino does not hit in combat on 5+.
Rhino cannot shoot after advancing.
Rhino has 12" less range for shooting.
Rhino cannot transport jump troops, primaris or terminator units. Trukk can transport all ork infantry.
Rhino transports 2 less models.

What the rhino does better is +1T (only relevant to S6 and S7), +1 to save, smoke launchers, and, of course, the ballistic skill of space marines which it cannot use when advancing due to not having assault weapons.

I'd argue that 10 additional points is a fair price for all that on a vehicle that can reliably drop 12 boyz or 6 MANz someone's face, charge into the enemy unit to eat overwatch and has a pretty decent chance to actually kill something by doing so, even without a wreckin' ball.
The rhino in turn is pretty bad for many marine units, as they usually want to shoot during their turn - but due to the new transport rules they have to be in the rhino during shooting to gain any bonus movement.

So quit your whining already, and go play a match before you jump to conclusions.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blackie wrote:
Are ard boyz really gone? I mean, I haven't read all the spoilers to be honest, but maybe in 8th edition they will be elites like they were in older editions.

I have the rules in front of me, there are no 'ard boyz anywhere. No rumors, fact. Sorry

Wait, models can shoot from a trukk? OMG OP! ohh wait, ork shooting is BS2 and at best its going to be a unit of Lootas at worst a unit of Boyz with either pistols or shootas. Sorry if I am not jumping for joy that my lootas can hide in a 76pt Trukk and fire their BS2 weapons at an enemy.

I won't do a list of all the nonsense you just posted but i'll point this out. You think all those tiny things add up to the trukk being worth more but you completely discount +1 to toughness +2 to Ballistic Skill and a better armor save an even better you think its fine that Ramshackle works on a 6+. Yeah we might get that once a game on 2-3 trukkz if we are lucky. Its worth a lot less then the autorepair Rhinos get.

**JohnU**

Rhinos don't have big giant wrecking balls attached to them, which is really all that matters.

**Jambles**

JohnU wrote:
Rhinos don't have big giant wrecking balls attached to them, which is really all that matters.

See, this guy knows what's really important here!

There are SO many changes to the game and to the way units interact - being upset that something costs more points in this edition is crazy, the entire way that these units are valued has completely changed! For example, could you charge with your Trukk into combat last edition to tie up an enemy unit and crush things with your mounted weapons? What point value do you attach to all the changes that have taken place, or are you still stuck thinking about this in a 7th edition context?

**JimOnMars**

Trukks. Move 12, flat out, wait. Get shot. lose a couple of trukks. Then waaaagh, disembark 3, move 6, advance d5, shoot (at -1) then assault 2d6 w fleet with no overwatch ( trukk ate it.) Then pile in to combat 2, then consolidate into combat 3.

Battlewagon is the same, except it contains 9 meganobs and doesn't die.

Everyone else is paying 2500 points for their army that you will be crushing....at least some of the time.

Plus lootas doubling their damage for 1 pt (!!!!!!!!!!) and tankbustas even better for 4 pts (!!!!!!)

As far as trukks eating overwatch...it might just be better that they assault some other random unit that won't be able to touch the trukk in cc, or fall back and do nothing, waiting for the trukk to assault again, almost guaranteed.

**gungo**

gnome_idea_what wrote:
xlDuke wrote:
Don't forget it hits on a 5+

Yeah, with heavy D6 attacks you're at a fair bit of risk of whiffing entirely. If it got a bonus to hit that's make it better, but it seems kind of bad.

Unless there's a way to make it a sniper, it looks like you're better off with Lootas.

The shokk atk gun is expensive too however what could make it viable is if they give the Mek access to an ammo runt. Which in this edition doesn't make you discard it. So it's a free to hit reroll per turn. However the big Mek no longer has access to ammo runts. So don't bother.

