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Hello All!

Wondering if I can get your thoughts on this:

I want to stick a scout sniper squad on an Aegis defense line. The ADL will boost their survival rate thanks to the cover. I'll be slapping on the upgrade gun for sure.

I considered the Quad-Gun the obviouse choice for which gun emplacement, the AA fire will be much needed in my local meta. But then I had the thought: Telion is BS6, so I'm wondering... could it be a savvy move to have him man that Icarus lascannon thing? He hits on 2+, and that thing IS dynamite, complete with a board-spanning range. If I don't have an immediate flyer threat, then I can point it at a vehicle, walker, or even IC. The quad gun would obviously be equally, if not more, effective at popping low AV transports and such, but unlike the quad, the Icarus will fare better against high AV vehicles, etc

So, what are your thoughts, is Telion on the Icarus a viable setup? Or maybe better question:

Who is manning YOUR ADL gun upgrade?

I think telion would work pretty well, since he could still help the squad in your shooting phase(even though he cant shoot the icarus again)

Personally I am running necrons, my icarus is manned by a unit with a chronometron. Getting that re-roll at any time will be really helpful.

Telion is a great gunner, but the Quad Gun is better than the Lascannon as both an all-rounder and an AA gun.

Any shots tellion makes with the quad gun also get his wound-allocation rule.

So... 4 wounds slamm specifically into that sergeant or weapon specialist. Super sniper! (I'd model the quad gun as a giant 4 barreled sniper rifle on a turret.)

I don't get why Telion is such a popular choice for the ADL. Sure he's BS6, but the Quad Gun is TL anyway, so any BS4 Marine would do just as fine instead.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Telion is a great gunner, but the Quad Gun is better than the Lascannon as both an all-rounder and an AA gun.

Nope, I like the Icarus better. Better range, better ap value and +1 to the damage table. 18% chance to blow up an armor 11 flyer with a quad gun using BS 4. 15% chance to blow up an armor 11 flyer with an Icarus and BS 4. This doesn't seem like a no brainer choice for the quad gun.

Icarus 100% you have a Sniper LAZ Cannon....Whats not to love about this set up?

Valkyrie wrote:I don't get why Telion is such a popular choice for the ADL. Sure he's BS6, but the Quad Gun is TL anyway, so any BS4 Marine would do just as fine instead.

His special rule (updated in the FAQ) gives every shot he takes Precision shot, so no 6s to roll, hes always plinking squad leaders and all kinds of goodies, Blood Angel Priests, BEWARE!

DarthDiggler wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Telion is a great gunner, but the Quad Gun is better than the Lascannon as both an all-rounder and an AA gun.

Nope, I like the Icarus better. Better range, better ap value and +1 to the damage table. 18% chance to blow up an armor 11 flyer with a quad gun using BS 4. 15% chance to blow up an armor 11 flyer with an Icarus and BS 4. This doesn't seem like a no brainer choice for the quad gun.

Right, if you want to blow it up, but that's not necessary (especially since a flyer blows up anyway if wrecked while zooming). And since you used AV11 as an example, most AV11 flyers have 2 Hull Points, which one round from the Quad Gun strips completely on average.

Then again, why am I bothering to argue? You posted a comparison yourself that shows I am right that the Quad Gun is better. And that's just against flyers.

The Icarus becomes the superior choice against AV12 and higher. So it's nonsense to suggest the quad gun is simply better -- it will sometimes, perhaps often, be the better choice for a specific list but that will depend on what your other units are bringing to the table. Also with Telion (or a Vindicare) on the gun, an Icarus allows you to single out and kill armour 2+ and 3+ characters much more easily.

I would prefer a gunenr that have tankhunter, rerolling those failed penetration rolls is just godly

Got a little rules question here, if you have Telion in BtB with the gun, and use his BS to fire it, can he still fire his own weapon? (Or whoever is manning the gun...)

rodgers37 wrote:Got a little rules question here, if you have Telion in BtB with the gun, and use his BS to fire it, can he still fire his own weapon? (Or whoever is manning the gun...)

