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Hi guys and gals, I started an Indiegogo campaign to help reopen my local gaming store, Please take a look, Contribute if you can, share if you can't and leave me some feedback! Thanks!
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/144440?a=702549#_=_

oh great, now crowd funding is being used to try and keep failing businesses afloat. I think there needs to be a new separate kickstarter/indigogo forum here on dakka.

I don't feel that crowd funding programs should be used in such a manner as this, nor should that site even exist. It's funding gone wild.

If you want to start a store, take out a bank loan.

 Daggermaw wrote:
oh great, now crowd funding is being used to try and keep failing businesses afloat. I think there needs to be a new separate kickstarter/indigogo forum here on dakka.

I'm sorry, who made you Lord of Crowdfunding?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 juraigamer wrote:
I don't feel that crowd funding programs should be used in such a manner as this, nor should that site even exist. It's funding gone wild.

If you want to start a store, take out a bank loan.

I'm not starting a new store, and many small businesses are using crowdfunding instead of bank loans which come with high interest rates.

 juraigamer wrote:
I don't feel that crowd funding programs should be used in such a manner as this,

If you want to start a store, take out a bank loan.

In which manner should it be used?

I thought the whole idea of crowd-funding was to let the crowd decide what they want to throw their money at... not subject stuff to the scrutiny of a single person.

The argument with the bank loan applies just as well to a business that wants to churn out a new gaming product.. say a Zombicide boardgame or an extended Bones miniature line.

Arguably it applies more so to the latter because they are profitable without crowd-funding (and hence should pay investors proper shares of the profits, not short-sale them with output from the production), while the former likely wouldn't get cash from the market.

crowd funding a product like zombicide gets me something I might not otherwise be able to get. like a board game or set of miniatures.

funding this gets me a t shirt or mug to a store I'll never visit because it's 3000 miles from me.

this is not crowd funding, it's more like a PBS charity drive.

 Daggermaw wrote:
crowd funding a product like zombicide gets me something I might not otherwise be able to get. like a board game or set of miniatures.

funding this gets me a t shirt or mug to a store I'll never visit because it's 3000 miles from me.

this is not crowd funding, it's more like a PBS charity drive.

I guess you won't be satisfied with someone being grateful to you for a small contribution to help their dreams come true or to have your name placed in for those of us 3000 miles away to thank.

well generaly the sucsesfull crowdfunding projects are to fund a new idea ..not to just ask people to donate money to a failing business model !
..if the store is closeing down then its for a reason ether lack of custom _{in which case asking for money to buy more stock isnt going to do anything but delay the inevitable closure}.

or lack of interest ie the store isnt doing anything to drive new customer growth {i expect it has a core base of gamers who have been useing it for years and arnt as a rule as big perchasers as new players } ?

ether way even if this is funded then it will only delay the inevitable closeing of this shop. and i cant relly see any one who isnt a current customer as other than a random mug and t shirt for $150 there isnt anything in it for them {for the same amount of money i got 2 sets of sedition wars over 200 minis }...so again the only people who will see a return from this are the shop owner who is basicly being given a tax free non repayable $25.000 and the local gamers who will get to continue playing there...and if they were that comited then they surly would have voted with there wallets ?

There are multiple gaming stores within 50 miles of Riverside. That and the fact SoCal is basically the mecca of GW in Cal is likely to prevent this from gaining any significant support.

 Daggermaw wrote:
crowd funding a product like zombicide gets me something I might not otherwise be able to get. like a board game or set of miniatures.

That is the point. Crowd-funding isn't supposed to get you anything. It's not a pre-order. It is not an investment. You have no customer rights and no investor-returns.

Crowd-funding is just that... funding.

If some people have turned the cute idea of adding "little carrots" along the way into the main show, that is perhaps unfortunate. But that is not what crowd-funding is.

