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Made in us
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stratigo wrote:


One of the GM's most important jobs is ensuring everyone going INTO the campaign is on the same page of starting power levels



Am I crazy or is that what credits are for? How is it up the GM to determine that one 50 credit gun is worth 50 credits and another 50 credit gun should actually count as 75? That's also the point of limitations like having as many gangers as you have leader/champs. Maybe GW should make more than one gun per gang actually worth using. If rad guns weren't inferior to plasma in every single way possible, I would paint one up and use it. Until then, I'm gonna start with 2-3 plasma, dual plasma pistol, and grab ambots/house brute as soon as I have the credits. Same with the hangers-on. If someone besides ammo jack or rogue doc did something useful for me, I would hire them.
   
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Been Around the Block





I'm pretty sure, lore wise, the enforcers are suppose to balance things out - with extreme prejudice. Beyond that, I think the hope is that the rise will help balance things out, but they can also favor one side. Such fickle things, the dice gods.

GW has never been good at making balanced games have they? I'm I'm still super excited to see the new stuff they come up with for Necromunda. I've got my fingers crossed they start a second round of House of style books that feature more themed gangs that would exist in the Outcast setting.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Toofast wrote:
stratigo wrote:


One of the GM's most important jobs is ensuring everyone going INTO the campaign is on the same page of starting power levels



Am I crazy or is that what credits are for? How is it up the GM to determine that one 50 credit gun is worth 50 credits and another 50 credit gun should actually count as 75? That's also the point of limitations like having as many gangers as you have leader/champs. Maybe GW should make more than one gun per gang actually worth using. If rad guns weren't inferior to plasma in every single way possible, I would paint one up and use it. Until then, I'm gonna start with 2-3 plasma, dual plasma pistol, and grab ambots/house brute as soon as I have the credits. Same with the hangers-on. If someone besides ammo jack or rogue doc did something useful for me, I would hire them.



Because GW didn't think people would go through the effort of acquiring the models to make the stupid busted combos. Like they always do.
   
Made in it
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Italy

 Toofast wrote:
stratigo wrote:


One of the GM's most important jobs is ensuring everyone going INTO the campaign is on the same page of starting power levels



Am I crazy or is that what credits are for? How is it up the GM to determine that one 50 credit gun is worth 50 credits and another 50 credit gun should actually count as 75? That's also the point of limitations like having as many gangers as you have leader/champs. Maybe GW should make more than one gun per gang actually worth using. If rad guns weren't inferior to plasma in every single way possible, I would paint one up and use it. Until then, I'm gonna start with 2-3 plasma, dual plasma pistol, and grab ambots/house brute as soon as I have the credits. Same with the hangers-on. If someone besides ammo jack or rogue doc did something useful for me, I would hire them.


My 20 van saar gangers are all equipped with different weapons, except 4 lasguns dudes . Rule of cool reigns, why do I want to paint a 2nd plasma gun dude when I can use a rad gun, a flamer, a grav gun, a melta gun, 3 heavy weapons and multiple combinations with pistols? Just because rulewise it's better?

 
   
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 Blackie wrote:


My 20 van saar gangers are all equipped with different weapons, except 4 lasguns dudes . Rule of cool reigns, why do I want to paint a 2nd plasma gun dude when I can use a rad gun, a flamer, a grav gun, a melta gun, 3 heavy weapons and multiple combinations with pistols? Just because rulewise it's better?


I'm definitely in the rule of cool camp, but that means different things to different people. having a theme for your gang where they use a lot of the same weapon type is also pretty cool to me, though that doesn't mean it has to be the best one in the game.
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I tend to do things WYSIWYG.

I don't take weapons that the models don't have*, even if it would be more advantageous to do so.

So yes, taking nothing but Lasguns would be "more efficient", but I have autogunner and shotgun minis, so I'll use that.


*Unless it's something that could be easily hidden, like simple close combat weapon or a pistol.

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Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry

I factor in the TFG level of fielding multiple plasmas. If I ever get another game in at any point, I expect my opponents to regard Van Saar's shooting as broken, and using too many plasma weapons as abusing that.
So, I paint up one of each weapon, and inflict the many many weapon trait rules upon myself.
Though, for random-ganger missions, having two plasma wielders means you're more likely to get at least one in the mission.

But, that's for a different thread.

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Fair enough, not everyone shares an overly competitive mentality, especially on narrative and/or campaign based games.

I started Necromunda mostly for the models, which IMHO are the current best GW models, then I liked the rules, convinced a group of friends to try it as an alternative to our more regular games and sometimes we run a campaign. It's was a completely new experience for us as we never play campaign based games. That's it.