No his weapon becomes the gun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Telion is a great gunner, but the Quad Gun is better than the Lascannon as both an all-rounder and an AA gun.

Nope, I like the Icarus better. Better range, better ap value and +1 to the damage table. 18% chance to blow up an armor 11 flyer with a quad gun using BS 4. 15% chance to blow up an armor 11 flyer with an Icarus and BS 4. This doesn't seem like a no brainer choice for the quad gun.

Right, if you want to blow it up, but that's not necessary (especially since a flyer blows up anyway if wrecked while zooming). And since you used AV11 as an example, most AV11 flyers have 2 Hull Points, which one round from the Quad Gun strips completely on average.

Then again, why am I bothering to argue? You posted a comparison yourself that shows I am right that the Quad Gun is better. And that's just against flyers.

Say which armor 11 flyer has only 2 hull points? The Nightscythe? The Doomscythe? The Dakkajet? The Void Raven? No, only the Stormtalon. Not as popular as those other 4. On average the Quad gun will strip 1.1 hull points from an armor 11 flyer, who jinks. (and why wouldn't you jink if you just got hit 3-4 times with the quad gun). Not the two hull points that you claim. Those other armor 11 flyers have 3 hull points each.

My point is that I have seen a bunch of people quickly state the quad gun is superior to the Icarus Lascannon, but have nothing to back that up with. I think I am clearly showing the Quad Gun is not superior to the Icarus and there are indeed situations where it is a better choice. Both guns have their benefit, but the 15pt cheaper Icarus is just as good.

DarthDiggler wrote:

rodgers37 wrote:Got a little rules question here, if you have Telion in BtB with the gun, and use his BS to fire it, can he still fire his own weapon? (Or whoever is manning the gun...)

No his weapon becomes the gun.

So, Tellion seems like a bit of a waste on the gun then, his sniper is pretty good isn't it?

First and foremost, thanks to everyone for writing in on this one! Its great to see so many reasons for the different opinions here!

So, Tellion seems like a bit of a waste on the gun then, his sniper is pretty good isn't it?

I wouldn't say a WASTE, I mean, he still gets that ability to select his target. What this means to me is that when you don't have that pesky flyer to worry about you get a BS6 shot at whatever you want (providind LOS etc). So you have the option of railing an IC or higher AV tank with the icarus gun-- maybe that Vindicator's that getting a little too close for comfort, maybe you'd like to snipe the librarian out of that squad, you get my meaning.

Conversely, you can dump multiple quad-gun shots into said target.

Touble is... I'm still not sold on either lol. All this debating is only making each options' own usefulness more obvious lol. Oh, what to do!?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a thought...
Instead of the ADL, what about Telion and a scout sniper squad inside a bastion fortification with the Icarus? Or even with the quad gun...

Can't fire the gun emplacement while inside the bastion. It's a seperate model, and you need to be in base contact with it to use it.
If you're inside the bastion you only get to use the emplaced heavy bolters.

I'd put Telion behind the Quad Gun. BS6 and precision shooting with a 4-shot TL AC. Pretty good to me.

Arson Fire wrote:
Can't fire the gun emplacement while inside the bastion. It's a seperate model, and you need to be in base contact with it to use it.
If you're inside the bastion you only get to use the emplaced heavy bolters.

Is there a discussion anywhere to back that up? It can most certainly be built as only one model. On my reading of the rules the issue seemed quite ambiguous.

The reason why you are messing with the quad gun in the first place is so that you can shoot down flyers. Why don't you take devestators instead, they come with a sigmun +1 in bs dont they? Shurly BS5 twin linked autocannons will be enough?

 Niiai wrote:
The reason why you are messing with the quad gun in the first place is so that you can shoot down flyers. Why don't you take devestators instead, they come with a sigmun +1 in bs dont they? Shurly BS5 twin linked autocannons will be enough?