 CURNOW wrote:
well generaly the sucsesfull crowdfunding projects are to fund a new idea ..not to just ask people to donate money to a failing business model !
..if the store is closeing down then its for a reason ether lack of custom _{in which case asking for money to buy more stock isnt going to do anything but delay the inevitable closure}.

or lack of interest ie the store isnt doing anything to drive new customer growth {i expect it has a core base of gamers who have been useing it for years and arnt as a rule as big perchasers as new players } ?

ether way even if this is funded then it will only delay the inevitable closeing of this shop. and i cant relly see any one who isnt a current customer as other than a random mug and t shirt for $150 there isnt anything in it for them {for the same amount of money i got 2 sets of sedition wars over 200 minis }...so again the only people who will see a return from this are the shop owner who is basicly being given a tax free non repayable $25.000 and the local gamers who will get to continue playing there...and if they were that comited then they surly would have voted with there wallets ?

Firstly, I've seen plenty of people using crowdfunding to keep their businesses afloat
Secondly, I've noticed that you haven't looked at my campaign because you would know that we are focused on customer growth as new players are welcome and we take the time to find out what interests them and what games are right for them.
Thirdly, The t-shirt perk comes with a discount, and I can tell that you are not the type to have a mug to hold your paint brushes or water to paint your mini's.( so what are you doing here?)
and last but not least, we gave back to our community, again you didn't look at the campaign.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Centurionpainting wrote:
There are multiple gaming stores within 50 miles of Riverside. That and the fact SoCal is basically the mecca of GW in Cal is likely to prevent this from gaining any significant support.

50 miles is a long drive, especially with gas prices, there are 2 other stores that I know of, both are pretty far. none are like home.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Daggermaw wrote:
crowd funding a product like zombicide gets me something I might not otherwise be able to get. like a board game or set of miniatures.

That is the point. Crowd-funding isn't supposed to get you anything. It's not a pre-order. It is not an investment. You have no customer rights and no investor-returns.

Crowd-funding is just that... funding.

If some people have turned the cute idea of adding "little carrots" along the way into the main show, that is perhaps unfortunate. But that is not what crowd-funding is.

Wrong, funding is exactly that. No one anywhere funds anything without a return on an investment. whether its a bank providing funding for a business or me providing funding to get zombicide. What you're talking about is charity.

Firstly, I've seen plenty of people using crowdfunding to keep their businesses afloat
Secondly, I've noticed that you haven't looked at my campaign because you would know that we are focused on customer growth as new players are welcome and we take the time to find out what interests them and what games are right for them.
Thirdly, The t-shirt perk comes with a discount, and I can tell that you are not the type to have a mug to hold your paint brushes or water to paint your mini's.( so what are you doing here?)
and last but not least, we gave back to our community, again you didn't look at the campaign.

Shouldn't the business already have been focused on customer growth? Someone else brought up a good point. $25k is good for how many months of rent plus the order of more stock? 6 months? a year? What happens when that year is up and there hasn't been growth? Another funding?

Most of the successful kickstarters I've seen are selling me on something, maybe not a product but at least an idea. What're you selling me on here?

Aye, I've seen some wacky stuff on Kickstarter get funded, like open air dramatic groups planning to do a lone festival, or visit town centres, school preformaces and various other odd little bits and bobs.

All kinds of things on these funding sites. If folks want to fund it, they'll fund it, if not, why does it matter either way. If you don't like it, don't put up any cash, simple as.

 Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:
Aye, I've seen some wacky stuff on Kickstarter get funded, like open air dramatic groups planning to do a lone festival, or visit town centres, school preformaces and various other odd little bits and bobs.

All kinds of things on these funding sites. If folks want to fund it, they'll fund it, if not, why does it matter either way. If you don't like it, don't put up any cash, simple as.

I don't care if people want to put these up on kickstarter or where ever. I'm just getting tired of seeing them pop up on the dakka news/rumors page, this is not news or rumors.

At last count there were about 10 crowd funding threads going. It's a bit excessive.

 Daggermaw wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Daggermaw wrote:
crowd funding a product like zombicide gets me something I might not otherwise be able to get. like a board game or set of miniatures.

That is the point. Crowd-funding isn't supposed to get you anything. It's not a pre-order. It is not an investment. You have no customer rights and no investor-returns.

