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Hey everybody. I've just jumped into 6th edition, and flyers have me quaking in my boots. I haven't actually faced any yet, but in theory they seem really really tough to beat, especially with me using a foot guard list. Allies are an unlikely option for me, are fortifications my only option? Also, what races have the best fliers, and are there any units without skyfire that can reliably take them down? Many thanks

Let's discuss Blood Lance. That's alllllways a fun discussion when it is referring to how it is used to flyers.

Lootas and Warwalkers with either form of s6 weaponry are the only point efficient way of taking Flyers down without Skyfire.

So, the most obvious way is mid to mid-high S spam.

If you're a guard player, consider the bolter boat punisher, for example. Of 29 S5 shots, a couple of them are going to hit. Another one I've tried recently is the primaris psyker. He's got the S6 DOWN, and if you have an officer nearby to give him BiD, he can be a beast if the dice roll right (up to 12 TL S6 shots with a chance of getting Ap1? Not too damn shabby). Also, of course, you can ADL. If you're willing to be someone who plays vendettas, they've got TL S9 and skyfire. Probably the best single unit in the codex for anti-flier work nowadays.

Also, I'd note that just because fliers are more difficult to hit doesn't mean that they won't fold like the flimsy vehicles that they are when you do. Put a bunch of meltaguns around and you'll likely get a hit in with one of them (especially with BiD), and once you do, it's S8 Ap1 against Av11, even without melta range, that's likely to do some damage.

LR Punisher will only land 4.8 hits and 1.61 glances or better against AV10. It is inefficient, nearly triple the cost for the same effectiveness of Lootas.
Edit: Without BiD, the Primaris Psyker is about half as effective as Lootas.

Using Lootas as the benchmark since they are the most efficient AA unit w/o skyfire.

I don't suppose the hydra is an option? Seems to me like it would be pretty good at eating fliers. Especially if there are 3



Automatically Appended Next Post:
It occurs to me that you said without skyfire.
I'd say anything with a lot of S6 or & shots, like a heavy weapons squad made of autocannon teams under the twin-linking orders

 Amaya wrote:
Lootas and Warwalkers with either form of s6 weaponry are the only point efficient way of taking Flyers down without Skyfire.

They aren't cost efficient since they aren't that great at the role. A full Warwalker squadron with double Scatter Lasers each do just over 1 HP to AV11 and just under 1 HP to AV12 (I don't know why you are comparing to AV10 above when most flyers are AV11). They need Guide/Prescience to be good at the job, and even then they only get just over 2 HP on AV12. As for Lootas, take your average unit of 15, that average 30 shots a turn, they get only 1.6 HP from AV12. AV11 they are good against, but the fact is if you can't beat AV12 flyers then your army isn't good enough for all-comers, because those are the boys to beat.

Annihilation Barges are a good choice vs flyers, as they provide S7 attacks, are TL and can easily get 6 shots per vehicle, all at 90 points while also being quite sturdy at range with AV 13 and also being effective vs light vehicles and infantry.

But then again, could just bring another Nightscythe for 10 points more that is much more likely to kill stuff.

lots of heavy wepons squads with Bring it down i was playing yeaterday i had 9 missle launchers and just kept twin linking them you only hit with 1-3 shots but against Av 11 thats probably enough

 Amaya wrote:
LR Punisher will only land 4.8 hits and 1.61 glances or better against AV10. It is inefficient, nearly triple the cost for the same effectiveness of Lootas.
Edit: Without BiD, the Primaris Psyker is about half as effective as Lootas.

Using Lootas as the benchmark since they are the most efficient AA unit w/o skyfire.

... so?

The imperial guard codex doesn't have access to lootas, so comparing them is meaningless. If you're desperate enough to try and ally orks to a guard army just to get lootas, you've way gone past the point of being desperate enough to just take vendettas.

Black Templar tank hunting terminators with 2 assault cannons does a pretty solid job. Unlike the orks, they can survive a bit of fire from the incoming flyers.

For pure guard choices:
Flyers of your own (both valk and vendetta are solid)
Hydras (not quite as useful due to how easy they are to kill)
Russ Exterminator (4 S7 twin-linked shots)
Heavy Weapon Squad with autocannons and bring it down (6 shots, S7, twin-linked, dirt cheap)

Fortifications works pretty well. The fortress of redemption is a steal for what you get.

-Matt

 Ailaros wrote:
...desperate enough to just take vendettas.

What do you mean by this?

It depends if your group is ok with Forge world units. For foot guard, there is a very good and very fitting anti-flyer option in the latest FW book Aeronautica. Sabre defense platform. You use them instead of Heavy weapon teams. All of them have intercept and skyfire.

Good bye, flyers...DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!

Ageis Defence line with a quad gun will cut through flyers.
A buddy of mine fields 3 storm talons and I have cut them all down within 2 turns because of the squadren rules. One time i blew them up first turn they came in before they could do anything because of interceptor i was lucky and probably wont risk that again lol

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:What do you mean by this?

