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I've been strictly a Warhammer Fantasy player for years but with 6th edition 40K coming out some of my regular gaming pals have decided to venture out into the grim dark future and start armies. Eager to get my futuristic game on, and not wanting to jump on the Space Marine bandwagon (1 chose Blood Angels, 1chose Space Wolves, 1 chose Plague Marines) I checked out all of the armies available and decided to go with Tyranids after a late night viewing of Starship Troopers. A few trades on Dakka later and I had a smallish force to play games with.

My time is limited as I have twin sons and another baby on the way but I've been able to play 3 games so far all against the Space Wolf player, and he has quit on turn 3 in every game. He is that kind of player even in Fantasy.

Game 1: 500 points. Not a whole lot on the battlefield. I've got a Hive Tyrant, some Tyranid Warriors, Devilgants, ripper swarms, and a few spore mines. I was going for numbers mainly as I know he isn't going to be able to field much either. He has a couple of units of Blood Claws with a plasma gun, a unit of Longfangs, with some heavy bolters and plasma cannon, and a rune priest or wolf priest or whatever it is. I'm not too familiar at all with the Wolves Codex so I'm sorry if I get any of the names wrong. We roll up Purge the Alien (very fitting) and get going from there.

We each basically advance and shoot each turn trying to get a grasp for the rules but he is making very poor dice rolls so is taking more casualties than I am. During turn 3 my Tyrant finally stomps over to his priest and eats his face off in combat and at that point he declares me the victor.

Game 2: 1000 points. About a week later we get together again to play. I've got a completely different list cause I want to try out some of my monstrous creatures, so I include a Trygon Prime and a Carnifex, and this time I give the Tyrant some Tyrant Guard. On the wolves side are a unit of bikes and a whole lot of marines, not sure what they are. He gets first turn and proceeds to use the Jaws of the World Wolf psychic power on my Tyrant and at Initiative 5 I naturally roll the 6 and he get sucked under, which enrages the Tyrant Guard. He is absolutely overjoyed and I'm laughing along with him cause I think it's great payback from the first game. Well I figured the game was his until my Trygon Prime came out of it's tunnel and the Tyrant Guard got into combat. These 2 units alone won me that game, they destroyed everything they touched. So at the end of turn 3 he declared me the winner. Never mind that neither of us had claimed any objectives, it didn't matter to him.

Game 3: 1500 points. We roll up the Relic. I've got the Trygon Prime again, a tyranid prime, some Ymgrl, a shooty tyrant with heavy venom cannon, and a I proxy a tervigon with my carnifex. He's got 3 tanks (a whirlwind, a landraider, and a vindicator), Ragnar Blackmane w/ some Terminators and some other fun stuff. The tanks do a lot of damage, but my Ymgrl's destroy the vindicator on turn 2. He is learning to concentrate his fire on my monstrous creatures. My Tyrant only has 1 wound left and the Trygon is down to half wounds. I've lost a ton of Gants and I've only managed to destroy his one tank and 1 unit of bloodclaws. On my turn 3 I have my Trygon grab the Relic (was this legal as he is a heavy support choice?). On his turn 3 he charges the Trygon with a unit of 4 bikers, and it ate all of their faces before they could even swing at it.

At this point he declares that Tyranids are unbeatable and he can't do anything against me. He also tells me he isn't going to play me anymore and maybe we could just stick to fantasy matches. I try to tell him that the game typically lasts 5 turns and despite me having the reclic he certainly has me on the run. He disagrees and starts packing up his stuff, being all grumpy and says he's going to look up how to beat me online and he hates himself for it. I told him I've been looking up tactics online, checking battle reports to see cool Nid builds and what strategies people are using to beat space marines and that it's wise to gather intelligence before a battle. He tells me he doesn't consider it to be wisdom, he considers it weakness.

Really? The accumulated knowledge of a million battles fought on a million worlds is weakness?

So if I ever convince him to play me again should I purposefully try to throw the game to try and make him feel better? He's a good friend of mine and I only have the 2 other friends interested in 40K. The closest FLGS to me is almost an hour away and I usually don't have the time to make the trip. I've been having a lot of fun with my Bugs and it's just sad to see a friend get that bent over it, especially when I've lost plenty of games of Warhammer on turn 5 or 6 when I was winning the whole game. I would think 40K was the same way.

