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So, I just noticed in the Eldar FAQ that it doesn't specify what power weapons that Banshees use, so an idea struck me, what if you gave them all power mauls? This means that compared to Scorpions, they have 1 less attack and armour save, but the have 1 additional strength, they always strike at initiative 10 and have fleet.

Discuss.

I don't know if you could give them mauls or no, but problem with banshees is not in their power weapons nerf... They still do same damage against 95% of units, and squads like terminators would die from mere number of blows...
True nerf is no assault vehicles or open topped transports in eldar codex... Banshees die in shooting and have no means of transport, and you don't want them out in the open for entire turn after disambarking...
Other nerf is overwatch, for now few banshees die before striking back (e.g. if assaulting 10 man marine squad, they would kill four banshees before they charge, and if they had a turn to shoot at them before just with bolters for the sake of arguing, then 9 more would die)...
So power maul or not, they are still crap untill some small assault or open topped vehicle comes in new codex, where your power swords would be defined anyways....

Disagree Chinchilla, its totally the power weapon nerf. I specifically put banshees in my list for the ap2 termie killer. But now they are useless to them. They have been taken out of my list. I don't like it, but GW has shown no love for the banshees. so you go with the flow. Imo

Eldar still have options for dealing with Termies: Fire Dragons immediately spring to mind, but I agree that Banshees have definitely taken a blow with the arrival of 6th. I think that one reasonable way to improve them would be to improve the Exarch weapons, perhaps an Ap2 Executioner, or simpy give them a Dodge save, similar to that on Wyches.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Eldar still have options for dealing with Termies: Fire Dragons immediately spring to mind, but I agree that Banshees have definitely taken a blow with the arrival of 6th. I think that one reasonable way to improve them would be to improve the Exarch weapons, perhaps an Ap2 Executioner, or simpy give them a Dodge save, similar to that on Wyches.

While a Dodge save would be nice, it still wouldn't be what you'd expect from Elite assault troups. The problem is still not solved by changing the Banshees themselves, the problem right is the delivery systems that Eldar have at their disposal, none of them being Assault vehicles is the biggest problem. Right now I sometimes use small (5-6) Banshee units as an assault detterent for my Wraithguard. It's not perfect but the unit is usually small enough to avoid getting shot to gak, not what they are intended for but most of the assault troops in the codex have been reduced to a counter-assault choice instead of a more aggressive role.

Chinchilla wrote: e.g. if assaulting 10 man marine squad, they would kill four banshees before they charge,

How do you work that one out?

20 shots hitting on 6s = 3.3hits. 3.3 hits on 3s to wound = 2.2 wound. Banshees take armour save = 1.1 dead.

People need to stop this "ARGH OVERWATCH KILLS ALL ASSAULT UNITS" thing. As an Ork Player, I can tell you how hard it is to be hitting on 5s, let alone 6s.

lockdar wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
Eldar still have options for dealing with Termies: Fire Dragons immediately spring to mind, but I agree that Banshees have definitely taken a blow with the arrival of 6th. I think that one reasonable way to improve them would be to improve the Exarch weapons, perhaps an Ap2 Executioner, or simpy give them a Dodge save, similar to that on Wyches.

While a Dodge save would be nice, it still wouldn't be what you'd expect from Elite assault troups. The problem is still not solved by changing the Banshees themselves, the problem right is the delivery systems that Eldar have at their disposal, none of them being Assault vehicles is the biggest problem. Right now I sometimes use small (5-6) Banshee units as an assault detterent for my Wraithguard. It's not perfect but the unit is usually small enough to avoid getting shot to gak, not what they are intended for but most of the assault troops in the codex have been reduced to a counter-assault choice instead of a more aggressive role.

Yeah, means of delivery has always been the problem for Banshees. I used to run them with a Farseer, casting Fortune on them whilst hugging terrain. It worked ok, especially with my ther units keeping the enemy busy, but it was by no means flawless. I hear we may be getting a webway portal though. High hopes for that

I wouldn't hold out hopes for a portal. They FAQ'd Dark Eldar's to make it clear no assault was allowed out of it.

Best use for Banshee's is the shelf. If you have the old metal ones then you can use them as paper weights, or maybe throw them at intruders.

