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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 RedDogMinis wrote:
This thread is so tiresome, in order to find the actual previews you have to wade through 5-10+ pages of bickering and moaning about the game state that really belongs in a necromunda general thread.

Yeah there’s thing that could be improved about it but this is the type of toxicity that turns new players away and away from reading Dakka in general. You guys are poison.
\\

Considering Dakka's problems, new people being turned away is a good thing. They don't deserve it.
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

 RedDogMinis wrote:
This thread is so tiresome, in order to find the actual previews you have to wade through 5-10+ pages of bickering and moaning about the game state that really belongs in a necromunda general thread.

Yeah there’s thing that could be improved about it but this is the type of toxicity that turns new players away and away from reading Dakka in general. You guys are poison.


And then they turn up here after they stop being newbs (or worse, actually write some of these games) to bitch about the same things. 'The Circle of 40k'


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in es
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






JimmyWolf87 wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:
JimmyWolf87 wrote:
At this point, the Necromunda rules are almost (and I think it's a conscious choice these days) a sort of quasi-TTRPG style approach where you can dip into whatever elements you fancy based on whatever books you choose to own and there's probably enough new content in each 'House of X' style book to warrant their separate existences. Obviously with varying degrees of consistency or quality and some manner of arbitration (pseudo-GM) is probably a must.

Personally I don't mind it albeit it would help if the core, universal rules were more cohesive (a living document for Trading Post and even Weapon stats should be a no-brainer). I just see it all as a toolbox for players to take which aspects of the setting they like and bake those into their games (though some of those tools are a bit broken out of the box). Needs planning and time investment to be rewarding and it's a departure from the more 'pick up and play'-centric approach that a lot of modern tabletop gaming seems to lean towards. I just don't see it as inherently negative.


As someone who writes and translates RPGs for a living, I take umbrage to this assertion, as the current set of rules are barely even functional.

And from an RPG perspective, they would be a pile of steaming gak.


I never said it was a good RPG I did mean more of a structural design as in 'core book' backed up with additional texts to explore particular factions or concepts, most of which are optional. I'm not saying they've been massively consistent with that and it took a bloody long time for them to get a model of releases that seems fit for purpose (I'm still going to advocate for the House of... books, I think they're ace).

Seriously though, I don't see how they're not functional outside of some isolated examples of unclear mechanics/blatant lack of proofing (which are annoying but workable).


In a great many number of ways, from basic coherence between supplements to proofreading, tbh.

Not really here or there, though ^^
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:

As someone who writes and translates RPGs for a living, I take umbrage to this assertion, as the current set of rules are barely even functional.

And from an RPG perspective, they would be a pile of steaming gak.


See, when HBMC and I say things like this, we're just haters. Bluntly, GW mandates that some rules are smoking garbage for a particular outcome, not that the writers aren't good, or can't make a balanced game. This creates issues, as you can imagine. (looking at YOU space marine strike cruiser lances and VBBs)



Yes, but also they don't pay their writers enough to BE good. Like, gak, I wouldn't put maximum effort into a product for what they pay.
   
Made in es
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:

As someone who writes and translates RPGs for a living, I take umbrage to this assertion, as the current set of rules are barely even functional.

And from an RPG perspective, they would be a pile of steaming gak.


See, when HBMC and I say things like this, we're just haters. Bluntly, GW mandates that some rules are smoking garbage for a particular outcome, not that the writers aren't good, or can't make a balanced game. This creates issues, as you can imagine. (looking at YOU space marine strike cruiser lances and VBBs)


Oh, no, of course, this is not actually an issue of the writers (or, at the very least, not entirely), and rather on the direction and the projects' workflows.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/03 18:28:20


 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

stratigo wrote:

Yes, but also they don't pay their writers enough to BE good. Like, gak, I wouldn't put maximum effort into a product for what they pay.


*shrug* I liked the project, it was fun to work on and I genuinely enjoyed the game I was working on. But due to, let's call them, creative differences, rules that were absolute ass were put into the game, deliberately. We pointed out that some gak was broken before it ever saw the light of day. There were ships in BFG that we handed in, fixed and balanced, and were sent back because someone didn't want them that way. (Space Marine strike cruisers to this day bother me because of that) So, when people complain about broken rules and imbalance, don't assume it's the writers.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader




 Blackie wrote:

Just because rulewise it's better?


Uh...yea. I bought my models to play the game so I build them with whatever weapons are best in the game. If I just wanted display models I wouldn't be buying plastic necromunda kits.

stratigo wrote:



Because GW didn't think people would go through the effort of acquiring the models to make the stupid busted combos. Like they always do.