**Jidmah**

SemperMortis wrote:
Wait, models can shoot from a trukk? OMG OP! ohh wait, ork shooting is BS2 and at best its going to be a unit of Lootas at worst a unit of Boyz with either pistols or shootas. Sorry if I am not jumping for joy that my lootas can hide in a 76pt Trukk and fire their BS2 weapons at an enemy.

If you're complaining about BS2 you are obviously in the wrong thread. This is about competitive ork gaming.
You also seem to never have heard about flash gits, burnaz, tank bustaz or nobz with combi skorchas, reinforcing my point above.

I won't do a list of all the nonsense you just posted but i'll point this out. You think all those tiny things add up to the trukk being worth more but you completely discount +1 to toughness

I didn't, I listed it. The difference between T6 and T7 is S6 wounding on 4+ instead of 5+ and S7 wounding on 3+ instead of 4+. For all other strength values it has absolutely no effect. If you plan on using orks competitively, know your numbers.

+2 to Ballistic Skill

Which you can never use unless you are moving d6" slower than a trukk. In which case the trukk is faster. The trukk can also shoot more often due to having more range. I wouldn't spend a single point to get 3+ on 2 24" bolter shots that prevent me from advancing.

You think its fine that Ramshackle works on a 6+. Yeah we might get that once a game on 2-3 trukkz if we are lucky. Its worth a lot less then the autorepair Rhinos get.

Auto repair is 6+ if the rhino is still alive. It won't be when something like meltas, lascannons or knights are coming its way. Usually you roll a maximum of six times during restoring an average 1 wound over the course of a game, if the rhino does not die.
Ramshackle works for every weapon dealing at least 2 damage, if you roll a single 6 against one of those, you're as good as a rhino in terms of regained wounds. If you roll a six against something with 3 damage, you're twice as good. If you roll a six against something with 6 damage, you're as good as all the rhinos in the enemy army combined.
That's math by the way. But somehow you still think 6+ after getting shot is more likely on a rhino than on a 6+ while getting shot on a trukk.

And guess what, people will try to stop trukk with heavy guns because the don't want 11 ork boyz with 33 attacks and a nob with a big choppa in their gun line. Or 12 burnaz with 12d3 autohits and 20 AP-2 attacks. Or figgin Meganobz.
The rhino? Not so much, you already gave up shooting by embarking, and no one is afraid of tacticals assaulting a gunline with their 11 attacks. They might be bothered to blow up that one rhino with Vanguard Veterans, but that one won't do a lot of repair rolls.

**Don Savik**

Played a 1500 point game with the new rules. Orks vs CSM. I tried out the 30 boyz with KFF, painboy and warboss combo to see how survivable it was. It surprisingly is quite effective for getting up the board.......buuuut.......if a dedicated close combat unit hits you FIRST then you are going to be a red smear on the floor. Its pretty glass cannon. I felt like I needed some fast shock unit to throw in front of my horde to take charge. Normally the trukk boyz trukks would do that job. Guess I'm not used to playing hordes. The increased durability of things made it hard to kill things from sheer weight of dice. I felt like I needed more armor piercing against marines.

A power klaw or 2 isn't going to cut it for taking out big vehicles now I think.

**gungo**

Trukks as designed are a boon to orks, they are actually semi reliable melee damage dealers outside of gene cult rockgrinder our transports kick ass.

Morale had me concerned with the push for 30 man blobs, tiny 3-6in range buffs, etc but after looking at some unintentional side effects with runts, squigs, grots. Morale is heavily mitigatable in the units I really was concerned about. Still think the bosspol should have been included as a reroll for the nobs morale effect though. But morale won't be an issue if you design ur units right.

My only concern is orks are dirt slow. 5in move,d6 advance and charge only if a warboss is within 6in is going to hurt foot builds. And even more worrisome is mega nobs only move 4in and EVERYOTHER army either moves 6in or MORE now. So I forsee a lot of benny hill type ork assaults w mega nobs slowly chasing a knight or something they should be attacking.