That's about it for now. I can hear my kids waking up. Cheers.

Sorry you friend is a fool if he doesnt consider the council of others. Thats part of true wisdom.

I will grant you that most of the time I realize lists posted here have more to do with the individuals playstyle and what looks like utter junk can be champion lists because of the player.

But I heed the advice nonetheless.

But IMO, if you throw the game for him. it only makes it worse. My GF finally beat me the other day after countless losses. Now she's building and planning a whole army's worth of purchases because the win was that much more to here being genuine.

It seems to me like your games are a lot of fun, and if he's refusing to play you because he lost 3 games then it seems to me that he cares more about winning than having a good time.

But even if that is the case, if he's really that upset about it then maybe he should think about his list a bit more, not cheese it out but, I don't know, take Grey Hunters instead of Blood Claws, or heck, maybe even the jump pack Wolves (forgotten what they're called as I never take them) over the bikes, or drop the Whirlwind for some Long Fangs with Heavy Bolters or Plasma Cannons.

If you lose on purpose, your friend may just see it as being patronising.

Go up to 2000 points, thats where horde armies tend to balance out perfectly, so then its up to his list and strategies.

If Space Wolves are getting wrecked by Nids with no Psykers, his lists are awful or he's awful. I'd accept his offer to never play again, as you should be spending your time playing much better players.

You shouldn't have to throw games to satisfy your opponent. Try to help him see the wisdom in looking up tactics online, or at least give him some advice yourself in building his army and using tactics.

Thanks, so far everyone. Yeah he isn't the greatest list builder. I'll be working on mine a week in advance, tweaking and making changes that I think need to be made. He will show up to the game saying he put his list together in the last hour... and then ask me if it's ok if he's 5 points over.

It just sounds like your space heretic opponent doesn't have all his marbles were he needs them.

You don't have to throw games, because you can't please everyone.

Having a similar problem myself. Friend insists my Tzeentch Build is undefeatable...by Grey Knights. He refuses to use new/powerful units in favour of what he's tried (and failed) before. It's depressing.

I play wolves and I can almost say with 100% certainty that his lists are not on equal playing ground. Also him being new to the game he does not know how to fight nids. He needs to learn his opponents, find the weakness, and then act. With him not trolling the net for advice it's going to take a while to find that weakness.

Also there is really no reason to ever take a blood claw unit over a grey hunter unit. Vehicles wreck easy in melee as well. Suggest to him to trick out a wolf lord on an thunder wolf and role in with some thunder wolf calvary leading the way ( gear
them right or fail). 2k points as said before is pretty balanced and don't toss a pitty win his way, make him earn if... If he is like me he will try until he finds a way to do it... Drive.

No, you should not throw your games. Your friend needs to stop valuing winning over a good time.

Back in 5th, one of the good friends I met through this game had a list that I just could not beat. It wasn't the most optimized list out there (and neither was mine) but good heavens, I just could not beat him. It was partially because his list was (inadvertently) quite well-matched against my own. I lost every game to that list, but I didn't once call it quits early nor let the defeat ruin my good time. We'd spin great stories about his coven and my Kabal, smile, joke and so on. We played to have a good time. It helped that he was such a good friend, never gave me grief, never rubbed winning in my face, always took the time after a game to give me pointers on how to do better next game.

I'm very lucky to have had such a good friend take care of me when I was new to the hobby, but I doubt you belittle and treat your friend poorly, especially if you're considering throwing a game just for his happiness. That squarely puts the blame on his shoulders. He gives up too easily, refuses to see things out to the bitter end even if they're looking grim for him. He places too much of his fun's value on winning a game. That's the exact opposite of what it's supposed to be. The game is about the fun. All games are about fun.

I hate looking up video games on youtube. It's cheap, and once you have the knowledge, the challenge is gone.

I imagine he's taking that sentiment, that it's better to learn on your own, and applying it to wargames.

Which is fair enough to an extent, but it's resulted in the problem that you've mastered your learning curve a bit quicker than he has, and as a result he's not fighting matches against someone of a similar skill level even though you've both only just started.

Not much you can do, except stop playing him for a while and let him 'catch up' by playing the other people in your group.

You beat SW. Enjoy it while it lasts. The truly embarassing part here is that SW and Nids is never considered anything near a fair fight. For the Nids.