Crowd-funding is just that... funding.

If some people have turned the cute idea of adding "little carrots" along the way into the main show, that is perhaps unfortunate. But that is not what crowd-funding is.

Wrong, funding is exactly that. No one anywhere funds anything without a return on an investment. whether its a bank providing funding for a business or me providing funding to get zombicide. What you're talking about is charity.

Firstly, I've seen plenty of people using crowdfunding to keep their businesses afloat
Secondly, I've noticed that you haven't looked at my campaign because you would know that we are focused on customer growth as new players are welcome and we take the time to find out what interests them and what games are right for them.
Thirdly, The t-shirt perk comes with a discount, and I can tell that you are not the type to have a mug to hold your paint brushes or water to paint your mini's.( so what are you doing here?)
and last but not least, we gave back to our community, again you didn't look at the campaign.

Shouldn't the business already have been focused on customer growth? Someone else brought up a good point. $25k is good for how many months of rent plus the order of more stock? 6 months? a year? What happens when that year is up and there hasn't been growth? Another funding?

Most of the successful kickstarters I've seen are selling me on something, maybe not a product but at least an idea. What're you selling me on here?

I'm selling you a chance to help the wargaming community here and as a whole, to contribute to something bigger than yourself and your small world. we give back to our local community, and if we didn't have our store name pulled out from under us we'd still be up and running!

Daggermaw wrote:

Wrong, funding is exactly that. No one anywhere funds anything without a return on an investment. whether its a bank providing funding for a business or me providing funding to get zombicide. What you're talking about is charity.

No. You get a return on an investment for an investment. Funding is not an investment. There is a reason Kickstarter & co. call them "backers" and not "investors" or "customers". And while I am sure you'll get your Zombicide-box soon, "backing" the project does not give you any legal entitlement to the "promises" in the way a pre-order, say, at GW would (which is, in turn, already a sales-contract.. the corners-stone of good old business, which a Kickstarter is not).

Also, a consumer good such as a game is never a "return on investment".

If GW is struck by God's wrath while your pre-order is in the pipeline, you are entitled to a replacement, refund, whatever. If CMON is struck by God's wrath with your "pledge" still in the pipeline, that is your problem. GW balances the risk of loss via the good old "crowd-investement" tool fo the stock market. There, your risk of loss is compensated with the prospect of steady returns on investment, not with a shipment of consumer goods.

Approaching a Kickstarter "for the loot you get" is an investor's risk when things go wrong, but only a customers pay-off when things go well. Economically that is likely most stupid thing you could do.

Charity goes to those in need.

Funding goes to those who apply for it with a worthy project (say.. for a "non-crowd" funding example, an application for a university-scholarship, which is given according to the academic merit of the proposal).

@Daggermaw - Well surely that's a call for the Dakka admins and Mods, its still a minute number of threads in the grand scheme of things.

If something bothered me like that, I wouldn't even open it to check, a fair few threads like that for me in OT.

 juraigamer wrote:
I don't feel that crowd funding programs should be used in such a manner as this, nor should that site even exist. It's funding gone wild.

If you want to start a store, take out a bank loan.

I don't believe there is ever a right or wrong way to seek funding for a project/business (as long as it is being represented truthfully). Why not seek funding from as many people as possible as opposed to a loan or a few big investors? I fail to see why that would upset you. Nobody is twisting your arm to contribute.

While charity is indeed allowed by kickstarter, please don't pretend you're "selling" us anything by claiming we're buying (hey, that's the flip side of selling, isn't it?) a contribution to the greater wargaming community. Lol, which shelf will you be putting your boxed karma on in the store? While this is allowed by both Kickstarter and dakka as technically news, I'm choosing to simply not support this petition for a handout and voicing my opinion here. I see this as no better than threads in the swap shop that ask people to send you stuff for free.

Why all the hate?

I'm not contributing, I don't live In California, but maybe some people will, each to their own.

Contribute, don't contribute, utterly ignore it, but really, what's the point in the hatred? Its a touch economy, people are doing whatever they can to try and get by, why do you have to go pissing in peoples fething cornflakes?