**Pedroig**

Don Savik wrote:
Played a 1500 point game with the new rules. Orks vs CSM. I tried out the 30 boyz with KFF, painboy and warboss combo to see how survivable it was. It surprisingly is quite effective for getting up the board.......buuuut.......if a dedicated close combat unit hits you FIRST then you are going to be a red smear on the floor. Its pretty glass cannon. I felt like I needed some fast shock unit to throw in front of my horde to take charge. Normally the trukk boyz trukks would do that job. Guess I'm not used to playing hordes. The increased durability of things made it hard to kill things from sheer weight of dice. I felt like I needed more armor piercing against marines.

A power klaw or 2 isn't going to cut it for taking out big vehicles now I think.

That seems right, allowing a dedicated assault unit to attack into you, instead of you into them should hurt.

Three powr klaws should do the trick

**Vitali Advenil**

JimOnMars wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
We are royally boned.

Three words:

Consolidate

Into

Combat.

The problem is that the wording says that you must consolidate 3'' towards the closest enemy. Granted, with boyz blobs, this won't be hard, but with something like MANz who'll only have a few models in the unit, you won't be able to just turn around to some other squad 3'' away. That, and it's only 3'' during the fight phase. This won't be happening that often.

**Cleatus**

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but I think there's a typo/inconsistency in the leaked pics:
Deffkoptas, models per unit = 1-3:
http://i.imgur.com/Hf1chjK.jpg

Deffkoptas, unit size 1, can add up to 2 additional Deffkoptas, or up to 4 additional Deffkoptas. So, models per unit = 1-5:
http://i.imgur.com/k9iaX3L.jpg

In 7th edition they were unit size 1-5.

Btw, Bigbomms were optional wargear for Deffkoptas in the last two editions of the Ork codex, but no there wasn't an option for it on the sprue afaik.

**Jidmah**

I just did a calculation of what my default army (battlewagon bash) would cost in 8th:

1 Ghazghkull Thrakka 215

1 Weirdboy 62
- Warpath

18 Choppa Boyz 108
- Nob boss with PK 25
Total 133

20 Shoota boyz 120
- Nob boss with Kombi-Rokkit launcha and Big Choppa 29
- 2 Rokkit launchas 24
Total 173

12 Boyz 72
- Nob with BC 9
Total 81

15 Burna Boyz 210
- 1 Spanna 0
Total 210

15 Tank bustaz 75
- 10 Rokkit launchas 120
- 3 Pairs of rokkit pistols 36
- 2 Tank hammers 38
Total 299

Nob with Waaagh! Banner 75
- Kustom Shoota 4
Total 79

4x Battlewagons 180
- Deff rolla
- 2 closed 2 open
Total 720

Trukk 76
- Big Shoota 6
Total 82

Grand total 2000 (unless I miscalculated)

Using 1 Battalion for +3 and -1 for adding a fourth Heavy support choice.

It's probably better to drop one wagon and either burnaz or tank bustaz and get some fast attack or fliers or trukk boyz.

**Vitali Advenil**

Does anyone know the current points of a 4-klaw deffdread? I haven't seen the unit page, but the base price is 74, the first claw is 30, the rest are 15. Do we know if it comes with one klaw included? If not, that brings a 4-klaw deff dread to 149 points, a 49 point increase. Again, that's not terrible given the new survivability of vehicles, but I just want to make sure- I'm trying to get a feel of what my walker-list will look like.

Also, if I'm adding right, morkanauts are 354 before upgrades.

**JohnU**

Old points vs. new

Been a little while since I'd used my Orks in 7th so I wanted to go back and jot down an overview of the changes in unit costs with the new addition to get a better view of where we're at.

The list isn't comprehensive, but will focus on some of the more common loadouts. I'll try to keep loadouts functionally similar. For stat comparisons, New Orks have -1M and +1S to Old Orks, except for bikes which have +2M.

Spoiler:

**Col. Dash**

Has anyone posted the stats for Kommandos and Snikrot. I looked at the index a few pages bac that had everything and didnt see them.