1 box of Van Saar can make 2 plasma guys and a dual plasma pistol guy. That with 4 lasgun teks is the "cheesy" starting VS gang. The grand effort I had to go through to get my third plasma guy was searching ebay for "van saar plasma" and buying the first item that popped up for $4. Wow, such effort. It's almost like if you make a game, people will find the optimum combos to win the game. That's half the point of games that have a winner and a loser. If GW doesn't want that, maybe they should make games with more balanced weapons and asymmetrical victory conditions. Until then, I'll be rocking my plas/las gang and anyone who has a problem is free to not play me.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/03 19:08:58


 
   
Made in gb
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





So fiercely WAAC would be a fair summation? I don't play but tbh I prefer the sound of the other approach.
   
Made in eg
[MOD]
Keeper of the Adeptus Arbites Flame






Cairo, Egypt

 RedDogMinis wrote:
This thread is so tiresome, in order to find the actual previews you have to wade through 5-10+ pages of bickering and moaning about the game state that really belongs in a necromunda general thread.

Yeah there’s thing that could be improved about it but this is the type of toxicity that turns new players away and away from reading Dakka in general. You guys are poison.


I hear you, but the venom on this thread seems much higher than other games. So maybe there is a legitimate problem in Necromunda that exceeds the issues in other games, even GW's ones.

 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I tend to see it when a topic/thread/game has only a few active threads which are often active with the same people and the conversation isn't focused around models/purchases. In general they tend to end up focusing down on rules and then there's the GW Rules Death Spiral because they always tend to go the same way because GW has the same issues across the board that tend to go unresolved which just generates a continual conversation death spiral.

https://printhunter.org/
Check out the latest 3D print model releases!  
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader




JWBS wrote:
So fiercely WAAC would be a fair summation? I don't play but tbh I prefer the sound of the other approach.


No, I don't consider taking a strong list to be "WAAC". Finding the best options for the credits while considering the terrain and opponents gang lists is just part of the game. Some people voluntarily handicap themselves at that stage or don't care that much to participate in it. I guess it makes them feel better to throw around labels like WAAC any time they go up against someone who does participate in that phase of the game. WAAC would be things like "forgetting" one of your guys has a crucial injury, taking back moves you already made, rerolling cocked dice when you dislike the result but not rerolling cocked dice when you passed your armor save, etc.
   
Made in gb
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





Strongest list. Like I say I'm not a player, WAAC label doesn't make me feel better about myself. Just an outside observation.
   
Made in us
Manhunter





Sticksville, Texas

JWBS wrote:
Strongest list. Like I say I'm not a player, WAAC label doesn't make me feel better about myself. Just an outside observation.


Kind of off to label somebody as WAAC when all it takes is a single bits swap in the box to make the obviously optimal list option.
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader




JWBS wrote:
Strongest list.


Right, because why would a futuristic super soldier choose subpar equipment when he has the best equipment available to him? To give the opposing side a better chance to kill him? I just can't understand it from a gaming or fluff perspective and I don't see this attitude in any other hobby. When racing RC cars, nobody is expected to choose a weaker engine just to give their friends a better chance. You build and bring the best/fastest car you can within the regulations. When playing pickup basketball, if one of your friends played college ball and can dunk, he isn't forced to play with one arm tied behind his back just so the shorter, less athletic guys can guard him. When playing Friday Night Magic, nobody is expected to intentionally draft subpar cards just so the people who had unlucky pulls can win a game. So why is it that in Warhammer I'm expected to take subpar lists when that involves buying/building/painting models? I'm not spending all that money, time and energy on subpar units.
   
Made in gb
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





As I say I'm a layperson. If I were to be a gamer though, and my buddy only ever brings the min-max starter kit, I'd be liable to throw around some epitaphs (in a friendly manner ofc ofc, just banter)
   
Made in us
Manhunter





Sticksville, Texas

JWBS wrote:
As I say I'm a layperson. If I were to be a gamer though, and my buddy only ever brings the min-max starter kit, I'd be liable to throw around some epitaphs (in a friendly manner ofc ofc, just banter)


But why is it the other player's fault that GW did not make the other weapon choices appealing for their credits? And why does that make them WAAC?

I can imagine that many more players would happily use other options if the other weapons performed as well/nearly as well in their roles as plasma does.
   
Made in gb
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





 Toofast wrote:
JWBS wrote:
Strongest list.

When racing RC cars, nobody is expected to choose a weaker engine just to give their friends a better chance. You build and bring the best/fastest car you can within the regulations. When playing pickup basketball, if one of your friends played college ball and can dunk, he isn't forced to play with one arm tied behind his back just so the shorter, less athletic guys can guard him. When playing Friday Night Magic, nobody is expected to intentionally draft subpar cards just so the people who had unlucky pulls can win a game. So why is it that in Warhammer I'm expected to take subpar lists when that involves buying/building/painting models? I'm not spending all that money, time and energy on subpar units.