Ignore the campaign, but don't act like you just caught the bloke fingering your sister. You have nothing to be offended about.

This seems like desperate panhandling rather than a properly considered campaign:

1) The page says "I'm not the owner", that's a massive red flag

2) Nothing of significance benefits anyone outside SoCal.

3) There are no specifics - you've set a $25k target to go towards paying "rent and the next order to distributors"
Well, how much rent does 25K buy? a year? 6 months? hardly seems worth contributing to the continued running of a store if it'll only stay open half a year.

4) You want to "reopen the store", well, for it to be the same store you need to have all the necessary paperwork ready for things like transferring the business' name and assets to you - do you have an agreement in place to this effect? if not, are you really "reopening the store", or "opening a new store in the place where one has already failed"?

You don't need to do any of this to get donations, but put together it gives the impression you saw all these crowdfunding projects and thought "ooh, free money for my pie-in-the-sky project!"

so no, I won't be donating, because I don't see how this benefits anyone outside the store's immediate vicinity, it's not new or innovative, and the rewards are kinda rubbish.

Investment (incl. Crowd-Investment, eg. Stockmarkets)

Wiki wrote:
Investment has different meanings in finance and economics. Finance investment is putting money into something with the expectation of gain, that upon thorough analysis, has a high degree of security for the principal amount, as well as security of return, within an expected period of time.[1] In contrast putting money into something with an expectation of gain without thorough analysis, without security of principal, and without security of return is gambling.

Investment is related to saving or deferring consumption. Investment is involved in many areas of the economy, such as business management and finance whether for households, firms, or governments.

Emphasis Mine. Note that investment is deferred consumption, while "buying" a Zombicide-box is actually quite the opposite: namely consumption of a consumer good.


Funding (incl. Crowd-funding, eg. Kickstarter)

Wiki wrote:
Funding is the act of providing resources, usually in form of money (financing), or other values such as effort or time (sweat equity), for a project, a person, a business or any other private or public institutions. The process of soliciting and gathering fund is known as fundraising.

Sources of funding include credit, donations, grants, savings, subsidies, taxes, Fundings such as donations, subsidies and grants that have no direct requirement for return of investment are described as "soft funding" or "crowd funding".

.

Note that "funding" can be given for "a business", but unlike an investment, there is no direct requirement for a return on investment (hence why you have no "right" to your goodies on Kickstarter, even if you (wrongly) consider them your "returns").

Charity (incl. Crowd-charity, eg. Oxfam)

dictionary wrote:
char·i·ty (chr-t)
n. pl. char·i·ties
1. Provision of help or relief to the poor; almsgiving.
2. Something given to help the needy; alms.
3. An institution, organization, or fund established to help the needy.
4. Benevolence or generosity toward others or toward humanity.

Note how charity is not given to projects or business, but to individuals in need (not to individuals worthy of support, as it may be in funding).

OP, i think you are doing the right thing.

I do think you are going about it the wrong way.

Now, there has to be a story here. About how the old store closed, you mentioned something about losing the naming rights?

When i read your kickstarter page, i am very sorry, but the only part that stands out is " pay the rent " and no one backs a project to help someones rent.

Your logo is good and your cause is just. Your implementation could use work.

Firstly, indiegogo: You are located in california. Why not use kickstarter? Most of the people in your area who will benefit from a renewed gaming store, they are on kickstarter. This helps so that even if the project fails, you have gotten some free advertising. You will find that everyone who finds your indiegogo that is local would have been referred there.

Secondly: Tell your story! I want to know about the place, why it needs my help and why its worth my money! Did you run it into the ground? Or was that someone else?

Thirdly: How will the money help? Rent and distributor costs are fine. But a more detailed breakdown of the financial situation will put potential backers at ease. Sometimes, these projects report getting free help from financial people who find the project through kickstarter, and lend a hand. Inspire us with your plan for the money. It doesnt as said upthread have to be something we recieve later on, it does have to be something we want to see happen. "Rent and miniatures" doesnt cut it.

Please have another look at your campaign, i would be happy to contribute once you get on message.