Well, people who want to take vendettas, fine. Ignore the comment.

For everybody who doesn't want to be one of the ravenous throng of "you must use vendettas to win with guard, BOW TO YOUR NEW OVERLORDS!!!", well, then you've got to make a personal effort to acquiesce to their presence in your lists.

If you go to the armylist forum and you see a list without vendettas in them, the first too many posts will by "why don't you take some vendettas?" If mindless groupthink and vapid peer pressure makes you feel a little dizzy (like I do in such circumstances), then vendettas may not be for you at the moment.

 Ailaros wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:What do you mean by this?

Well, people who want to take vendettas, fine. Ignore the comment.

For everybody who doesn't want to be one of the ravenous throng of "you must use vendettas to win with guard, BOW TO YOUR NEW OVERLORDS!!!", well, then you've got to make a personal effort to acquiesce to their presence in your lists.

If you go to the armylist forum and you see a list without vendettas in them, the first too many posts will by "why don't you take some vendettas?" If mindless groupthink and vapid peer pressure makes you feel a little dizzy (like I do in such circumstances), then vendettas may not be for you at the moment.

Got you. I personally like vendetta, and vultures, which is why i bought them. The punisher vulture is a sweet model.

 Ailaros wrote:

For everybody who doesn't want to be one of the ravenous throng of "you must use vendettas to win with guard, BOW TO YOUR NEW OVERLORDS!!!", well, then you've got to make a personal effort to acquiesce to their presence in your lists.
If you go to the armylist forum and you see a list without vendettas in them, the first too many posts will by "why don't you take some vendettas?" If mindless groupthink and vapid peer pressure makes you feel a little dizzy (like I do in such circumstances), then vendettas may not be for you at the moment.

Hey, there are people in here who actually likes Vendetas/Valkyries because they are nice models! Good rules are just very nice bonus. I do not consider myself mindless because I want to play with the most beautiful mech models that Imperial Guard has. Should I not play with them only because they are one of the strongest units in our codex? (I still think best unit in IG codex is chimera)

Right, which is why I said...

Ailaros wrote:Well, people who want to take vendettas, fine. Ignore the comment.

... right above the rest of the stuff you quoted.

If I write "ignore the next comment" and then I say - for example - that some person is an idiot, do you think that the one person will just ignore that? Really? I do not think so.

rydog708 wrote:
Also, what races have the best fliers

Top three:

1) IG. Excellent flyers that fill any role you want: AA, anti-tank, anti-horde, transport, whatever. And you can take them in both heavy and fast slots, so you have a lot of flexibility compared to armies that have to spend all of a particular slot to get a decent amount of them.

2) Necrons. Cheap and efficient, and really good at deploying infantry where and when they need to be (I hear claiming objectives is important). The only reason they're second to IG is that, while they're very good at their specific role, Necrons flyers are limited in their versatility. If you want something besides mass autocannon fire or the occasional tank killer shot you're going to have to settle for ground units.

3) Eldar. The raw firepower/armor numbers aren't as good as IG or Necrons, but vector dancer is extremely useful and a 2+ evasion save means you might actually survive to come back for another pass. And, while you don't have as many options as IG, at least they occupy different FOC slots. The main issue is they're probably not awesome enough to offset the weakness of the rest of the Eldar army.


After that, it's pretty even. Everyone gets a decent flyer or two, but none of them are so amazing that they'd take priority over other factors in picking an army.

and are there any units without skyfire that can reliably take them down?

Sure. Any unit can take down a flyer if you spend enough points on it.

Now, if you want to know if there's a reliable and cost-effective unit that can do it without skyfire, the answer is no. The simple fact is that any non-skyfire unit is going to cost way more than doing it the right way. And if you go up against serious flyerspam, that inefficiency means you won't have enough AA units to handle everything.

I think flyers are kinda fun. I got to field some for the first time on Tuesday, they performed admirably. I might include the stormtalon more often now. I run it with a cyclone missile so it is great for infantry and good for Armour too! It's not a lot of points and very mobile. I normally foot slog marines. maybe a little drop action, maybe some deep strike termies.

Playing with fast and decently agile units was awesome.

As a foot slogging guard player, why not take some flyers. It is am element of play that on a whole your army just cant do. hell hounds are your next fastest.

O.K..... as guard your pretty much looking at hydras, fliers and/or some form of massed fire.

Vendettas probably are the best option for taking out fliers quickly and efficiently, followed closely by the hydra.

If you want math;

vendettas hit twice on average (BS4, twinlinked) and will get at least 1 penetrating hit vs AV12 on average with +1 to the dammage roll (ap2).

hydra hits 3 times on average, does about 1 HP on average

hvy weapon squad hits once on average, maby twice with BID, 1/3 chance of a HP vs AV 12.

exterminator AC, hits once at most, again maby 1 HP

where the hydra (75 points) catches up to the vendetta (130 points) is in points cost, you can get almost 2 hydras for the cost of a vendetta.