My gut reaction when anyone acts this way is to continue winning until they learn. My only caveat there is that a friend that I once played many strategy games against now always has something else to do. Now granted, this was after years of defeats, a few ties, and the occasional win, not to mention each game taking upwards of 8 hours as we discussed our plans, cackled to each other in character, and bitched about dice. Following each we would break down the fight and analyze it, figuring out ways to improve.

I understand the belief that looking elsewhere for help seems weak, but I do not agree. Sometimes I come up with brilliant combos on my own, but usually I get a few list ideas, find out why people think it works, then set about refining it for my play style or asthetic needs. Every person who wishes to be a physicist does not sit beneath a tree and contemplate falling apples, only to recreate calculus and physics to calculate gravitational trajectories. Biologists do not recreate the experiments of Linnaus or the observations of Darwin to grasp the inner workings of genetics. They CAN, merely as a means of reproducing methodology, but it is foolish to recreate the wheel just to figure out how to build a faster car. Equally foolish is ONLY looking to others for healp, rather than thinking for yourself. Some lists are plug and play and win for themselves, others take work, though no less successful.

You could try getting together with him over coffee, and discussing what worked and what didn't, all the while feeding him info that you've gleaned online about how to beat Nids (ie: play an army.) That way he doesn't have to dirty his pride, but still gains the intel he clearly needs.

Then there's always the "swap armies and play again" idea, but the people I've encountered that have had similar mind sets to your friend would only then be further humiliated if you beat them with their own army versus the "unbeatable" one.

Always play to win. Otherwise, the game just falls apart and isn't particularly fun.
Granted, you don't have to take the hardest list you can, but don't be incompetent. Play the list you want to play, and play it well, no matter what. Don't throw your games, but if your friend doesn't know what to do, help him out.

My personal rule is that if I'm playing against someone less skilled than me, I won't give them any advice during the game, and let them work it out themselves (if there's a certain choice or action that they may be unaware of, I'll inform them, obviously, but that's the fullest extent). I figure that they deserve enough respect to let them play the game themselves, even if they may not be particularly adept at it. After a game, I'll go over what actions could have done to move the game further in their favour. That way, they can learn from their mistakes.

If I was playing against someone who was sandbagging, I'd probably never play them again.

Never throw a game, but throwing a couple units his way from "poor deployment" to make the game closer isn't such a bad thing-he'll think he's doing better, but strive to continue harder to beat you.

DangerousBeans wrote:...I've been able to play 3 games so far all against the Space Wolf player, and he has quit on turn 3 in every game. He is that kind of player even in Fantasy.

This is a problem that you cannot solve by catering to his poor sportsmanship. That player needs to learn that losing single fights doesn't mean they lost the game, especially since it is fairly easy to come from behind in 40k if your early losses are not too important and you take the objectives. I

Hell, even if all looks lost, it's not hard to force a draw.

Back in 5th edition, I had a game against an Eldar player with my Krieg where the dice just weren't on my side. Eldar player was dismantling me turn by turn while it took me 4 turns to roll well enough to damage a single one of his models. By time we got to the end, I only had two models left: A lone Company Commander and Marbo.

Managed to force a draw by getting both models into combat on top of the objectives. Neither model would die (and the Commander was quite the badass, even if he did end up running away once or twice, he kept coming back to finish the job!).

Just because a game looks completely one-sided, doesn't necessarily mean that's what's going on in the background. I've taken hard losses early and come back, and I've decimated players early and lost hard in return.

If your opponent isn't going to play to the end, he'll never learn how to work around early losses, and won't ever get better. He's beating his head against a brick wall.

Convince him to give it another shot... and then brutally crush his dreams!
No but seriously my buddies have this whole "I don't want to play Necrons because I always loose to them" thing going on. They are still my friends so they will still play. So I feel your pain a little. Someone above pointed out that you can give your opponent advice, which I think is a definitely a good idea. Also if after the game you focus on what they did right they will feel a lot better.

Necronboy wrote:
No but seriously my buddies have this whole "I don't want to play Necrons because I always loose to them" thing going on. They are still my friends so they will still play. So I feel your pain a little. Someone above pointed out that you can give your opponent advice, which I think is a definitely a good idea. Also if after the game you focus on what they did right they will feel a lot better.