**blaktoof**

Kommandos are better due to the infiltration change, they are more likely to get somewhere without being killed

Arguing that Orks are worse because bikes transports etc went up large % increase is not productive, and more importantly without merit. All of those types of units increased in cost for all armies, so it's not a net change in the scheme of how the game plays against other players. A large Ork biker army sees a hit in model count the same as a SM biker army, an Ork trukk army sees a model count hit due to trukk coat the same as a drop pod or rhino rush army will. It's no net change versus other players within the same edition.

And again the huge cost increase of transport vehicles goes along with a general decrease in infantry cost-effective the net change is about 10% for the combined infantry and transport. For all factions

**Jambles**

blaktoof wrote:
Kommandos are better due to the infiltration change, they are more likely to get somewhere without being killed

I'm really excited to try out Kommandos. It's great that a lot more units and upgrades are becoming viable, it's an excuse to finally finish parts of the army that haven't been touched in a long time!

**Rismonite**

Dakkajet no longer Twin Linked and didn't get x2 shots like other twin linked stuff.. I was really hoping to dust that model off. I hope the "Shooty" weapons list has our Combi-Weaponz for nobz in it. Has anyone worked out how the feth the bubblechukka is supposed to work? It looks like that is going to take a lot of time. Why should we ever take a Wrecking Ball over the Grabbin' Klaw or, most importantly, the Deff Rolla?

**GreatGranpapy**

Taking a Mek and nestling it between some Dreads looks like not a bad idea.

**gungo**

GreatGranpapy wrote:
Taking a Mek and nestling it between some Dreads looks like not a bad idea.

Mek with a grot orderly as it increases repair to 2 and acts as an ablative wound.

**Dakka Flakka Flame**

GreatGranpapy wrote:
Taking a Mek and nestling it between some Dreads looks like not a bad idea.

I think that a Mek in the middle of a bunch of Dreads or Kans is going to be the best use of the KFF, as it seems likely that people will be shooting high-AP weapons at them. Also, as mentioned before, Mek w/ KFF seems like a good fit with Big Gunz and Mek Gunz.

It seems like Meganobz and Flash Gitz are pretty much always going to be riding in Battlewagons or Trukks, but wasn't this always the case?

If I'm reading the rules right it sounds like models still need to see each other to shoot each other, so would an intervening big horde of boyz block LOS?

I wasn't thrilled with the Wrecking Ball at first, but considering it's only 3 points it doesn't seem like a bad choice for trukks. A Trukk isn't going to be dealing a lot of damage even with the Wreckin' Ball, but it might be a good way to tie up a shooty unit and keep it from doing anything.

**JimOnMars**

If boss nobs are free, how valuable would it be to maximize them? What if we took 20 units of 9 boyz and a nob (no gear) for 1200 points?

That's a lot of free nob.

**Dakka Flakka Flame**

I wonder does "wholly within" refer to bases or every part of the model? Lots of arms, legs and weapons sticking out on Ork models.

JimOnMars wrote:
If boss nobs are free, how valuable would it be to maximize them? What if we took 20 units of 9 boyz and a nob (no gear) for 1200 points?

That's a lot of free nob.

A Kommandoz unit only costs 45 points and gets us a free Nob and two free Burnas (for now). I'm wondering if the Burnas thing was an oversight that is going to get corrected soon.

**Don Savik**

Rismonite wrote:
Dakkajet no longer Twin Linked and didn't get x2 shots like other twin linked stuff.. I was really hoping to dust that model off. I hope the "Shooty" weapons list has our Combi-Weaponz for nobz in it. Has anyone worked out how the feth the bubblechukka is supposed to work? It looks like that is going to take a lot of time. Why should we ever take a Wrecking Ball over the Grabbin' Klaw or, most importantly, the Deff Rolla?

The game I played I used my dakkajet. Before it had 9 shots, 12 when you waaagh. Now it has 18 all the time. 18 shots that hit on 4's, wound on 3's (generally) with a -1 rend.