 The Shadow wrote:

Chinchilla wrote: e.g. if assaulting 10 man marine squad, they would kill four banshees before they charge,

How do you work that one out?

20 shots hitting on 6s = 3.3hits. 3.3 hits on 3s to wound = 2.2 wound. Banshees take armour save = 1.1 dead.

I took it as he was counting the whole turn the banshees have to sit there doing nothing before they assault? You can't just stop the transport and assault out of it the next turn any longer. You have to disembark, take a round of shooting, then charge and take more overwatch shots. And banshees getting ready to assault would probably attract more than one unit's worth of shooting in the first turn.

 The Shadow wrote:

How do you work that one out?

20 shots hitting on 6s = 3.3hits. 3.3 hits on 3s to wound = 2.2 wound. Banshees take armour save = 1.1 dead.

People need to stop this "ARGH OVERWATCH KILLS ALL ASSAULT UNITS" thing. As an Ork Player, I can tell you how hard it is to be hitting on 5s, let alone 6s.

Beat me to it. As far as changes from 5th to 6th are concerned, overwatch is very low down on the list of important ones.

Kevlar wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

Chinchilla wrote: e.g. if assaulting 10 man marine squad, they would kill four banshees before they charge,

How do you work that one out?

20 shots hitting on 6s = 3.3hits. 3.3 hits on 3s to wound = 2.2 wound. Banshees take armour save = 1.1 dead.

I took it as he was counting the whole turn the banshees have to sit there doing nothing before they assault?

Nope. Read-

 Chinchilla wrote:

Other nerf is overwatch, for now few banshees die before striking back (e.g. if assaulting 10 man marine squad, they would kill four banshees before they charge, and if they had a turn to shoot at them before just with bolters for the sake of arguing, then 9 more would die)...

at normal BS, 20 shots, 13.3 hits, 6.6 wounds, 3.3 dead. This must be where he's "killed" 4 banshees on the charge. I don't know where the 9 more dieing comes from.

Also, I LOVE the way we assume 10 tac marines don't have a flamer/missile launcher.

*shakes head a little* I have a squad of 8 banshees with a exarch, and they look very nice in my case. We need some sort of delivery system for them, but until that bright and shining day, the girls are just lots of fun to paint.

And as for the conversion bit, yes, in the codex, our weapons are classified as "unspecified power weapons". And funny that, there's a little entry into our rulebook that says all unspecified power weapons count as ap3, or effectively, power-swords.

this search for power-axe banshee's has me a bit baffled, as has the power-maul discussion. But, as for the unit itself, much as i hate it, my girls get to sleep in thier case till the new codex comes out. Gives me time to finish touching up thier paint jobs, i suppose.

I agree. Power maul banshees are awesome. As well, banshees aren't worth taking. So there you have it.

What I think is more interesting here is the comparison between banshees and scorpions against GEq. Scorpions used to be the better option against squishy targets, what with the +1A and better armor. Now that banshees can take +2S, I think it's now much more up in the air which is the better choice, not just against guard but against every infantry target now.

... of course, whether either of the two are worth taking in 6th ed, well... probably not.

With random charge distances Banshees have fleet Scorps do not. So that gives them a one up on charging.

Banshees were Termie killers in the 3rd edition when it was possible to charge from a Serpent.
But now they are quite useless with their AP3 power weapons.

Not completely useless, though. With maces they're putting down 30 S5 attacks on the charge at a faster initiative speed than anybody else. That's going to make THSS termies cringe still, especially if you can soften them up a bit with S6 spam first. Plus, it would obliterate guard and boyz squads.

But, of course, the problem with banshees isn't killing stuff when they arrive, it's getting there in one piece in the first place. Same as ever, except even more of a challenge now in 6th.

Well, Banshees have a delivering problem.
When you hold them back for counter-strike in a footdar list, they can eventually be shot (other than Harlies).
When you mount them in a transport, they have to stay one round outside the steel coffin before they can charge.

Ailaros, maybe I didn't clarify, but let me go back over my point.

Banshees CANNOT have maces, or axes, or anything along those lines, regardless of model. The BIG rule book clearly states that unspecified power weapons resolve at - str and ap3. So, having unspecified power weapons just means they get power swords just like everyone else.