In all fairness, I agree with your friends. I won't play against Necrons. They're obscenely powerful, to the point where I can tell how pretty much any game against them will work out in advance. Playing against Necrons is not fun, and it's hardly even worth taking out my models.

They're like the Metaknights of SSBB or Akuma of SSF2T.

When I first started the hobby, it was taught to me by my girlfriend's step-dad back in 2007ish (4th ed). When i started playing I had about 2000 points of Blood Angels, he had over 6500 in CSM. I felt SEVERELY out matched and was right to think so. At first I thought he was beating me because I didn't know the game very well, then it was because he had more options. Eventually I came to the understanding, he's just that freaking good. It was at least 20 games before I finally beat him... and have only beaten him three more times since then.

If you're good, you're good. Playing against him has made me a better player. If your friend doesn't realize that he has something to benefit from you being a good player, then that's up to him. Each victory against someone that you have been trying to beat for a long time is so very sweet. ^_^

Fafnir wrote:

Necronboy wrote:
No but seriously my buddies have this whole "I don't want to play Necrons because I always loose to them" thing going on. They are still my friends so they will still play. So I feel your pain a little. Someone above pointed out that you can give your opponent advice, which I think is a definitely a good idea. Also if after the game you focus on what they did right they will feel a lot better.

In all fairness, I agree with your friends. I won't play against Necrons. They're obscenely powerful, to the point where I can tell how pretty much any game against them will work out in advance. Playing against Necrons is not fun, and it's hardly even worth taking out my models.

They're like the Metaknights of SSBB or Akuma of SSF2T.

Point taken, (Not trying to get into an internet fight here) and though they are a very powerful army right now, they can be beaten. For example I always have trouble with fast moving armies. Also my buddies have had this prejudice since 5th with the old codex, which is well... I don't really have to explain that.

Necronboy wrote:

Fafnir wrote:

Necronboy wrote:
No but seriously my buddies have this whole "I don't want to play Necrons because I always loose to them" thing going on. They are still my friends so they will still play. So I feel your pain a little. Someone above pointed out that you can give your opponent advice, which I think is a definitely a good idea. Also if after the game you focus on what they did right they will feel a lot better.

In all fairness, I agree with your friends. I won't play against Necrons. They're obscenely powerful, to the point where I can tell how pretty much any game against them will work out in advance. Playing against Necrons is not fun, and it's hardly even worth taking out my models.

They're like the Metaknights of SSBB or Akuma of SSF2T.

Point taken, (Not trying to get into an internet fight here) and though they are a very powerful army right now, they can be beaten. For example I always have trouble with fast moving armies. Also my buddies have had this prejudice since 5th with the old codex, which is well... I don't really have to explain that.

Well, that's kind of silly then. Oldcrons may have been boring as hell to fight, but they were in no way overpowered, and nowhere near it.

I don't know if anyone said this already, but only scoring units may pick up the relic.

Crazyterran wrote:I don't know if anyone said this already, but only scoring units may pick up the relic.

Thank you! I knew him grabbing it was too good to be true. So for the Relic, your only scoring units are troops choices? Can HQ pick up the relic or claim objectives? Seems like they should be able to. Back to the rulebook I guess.

A mission's information in the rulebook will detail what counts as a scoring unit. In most cases, troops will be scoring units, and occasionally other FoC entries will as well, depending on the mission.

Fafnir wrote:

Necronboy wrote:

Fafnir wrote:

Necronboy wrote:
No but seriously my buddies have this whole "I don't want to play Necrons because I always loose to them" thing going on. They are still my friends so they will still play. So I feel your pain a little. Someone above pointed out that you can give your opponent advice, which I think is a definitely a good idea. Also if after the game you focus on what they did right they will feel a lot better.

In all fairness, I agree with your friends. I won't play against Necrons. They're obscenely powerful, to the point where I can tell how pretty much any game against them will work out in advance. Playing against Necrons is not fun, and it's hardly even worth taking out my models.

They're like the Metaknights of SSBB or Akuma of SSF2T.

Point taken, (Not trying to get into an internet fight here) and though they are a very powerful army right now, they can be beaten. For example I always have trouble with fast moving armies. Also my buddies have had this prejudice since 5th with the old codex, which is well... I don't really have to explain that.