These things don't seem to be the same as Necromunda. Why does a handicap exist in golf? Idk I don't play golf and I don't play necromunda nor RC racing or Magic, I think the intent is to make things more fun though. Not entirely analogous but somewhat relevant. Like I say though this isn't really my area of interest so I'm gonna bow out now.
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader




 NH Gunsmith wrote:

But why is it the other player's fault that GW did not make the other weapon choices appealing for their credits? And why does that make them WAAC?

I can imagine that many more players would happily use other options if the other weapons performed as well/nearly as well in their roles as plasma does.


1000x this. I like the look of the rad cannon and would love to paint one up but as of right now it would be a waste of a body.
   
Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut





stratigo wrote:

Yes, but also they don't pay their writers enough to BE good. Like, gak, I wouldn't put maximum effort into a product for what they pay.

And they can treat all their new fire-and-forget boxed games like that for all I care. But this isn't any run-of-the-mill sort of game. This is Necromunda!

To change the topic slightly, I can comment on some of the good things about the new Outcast book:
-cleaned up psychic powers, each discipline now has 6 basic powers
-free boost to psykers from the start for having all their powers from a single discipline
-new gang is super flexible, giving great usage for all alliances (and those expensive FW minis)
-new leader can be anything, so you could have a gang lead by a spawn! Or even a caryatid (who in turn can have their own caryatid as a pet). Could probably break some things, but it sounds so funny, I have to appreciate that.
-some of the new weapons from N20+ are now universally available, bringing the trading post up to date (greatsword, cleaver, grav pistol, solid ammo for sawn-off shotgun, some combi ammo for nade launcher, heavy club, polearm, power claw and whip)

Still cannot recommend this book, but it undeniably has some positive changes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Overread wrote:
I tend to see it when a topic/thread/game has only a few active threads which are often active with the same people and the conversation isn't focused around models/purchases. In general they tend to end up focusing down on rules and then there's the GW Rules Death Spiral because they always tend to go the same way because GW has the same issues across the board that tend to go unresolved which just generates a continual conversation death spiral.

I'm happy with several games, believe it or not. Like kill team, blood bowl and underworlds. Expansions seem to work out of the box, modular and compatible with the rest of the game. FAQ/Errata gives an impression someone at GW cares about those games (clarifying and fixing stuff, in general quality updates).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/03 21:39:44


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Does this book finally render Gangs of the Underhive obsolete?

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Does this book finally render Gangs of the Underhive obsolete?

Yes, it really does! And almost Venator Bounty Hunters too (but not 100%). I got that book in the exclusive hardback version

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/03 22:00:52


 
   
Made in gb
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





Is the fluff good?
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Baxx wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Does this book finally render Gangs of the Underhive obsolete?

Yes, it really does! And almost Venator Bounty Hunters too (but not 100%). I got that book in the exclusive hardback version


Thats excellent! That that old book is finally not necessary, not that you went for the premo-edition. Though it was useful all this time, eh?

Any new leaks on those rumored ash waste models?
   
Made in es
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






Heh.

"That old book".
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Get'cha trading post right here.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/03 23:01:20


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader




 Albertorius wrote:
Heh.

"That old book".


Great call by the marketing team to split up the rules into 12 different books and then making them obsolete one by one over the course of a year. You might only need $40 in models to play this game but you're damn well gonna buy $200 worth of books that will all be kindling within 2 years. I don't even feel bad showing up with my printed binder of PDFs any more. Even the guys who were buying all the books a year ago have started going down that road instead lately. My local store had 0 people playing until they allowed printed rules so I think it's hurting their sales as much as it's helping them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/03 23:25:01


 
   
Made in gb
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Scotland, but nowhere near my rulebook

That trading post is a good thing.....


.... But it seems to solely replace GOTU. And has no black market. Two steps forward, one step back
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader




 Graphite wrote:
That trading post is a good thing.....


.... But it seems to solely replace GOTU. And has no black market. Two steps forward, one step back


Bonus points for a couple weapon profiles being wrong/outdated. This book isn't even up to date the minute it hits the store shelf.
   
Made in es
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






 Toofast wrote:
 Graphite wrote:
That trading post is a good thing.....


.... But it seems to solely replace GOTU. And has no black market. Two steps forward, one step back


Bonus points for a couple weapon profiles being wrong/outdated. This book isn't even up to date the minute it hits the store shelf.


Would it really be a Newcromunda book if it was?
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Which ones are outdated?

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
 
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