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Pretty straightfoward guys, as the title says, do Guardsmen count as 25% for cover purposes for tanks? I'm usually running over a 100 guardsmen in most lists, and this question has come up several times. The guardsmen cover roughly half of the hull (aka about a 3rd of the entire tank counting the turret) and if they pack in enough it can get hard to see the bottom half of the tank at all.

The thing is, these are guardsmen after all. I feel like I should be getting cover based on what I can see of the tank, but I can understand where some opponents come from with the tanks not getting any cover from regular infantry. One of the vets suggested against most infantry based threats, yes, the tank would be given cover, as they have to shoot through the guardsmen to hit it. However, against things like fliers or walkers, that can see over the guardsmen, the tank would NOT receive a cover save. This makes sense to me, but is this how the rules work?

Any help would be appreciated guys! It's not a big deal if the infantry doesn't provide cover, but if I've got a 33% chance of negating any glance or pen, I would like to be able to use that.

If the infantry block enough LOS, then they provide cover. There is nothing preventing infantry from giving cover to vehcles.

Anything that blocks LoS to any vehicle counts for the 25% coverage.

You will need to actually get a firing models eye view (Or from the weapon mount along the barrel in the case of vehicles firing at the tank) to see if the tank is actually covered 25% or more. this is not something we can determine for you. It is something you have to look at through True LoS.

It doesn't matter what provides the 25%. Obscured is obscured.

As to the other issue; why do you, or the vet, attempt to apply a blanket-rule (at least that is what it looks like to me) to some thing that is perfectly clear in the rules.
While Guardsmen are capable are providing a cover save to a Leman Russ, you cannot say that they are always able to do so.
When trying to determine whether 25% of the Leman Russ is obscured you bend down and check LOS.
Depending on the placement of the weapon/ firing model a cover-save might not be provided after all.

It did work in 5th with 50%, so I see no reason why it shouldn't in 6th.

Its damn hard to tell if the guards do give 25% or not in many cases, as their outlines are not rectangular.

Post a photo - someone will count the pixels.

Looks like 25% to me. However, I am too lazy to really math-hammer it out.

It's 25%, but the vox doesn't count, it's decorative and not part of the original model.

juraigamer wrote:It's 25%, but the vox doesn't count, it's decorative and not part of the original model.

Which means you cannot use it to draw los to the model. It still blocks los like wings or banners.

Happyjew wrote:

juraigamer wrote:It's 25%, but the vox doesn't count, it's decorative and not part of the original model.

Which means you cannot use it to draw los to the model. It still blocks los like wings or banners.

QFT.

Also, unless the SM is shooting at the Guardsmen's feet, that's not a very accurate picture of how the LOS to the Russ is being blocked.

Regardless, as others have said, it's TLOS and very situational. Anything that can physically block LOS is valid for determining cover/obscurement.

DoW

I'm confused. My understanding of 5th clearly indicated that infantry could never provide cover for vehicles or walkers. Was this entry absent in 6th or did I just completely misinterpret the rules to begin with?

I do not remember any such rule in 5th.

Maybe you were thinking that having infantry between you and a vehicle alone did not provide cover, they also had to obscure 50% (in 5th)?

That was and still is true. Unlike infantry, who if you shoot at them through another unit, they get cover.

pretre wrote:Maybe you were thinking that having infantry between you and a vehicle alone did not provide cover, they also had to obscure 50% (in 5th)?

That was and still is true. Unlike infantry, who if you shoot at them through another unit, they get cover.

Ahh, that was it. Infantry provided automatic cover for eachother if you attempted to shoot through intervening units. They did not however automatically provide cover to vehicles. So 5th > 6th took the rule from 50% obscure to 25%, thus making it more likely to end up with situations where infantry can provide cover for vehicles.

HMM... interesting.

Yep, and intervening units still provide cover to infantry the same way as before, just fyi.

Ya dont count the turret wither right? Rules say hull down... Oh and mentions terain or models as blockers. so YES

Why wouldn't the turret count?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rulebook wrote:When a unit fires at a vehicle, it must be able to see its
hull or turret (ignoring the vehicle'sgun barrels,antennas,
decorativebanner poles,etc.)

Ok so it would be on a per situation basis. For example, say I have an enemy guardsman shooting a meltagun at the russ through my infantry squad. That would get the 25% needed for a cover save.

However, say a sentinel with a lascannon is shooting at the russ. It is tall enough to easily see over the guardsmen, and therefore the russ would have no cover save at all.

Does this sound like a correct way to follow it?

Something like that although you cannot use that as "One rule to rule them all".
You need to actually determine if 25% of the vehicle is obscured in each and and every case, drawing LOS from the eyes of infantry models and/or along the barrels of vehicle weapons.

The elevation of the firing model and the distance between the Leman Russ and the Guardsmen all affect the percentage that is covered.

Steelmage99 wrote:Something like that although you cannot use that as "One rule to rule them all".
You need to actually determine if 25% of the vehicle is obscured in each and and every case, drawing LOS from the eyes of infantry models and/or along the barrels of vehicle weapons.

The elevation of the firing model and the distance between the Leman Russ and the Guardsmen all affect the percentage that is covered.

That's what I was saying, I was just providing examples of each situation.

I thought if you shot through units you would give cover saves anyways...

Makutsu wrote:I thought if you shot through units you would give cover saves anyways...

Against anny kind of infantry (or jump, or MCs, or bikes, etc.) yes. If any part of the model is blocked by an intervening unit, then 5+ cover save. If a gant is blocking my Tervigons left talon its a save. However, vehicles MUST get 25% to the best of my knowledge.

So when invading Canada remember to institute Operation Human Shield (or Operation Hide Behind the Darkies, depending on your point fo view )