Its the suck, I know, and hurts thier whole game, but hey, that's what it is.

 VegaGreywolf wrote:
Ailaros, maybe I didn't clarify, but let me go back over my point.

Banshees CANNOT have maces, or axes, or anything along those lines, regardless of model. The BIG rule book clearly states that unspecified power weapons resolve at - str and ap3. So, having unspecified power weapons just means they get power swords just like everyone else.

Its the suck, I know, and hurts thier whole game, but hey, that's what it is.

the big rule book states that special or unique power weapons resolve at AP3.

It says that regular orginary power weapons, like the kind banshees have, are either a power mace, sword, or ax depending on how the model looks. So if you model your banshees to have axes or maces, they do indeed have axes or maces.

Yup.

One of the very few conflations of art and rules I actually approve of.

Even with mauls bashing in units, it is unlikely the banshees will get there in one piece, or survive long after the combat.

Harlequins are the assault unit for eldar in 6th. They have 4 attacks on the charge at S4 like scorpions, but they are also rending. I6 means they strike first against most targets. Need to get out of combat? Then use hit and run! Fighting against power weapons, good thing you have a 5++.

GIve them a shadowseer to keep them around, add a farseer with fortune and a dark eldar archon and bam you have a harliestar..

The only possibility for banshees in 6th is the shelf.

 Dr. Serling wrote:
Even with mauls bashing in units, it is unlikely the banshees will get there in one piece, or survive long after the combat.

Harlequins are the assault unit for eldar in 6th. They have 4 attacks on the charge at S4 like scorpions, but they are also rending. I6 means they strike first against most targets. Need to get out of combat? Then use hit and run! Fighting against power weapons, good thing you have a 5++.

GIve them a shadowseer to keep them around, add a farseer with fortune and a dark eldar archon and bam you have a harliestar..

The only possibility for banshees in 6th is the shelf.

Its not even like they banshees are just outclassed or overshadowed by the harlequins. Banshees just suck in general. With the best tactics and some luck, they are only slightly decent. And that just really sucks, because I love the girls.

 Ailaros wrote:
Not completely useless, though. With maces they're putting down 30 S5 attacks on the charge at a faster initiative speed than anybody else. That's going to make THSS termies cringe still, especially if you can soften them up a bit with S6 spam first. Plus, it would obliterate guard and boyz squads.

Obliterate?
4+ to hit, 3+ to wound. ~10 orks. It's solid, but it isn't obliterate. Against Thammer Terminators, it's ~2 kills.

If you're terminator hunting, I'd go axes. Sure you strike last, but so what?
30 S4 AP2 attacks.
15 hits, 7.5 wounds, should kill 5 normal terminators, or 2-3 Thunder Hammers.
Maybe take 5 of each?

Banshee's aren't elite combat units, because they aren't costed as elite combat units (~30-40 points per model).
You'll still have trouble getting them into combat, but for 160 points, it might not be bad to just have them in the backfield and make your opponent worry.

-Matt

No opponent would worry about banshees. Shoot them. With anything. They die.

 Exergy wrote:

 VegaGreywolf wrote:
Ailaros, maybe I didn't clarify, but let me go back over my point.

Banshees CANNOT have maces, or axes, or anything along those lines, regardless of model. The BIG rule book clearly states that unspecified power weapons resolve at - str and ap3. So, having unspecified power weapons just means they get power swords just like everyone else.

Its the suck, I know, and hurts thier whole game, but hey, that's what it is.

the big rule book states that special or unique power weapons resolve at AP3.

It says that regular orginary power weapons, like the kind banshees have, are either a power mace, sword, or ax depending on how the model looks. So if you model your banshees to have axes or maces, they do indeed have axes or maces.

Is anyone seriously trying this...? like for real are you guys trying to do this?I hate the loop holes being used in this edition just for a power boost... given like it's been said I wouldn't fear banshee's doing this but why on gork's green waaagh do you people think a modifying GW model means you can make it whatever you want? Come on... have some class please.