Well, that's kind of silly then. Oldcrons may have been boring as hell to fight, but they were in no way overpowered, and nowhere near it.

One of my friends is this way about necrons, which was rather annoying because I really liked them and would have bought them as my first army (New fluff turned me away quite a bit from necrons). Even if I never won against a race all it would do is encourage me to try a different list alltogether.

Wardragoon wrote:

Fafnir wrote:

Necronboy wrote:

Fafnir wrote:

Necronboy wrote:
No but seriously my buddies have this whole "I don't want to play Necrons because I always loose to them" thing going on. They are still my friends so they will still play. So I feel your pain a little. Someone above pointed out that you can give your opponent advice, which I think is a definitely a good idea. Also if after the game you focus on what they did right they will feel a lot better.

In all fairness, I agree with your friends. I won't play against Necrons. They're obscenely powerful, to the point where I can tell how pretty much any game against them will work out in advance. Playing against Necrons is not fun, and it's hardly even worth taking out my models.

They're like the Metaknights of SSBB or Akuma of SSF2T.

Point taken, (Not trying to get into an internet fight here) and though they are a very powerful army right now, they can be beaten. For example I always have trouble with fast moving armies. Also my buddies have had this prejudice since 5th with the old codex, which is well... I don't really have to explain that.

Well, that's kind of silly then. Oldcrons may have been boring as hell to fight, but they were in no way overpowered, and nowhere near it.

One of my friends is this way about necrons, which was rather annoying because I really liked them and would have bought them as my first army (New fluff turned me away quite a bit from necrons). Even if I never won against a race all it would do is encourage me to try a different list alltogether.

The problem with Newcrons is that, assuming they're played competently, and assuming that the dice aren't being ridiculous, they should never lose. The tools that they have available to them, combined with the core ruleset, makes almost every matchup weighted incredibly in their favour.

Essentially, it comes down to this argument when facing a Necron player: If he's competent, then there's no way I should be able to win against him. Period. If he's incompetent, then I have no business in playing him.

Fafnir wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:

Fafnir wrote:

Necronboy wrote:

Fafnir wrote:

Necronboy wrote:
No but seriously my buddies have this whole "I don't want to play Necrons because I always loose to them" thing going on. They are still my friends so they will still play. So I feel your pain a little. Someone above pointed out that you can give your opponent advice, which I think is a definitely a good idea. Also if after the game you focus on what they did right they will feel a lot better.

In all fairness, I agree with your friends. I won't play against Necrons. They're obscenely powerful, to the point where I can tell how pretty much any game against them will work out in advance. Playing against Necrons is not fun, and it's hardly even worth taking out my models.

They're like the Metaknights of SSBB or Akuma of SSF2T.

Point taken, (Not trying to get into an internet fight here) and though they are a very powerful army right now, they can be beaten. For example I always have trouble with fast moving armies. Also my buddies have had this prejudice since 5th with the old codex, which is well... I don't really have to explain that.

Well, that's kind of silly then. Oldcrons may have been boring as hell to fight, but they were in no way overpowered, and nowhere near it.

One of my friends is this way about necrons, which was rather annoying because I really liked them and would have bought them as my first army (New fluff turned me away quite a bit from necrons). Even if I never won against a race all it would do is encourage me to try a different list alltogether.

The problem with Newcrons is that, assuming they're played competently, and assuming that the dice aren't being ridiculous, they should never lose. The tools that they have available to them, combined with the core ruleset, makes almost every matchup weighted incredibly in their favour.

Essentially, it comes down to this argument when facing a Necron player: If he's competent, then there's no way I should be able to win against him. Period. If he's incompetent, then I have no business in playing him.

And I would try my hardest to disprove that as an opposing player (saddly newcrons killed the fluff for me). But no one plays Necrons around here.

IMO throwing the game would be an insult to him. just play something fun and relax, do things you want to try and see what happens.

Whether or not you throw a game is based entirely on what you're trying to do. If you want to play games with this person, and if the person won't play you if he loses all the time, then you have to let him win sometimes. End of.

If you want to play against other people that have an ethic more similar to yours (for example, not ragequitting the moment the first bad thing happens - my wife is that way... it's kind of frustrating), well then you're not going to be playing against this person, so it doesn't matter if you beat him senseless on the table only to see him not play anymore.

Really, what do YOU want?