I'd say they're a lot better.

As for the bubble chukka its weird.

1. you roll 4 dice, pick one of the results and use it as one of the 4 stats.
2. the opponent picks another dice, he makes it one of the three remaining stats
3. repeat for last 2 dice

So you pick 2 stats out of what you rolled and your opponent does the other two. Is it better? Uh....I think so. Still jankier then all heck though.

**GreatGranpapy**

Are they still going to have Relics (whatever the universal term for "there may only be one of this" wargear) and faction Warlord traits this edition?

**Alkorus**

That will come in the individual army books, brobably next year

**JimOnMars**

Don Savik wrote:
Rismonite wrote:
Dakkajet no longer Twin Linked and didn't get x2 shots like other twin linked stuff.. I was really hoping to dust that model off. I hope the "Shooty" weapons list has our Combi-Weaponz for nobz in it. Has anyone worked out how the feth the bubblechukka is supposed to work? It looks like that is going to take a lot of time. Why should we ever take a Wrecking Ball over the Grabbin' Klaw or, most importantly, the Deff Rolla?

The game I played I used my dakkajet. Before it had 9 shots, 12 when you waaagh. Now it has 18 all the time. 18 shots that hit on 4's, wound on 3's (generally) with a -1 rend.

I'd say they're a lot better.

As for the bubble chukka its weird.

1. you roll 4 dice, pick one of the results and use it as one of the 4 stats.
2. the opponent picks another dice, he makes it one of the three remaining stats
3. repeat for last 2 dice

So you pick 2 stats out of what you rolled and your opponent does the other two. Is it better? Uh....I think so. Still jankier then all heck though.

OK wow I just read that....It will take 10 minutes to fire if I have 6 of them. Really GW? In my local group we like to surprise each other with new units and rules as they come out. Guess I'll use that for a serious wtf moment.

**Jidmah**

Col. Dash wrote:Has anyone posted the stats for Kommandos and Snikrot. I looked at the index a few pages bac that had everything and didnt see them.

I skipped them because they are almost unchanged.

Boss Snikrot is now a HQ choice for 69 points.
Stats: M6" WS 2+ BS 5+ S6 T4 W6 A6 Sv 6+
Gets +3 from cover instead of 1
Deploys 9" from enemies after movement
Reroll to hit rolls of 1 in combat for all bloodaxe kommandoz within 6" (including himself)
Reduces enemy moral within 6" by 1
Mork's Teeth are user strength AP -1 and do 2 damage

Kommandoz are unchanged except for the changes all orks got.
They can deploy 9" from enemies, get +2 from cover and move 1" more than regular boyz.

Rismonite wrote:
Dakkajet no longer Twin Linked and didn't get x2 shots like other twin linked stuff.. I was really hoping to dust that model off.

The jet is equipped with twice as many weapons now, so 6 x 3 shoots full upgraded. Get the duster!

Why should we ever take a Wrecking Ball over the Grabbin' Klaw or, most importantly, the Deff Rolla?

A BW has 6 attacks so you can get wreckin ball and klaw for 3+1+2 attacks using both. Deff rolla hitting on 2+ outshines them by a lot though.
Points are 3 for a wreckin' ball 5 for a grabbin' klaw and 19 for the deff rolla, so it's also a matter of points.

GreatGranpapy wrote:Are they still going to have Relics (whatever the universal term for "there may only be one of this" wargear) and faction Warlord traits this edition?

Both have been removed from the current rules and general warlord traits have been reduced to just 3 to chose from.

**oldone**

I'm starting to think boy really should have gone down by a point, just trying to fit everything in a list is hard, I was thinking about going for a brick of 4 to 6 character supporting 2 units of 30 boys but it just seems so expensive. like some have said not sure Big mek with kff is work it as its 75 at least. I'm wondering if maybe an outrider detachment focusing on war bikes will be better as 30 man units only benefit is Mob rule.