As far as banshees they have become a defensive troop slayer in my personal opinion, they are still Init: yes, with above average weapon skill this just means you need to be killing marines and avoiding terminators... why all the crying? everything else is the exact same about them and isn't anything other armies aren't facing. the simple fact is you have a 4+ armor where many good assaulting armies do not. Would i take them? No. Same as i wouldn't take Kommandos at this time.

HawaiiMatt wrote:4+ to hit, 3+ to wound. ~10 orks. It's solid, but it isn't obliterate.

Well, you'd be up against 20 of them with a nob. The challenge kills the nob, and the squad has a good chance to reduce it below fearless (and with a massive Ld penalty to boot), and are rather likely to catch in a sweep if that happens.

HawaiiMatt wrote:Against Thammer Terminators, it's ~2 kills.

If you're terminator hunting, I'd go axes... 2-3 Thunder Hammers.

But it does roughly the same damage, and allows them to attack simultaneously, rather than dropping them before they get to attack.

Against claw termies, the banshees would be screwed. Against tac termies, well... that's the problem that banshees have. Getting shot at by storm bolter and assault cannons isn't likely to leave many survivors regardless of the weapon...

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:Is anyone seriously trying this...? like for real are you guys trying to do this?I hate the loop holes being used in this edition just for a power boost...

Lots of people are trying this. I've seen it in my FLGS, not just online.

And it's not a loophole. It's a deliberate rule. If you don't like the idea of modelling having an impact on the game, start with TLoS. This rule here is actually kind of neat.

Ugh, why is a unit considered useless because it can't kill terminators on a 1 to 1 basis now? In previous editions, Banshees were OP, 16 points for a model that will always strike first and ignores armour saves was a bargain considering they could be delivered in HtH by turn 2 without taking a bit of fire.

Now, they can't, you actually have to use cover and tactics to get any use out of them, and oh how unfair, you can't easily kill terminators, a 40+ per model unit, with a 16 point per model Banshee unit.

Yes, I get that TH/SS termies are being spammed like crazy now, which is annoying, and as a Crimson Fist player, I solemnly vow to never take more than 5 TH/SS termies in any given army (hell, I don't even own any right now) because even I think they are OP.

Anyways, back on subject, Banshees are, like every other Eldar unit, highly specialized and just throwing them out there like you could in 5th edition will indeed get them slaughtered. You still have to pack them in a wave serpent and include a tooled up exarch, but you have to actually think now about your target, use them in reserve so they can take out choice targets like dug in devestator squads or tactical units that are sitting on an objective. Yes, you will need to survive a round of shooting, but if you are using cover and supporting units effectively (including your own transport) and using the guns on the serpent to maybe thin out the units that are within range and LOS, most of them will likely survive. And yes, you should most definately avoid terminators. Save those for the fire dragons, wraithlords, and star cannons.

So IMHO, Banshees are NOT useless. Are they still the OP bargains that can take all comers they were in 5th edition? Absolutely not, but that doesn't mean they are useless.

Oh, as far as theidea of giving them power mauls, I say its probably not a good idea because A)the models have swords, B) the fluff text describes the unit as using swords, and C)having such elegent looking models carring around powered baseball bats is just goofy. While its technically allowed within the rules if you modeled them with power mauls, you would most certainly be known as TFG by your opponents, and when the codex comes out next year, you'll have to remodel them back to swords because you know the codex will specify swords this time around.

ClassicCarraway wrote:
Ugh, why is a unit considered useless because it can't kill terminators on a 1 to 1 basis now? In previous editions, Banshees were OP, 16 points for a model that will always strike first and ignores armour saves was a bargain considering they could be delivered in HtH by turn 2 without taking a bit of fire.

I think you're just wrong. Banshees were better in 5th, but they were still not good, even for only 16 points a model. Now they're absolutely bad because it's a T3/4+ model that will never be able to avoid getting shot at before it assaults.

They are considered bad because they are supposed to be a marine killer, but they were never really good at it.

S3 and WS4 made them lackluster against marines at best, even with the charge. And they are too fragile to walk across the board or sit outside their transport for a turn.

Nologik wrote:
I specifically put banshees in my list for the ap2 termie killer.

How often did you honestly bump into terminators in 5th? I know like three guys (granted I know a lot more getting them with the power weapon nerf) personally who ever field terminators, and even then it is rare.