Well devastators would still have to hit on 6's (and maybe 5's depending on how you gaming group interprets it because devastators don't have skyfire) but with enough shots your bound to get through that.
I also don't think devastators get twin linked autocannons (or at least in my vannilla marine codex)



As for tellion and the aegis defense
I'm running a five mand sniper hb and him in the aegis defense in a tournement which I'm using the quad gun not only to take out vehicles but also to target his warlord turn 1-2

 Niiai wrote:
The reason why you are messing with the quad gun in the first place is so that you can shoot down flyers. Why don't you take devestators instead, they come with a sigmun +1 in bs dont they? Shurly BS5 twin linked autocannons will be enough?

+1BS doesn't matter when you are always at BS1 no matter what, and they don't get TL Autocannons.

Leggy wrote:

Is there a discussion anywhere to back that up? It can most certainly be built as only one model. On my reading of the rules the issue seemed quite ambiguous.

It has to do with the Gun Emplacement rules. A Gun Emplacement is a piece of battle field debris. It is not part of the bastion. You can put it on the bastion as there are rules for putting terrain on terrain, but you can not embark the Gun Empalcement INSIDE the fortification.

So if you put it on top of your bastion it gets a coversave and improved line of sight. That is it.

And units embarked in the bastion can not fire a Gun Emplacement on the roof becasue you have to to in BtB with the Gun to shoot it.

Another reason Talion is popular, is not his BS, but stealth. It stacks now with camo cloaks, so you start with the 4+ of the ADL and boost it to a 2+ cover save.

 Nevelon wrote:
Another reason Talion is popular, is not his BS, but stealth. It stacks now with camo cloaks, so you start with the 4+ of the ADL and boost it to a 2+ cover save.

Does it? Page reference please, as last I looked Camo Cloaks just gave Stealth. Stealth stacks with Shrouding, but not withg itself AFAIK.

Not saying you are wrong BTW, would just like to read it for myself.

As per the FAQ:

Page 100 -Camo Cloak

Change to "A model wearing a camo cloak has +1 cover save"

Talion still has the stealth special rule, and was errata'd to have a camo cloak as well.

So they should stack, as the cloaks don't give stealth anymore, but a generic +1 to cover saves.

 Nevelon wrote:
As per the FAQ:

Page 100 -Camo Cloak

Change to "A model wearing a camo cloak has +1 cover save"

Talion still has the stealth special rule, and was errata'd to have a camo cloak as well.

So they should stack, as the cloaks don't give stealth anymore, but a generic +1 to cover saves.

That's awesome. Nice find. And thanks.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
The reason why you are messing with the quad gun in the first place is so that you can shoot down flyers. Why don't you take devestators instead, they come with a sigmun +1 in bs dont they? Shurly BS5 twin linked autocannons will be enough?

+1BS doesn't matter when you are always at BS1 no matter what, and they don't get TL Autocannons.

They do when they are in an aegis defence line with the TL AC. Otherwise Telion wouldn't be able to use it either

 MatrixLurtz wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
The reason why you are messing with the quad gun in the first place is so that you can shoot down flyers. Why don't you take devestators instead, they come with a sigmun +1 in bs dont they? Shurly BS5 twin linked autocannons will be enough?

+1BS doesn't matter when you are always at BS1 no matter what, and they don't get TL Autocannons.

They do when they are in an aegis defence line with the TL AC. Otherwise Telion wouldn't be able to use it either

He's talking about using Devastators themselves.

I've prefered the quad gun so far since it simply forces more wound rolls on MCs and can (and has once, not for me unfortunately) deal 4 hull points of damage on a squadron of skimmers (or fliers). The Icarus can only dish out one per turn though with it's strenght it could drop an IC. Regardless Telion on this platform does nearly guarantee a positive result every shooting phase while being hard to rub out with his better cover saves.

Telion leading a sniper Scout unit is a great choice for an ADL.

With a 2+ cover save, the squad will be hard to take down.