Hope this helps.

Appsblogger has a nice infographic on what works on Kickstarter (and presumably Indiegogo).

The holy trinity of success you may want to consider is

1. A video (get personal)
2. Facebook friends (where's your page?)
3. Get featured!

(large graphic)

So you're saying crowd-funding is charity without me being able to deduct it from my taxes. Yeah, I don't buy that. Nothing in life is free, somebody "3000 miles away" thanking me for just throwing my hard-earned money at them and getting nothing in return is not a wise investment of said hard-earned money.

Best of luck but I don't agree and won't be kicking-in on things like this.

1.) Why was the old store closed? Too few customers? Too strong competition by other stores nearby or Internet?
2.) How will a one time "gift" of 25.000$ change that? Or do you plan to make regular indiegogo campaigns to keep an unsuccessful business afloat?

I took part in two kickstarter campaigns, because I got something great for it (Zombiecide, Sedition Wars). And a 100$ T-shirt with the logo of a local store in California is not the same. I'd rather support MY local store.

Bad idea is bad.
You should do this locally, and advertise locally.
The pool of invested people on an internet forum is going to be next to zero and annoyed.

I'm going to be a little cold here and give a little lesson in free market economy. If a business fails, it can be attributed to a plethora of things, ranging from inept ownership, lack of customers, better competition, bad location, etc., etc.

After reading your pitch on the site, I have absolutely no insight as to why this store closed down. One person mentioned that the previous owner donated money to cancer research, which, while a very respectable and noble thing, is not smart business practice when the business you own is going under. So, going on that little insight, it sounds like bad ownership was partly to blame, which is something that can be fixed. However, if there is more to it than bad ownership, like say the fact that on any given day there were maybe two or three customers that came into the store, and maybe one or two bought something...well that's tougher to fix. Sure, and aggressive advertising campaign could bolster sales, but sometimes that's not enough. Is the market bloated in your area? If somebody outside of the folks that enjoyed that store are going to give money, they need to know why the store failed. I know if I"m giving my money to a cause, I want to know that I'm not giving it to something hopeless. I'd rather burn a stack of my money than watch it be pissed away in a fruitless endeavor.

My last statement involves your qualifications...you say you have been in retail for 12 years...that really means absolutely nothing. For all I know, you could have been working at Best Buy as a customer service rep during your teenage and college years. That's retail experience. Now, if you said "I have a bachelor's in business management, and have owned several successful businesses myself," then I'd tend to give you the nod of approval, noting that you might have the skill to pull this off. But, what it sounds like to me is that you enjoyed playing at this store, and you are sad to see it go. There is more to a business than raising a few bucks and giving it to the owner so he'll open it back up so you can keep playing.

You come off as somebody who is desperate to the point of irrationality that you'd try to get people to give you money to bring back your beloved gaming haven. I understand the feeling you get when something you love is taken away, but sometimes you have to move on. My advice, if you're really dead set on this, polish things up, do more research, and give us more than the "My poor FLGS shut down, and I'd sell my soul to have it back" spiel. Make it more professional, and less a plea. Get your model down, present it, and you just might pull it off. Otherwise, please save yourself the heartbreak of failure and find a new hangout, and I promise you'll be better off for it.

Edit: For readability.

@OP You may not want to walk this road as this would be considered under similar guise as selling shares etc and the Dept of Labor tends to strike hard on this one. We have a local shop going under with the owner looking at the next 30 years in a federal pen because he was taking payments to help suppot his store through social media sites etc with no return to the clients. Their is a lot of legal issues behind doing something like this and unless you hire a lawyer to lay it all out for you you are walking a fine line and the results can be dire. Honestly reach out to some of the customers or friends and look for a small investing group.

Uh....it's Riverside.....There are already at least two truly good stores in Riverside. And one of them, GMI Games is friggin amazing....Adventurer's Guild is solid and been around forever.

11 Independents Selling GW and 3 GW Stores within 30 Miles of the center point of Riverside. Yeah, if you can't make it then it's likely a problem with the business, not demand.