Hvy weapons squads are not cheap, a 80 points for an AC armed squad with less chance to do damage than a hydra. IMO not the best anti flier option unless they are already in your army. Ditto for the exterminator at 150 points base.

honestly for 75 points I'd take a hydra or two, lay down a whole heap of fire, they're also pretty handy for taking out light vehicles, skimmers and light/ medium infantry.

That said, I run a list with a Vendetta in it too, but Ive been doing that since 5th ed. Upside, it can double as a tank hunter and transport vets or stormies.

that said YMMV and what works for me might not work for you.

LC Phyrus:
-Vendettas do not have BS 4
-heavy weapon AC squad costs 75 points, not 80
-hydras are not good for taking out light vehicles or any sort of infantry, because they do not have intercept rule, which is why I think they are not worth it in 6th edition
-using flyers as transport is not really a good thing (unless those flyers are necrons) because you can not disembark from zooming flyer (necrons can) and if your enemy shots down your zooming flyer, the infantry inside is most likely dead (unless they have a good armour save - termies for example)

 Lothar wrote:
-using flyers as transport is not really a good thing (unless those flyers are necrons) because you can not disembark from zooming flyer (necrons can) and if your enemy shots down your zooming flyer, the infantry inside is most likely dead (unless they have a good armour save - termies for example)

No armor saves against exploding flyers.

However, transport flyers are still awesome. If you have enough vehicle threats on the table a Vendetta is probably going to survive long enough to drop into hover mode and deploy the troops, and as long as you keep the squad reasonably cheap the small risk of losing it is far outweighed by the huge increase in mobility.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lothar wrote:
-using flyers as transport is not really a good thing (unless those flyers are necrons) because you can not disembark from zooming flyer (necrons can) and if your enemy shots down your zooming flyer, the infantry inside is most likely dead (unless they have a good armour save - termies for example)

No armor saves against exploding flyers.

However, transport flyers are still awesome. If you have enough vehicle threats on the table a Vendetta is probably going to survive long enough to drop into hover mode and deploy the troops, and as long as you keep the squad reasonably cheap the small risk of losing it is far outweighed by the huge increase in mobility.

Well, ok then, did not notice they can not take armour saves . Poor guys... I would rather not embark them. If enemy has just one thing against flyers, it would be very risky to transport infantry in them.

Orks in general have several tools at hand to deal with fliers - particularly since snap shots affect them minimally. Lootas epitomize this, with massed str7 fire. A huge threat to armour 10 fliers, and a notable threat to armour 11 fliers. Units of shoota boyz can fire into armour 10 fliers without much argument.

Fancy stuff like Bomb Squigs and Grabba Klaws are also great tools (until FAQ'd, that is).

And, of course, the Dakka Jet on average killing an armour 10 flier without WAAAGH'ing, and killing an armour 11 vehicle when WAAAGH'ing.

For Orks, it's the armour 12 fliers that are the bastards.

For a more inter-factional solution, Quad Guns. Put it on an Aegis defence line for that 4+ at 100pts, or on top of a Bastion for 125pts. I've seriously considered running one with Orks, piloted by grots - particularly since the grots are nigh invisible behind those barriers, it would be hard to kill them

You could save 25pts and instead go for the Lascannon over the Quad Gun, which will very likely hit and penetrate a flier, but it's only a single shot - you'll have to rely on that penetration dice!

Without a sure fire way to take down fliers, Dark Eldar would likely grab this, or invest more points to get ally AA.

@ Lothar

-typo, should be BS3, math is correct though 2.25 hits, 1.5 HP
-fair point with Hvy wpn squads, though its 5 points, my argument still stands
-fair point versus normal tanks and infantry, though it still fires normal BS vs all types of skimmers which makes it pretty badass vs Eldar,Tau and a number of others. Also since everyone is whinging about fliers being so annoying in 5th I would think a dedicated AA platform with 72" range would be welcome.
-Vendetta/Valkyrie can disembark troops by grav-shute at any point along its flight path as per pg 56, Codex:IG

 Lord Commander Phyrus wrote:

-Vendetta/Valkyrie can disembark troops by grav-shute at any point along its flight path as per pg 56, Codex:IG

I wish you were right, but...

Grav-chute rule only lets you disembark passengers when Valkyrie is moving flat-out. This removes the restriction which sais that a unit can not disembark when the transport was moving flat out. However this special rule does not allow you to disembark passengers when making a zoom with your transport. You can move flat out in hover mode and then disembark. But you can not move in zoom mode and then disembark. There is no rule that allows it, sorry. (Necron Night Scythe has that rule)

Turns out Mawlocs can hit flyers. Golden Throne FaQ ruled in their favor which bodes well that GW might follow with their FaQ. They do get their jink save though.

Alright, I am very much liking the discussion that's been brought up. So far I think Aegis w/ quad cannon is going to be my AA of choice, I don't much care for any of those silly metal bawkses. Flyers generally don't stick around long from what I've read, how much damage do they do? Compared to their 5e skimmer selves at least. Can they be ignored in favor of ground targets?