 
   
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Necro also brings the risk that the Dice Gods will see your best equipped models snuff it in short order.

Way way back when, my friend ran an Eldar Ranger Gang, using the Outlander rulebook. That had a credit cost for various Xenos, and we figured why not.

Poor dude could not catch a break. Always having members captured and tripped of their gear. His Leader’s power fist (a later addition of course) kind of did the rounds, as whoever carried it near always wound up captured.

Necromunda has always been wonky, like, always. But me and mine have seen patching it up as part of the enjoyment. Yes it would be nice not to have to, but it’s still something which doesn’t bother me.

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The duality of fluff vs competitive is an open wound for Necromunda. These aren't scientific measurements, nobody play the game equally fluffy (rule of cool). For some, 1 plasma is within rule of cool, for others 2 and so on.
TGG wrote:

GW has never been good at making balanced games have they? I'm I'm still super excited to see the new stuff they come up with for Necromunda. I've got my fingers crossed they start a second round of House of style books that feature more themed gangs that would exist in the Outcast setting.

Unlike all other games, Necromunda is quite unique in the way it is unbalanced. As discussed in detail here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/802228.page And dice statistics will only make it worse.

You want another round of house gang books? How many books people want exactly? How could anyone like old Necromunda with only 3 books, or current Blood Bowl with only 2 books


When people say that it's always been wonky, that's not an honest way of describing it. It is a way to hide the fundamental flaw of Necromunda campaigns, which no other related games have.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/12/03 09:22:40


 
   
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Baxx wrote:
current Blood Bowl with only 2 books
You don't count the Spike! Journal then?
   
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Ahh spikes! They used to be collected 3-4 issues in a single book, but not sure if that will happen again in this edition. A bonus with the spike (and all other extra/experimental/optional stuff) is that the rules are solid and works, and builds on a solid campaign system. Quite good in my opinion, even if bloated

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/03 09:20:35


 
   
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Baxx wrote:
Ahh spikes! They used to be collected 3-4 issues in a single book, but not sure if that will happen again in this edition. A bonus with the spike (and all other extra/experimental/optional stuff) is that the rules are solid and works, and builds on a solid campaign system. Quite good in my opinion, even if bloated



So all rulesets on GW main games are bloated?


   
Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut





Necromunda is heavily bloated, that's hardly a controversial statement. And so is Blood Bowl btw, not sure about others. This is an interesting discussion more suited to be continued elsewhere.
   
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Italy

Baxx wrote:
Necromunda is heavily bloated, that's hardly a controversial statement. And so is Blood Bowl btw, not sure about others. This is an interesting discussion more suited to be continued elsewhere.


Agree. Another round of Book of X would be dreadful. Even with a new game's edition there's no need to update the gang books.

 
   
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Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry

If the House Of books were consolidated a bit, and all errors and updates merged in, that might be handy. Having to buy lots of House-Ofs to get the brutes or pets is annoying.

4000 pts - 4000 pts - Harlies: 1000 pts - 1000 ptsDS:70+S+G++MB+IPw40k86/f+D++A++/cWD64R+T(T)DM+
IG/AM force nearly-finished pieces: http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-38888-41159_Armies%20-%20Imperial%20Guard.html
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw (probably)
Clubs around Coventry, UK 
   
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 Skinnereal wrote:
If the House Of books were consolidated a bit, and all errors and updates merged in, that might be handy. Having to buy lots of House-Ofs to get the brutes or pets is annoying.


That would be the ideal thing, I would buy that actually... But in GW therms that is going from several x £30 to something like 1x £50...

   
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You Sunk My Battleship!





IL

This thread is so tiresome, in order to find the actual previews you have to wade through 5-10+ pages of bickering and moaning about the game state that really belongs in a necromunda general thread.

Yeah there’s thing that could be improved about it but this is the type of toxicity that turns new players away and away from reading Dakka in general. You guys are poison.

   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Calling criticism "toxicity" isn't helpful.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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Fixture of Dakka







 Blackie wrote:
Baxx wrote:
Necromunda is heavily bloated, that's hardly a controversial statement. And so is Blood Bowl btw, not sure about others. This is an interesting discussion more suited to be continued elsewhere.


Agree. Another round of Book of X would be dreadful. Even with a new game's edition there's no need to update the gang books.

It's worth noting that the post that kicked off this latest Baxx rant said "House of style books" as a way of introducing new gangs - such as Outlanders that are currently missing - to the game.

The suggestion was not for a new wave of books for Escher, Goliath, etc.

2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
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IL

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Calling criticism "toxicity" isn't helpful.


Criticism has a place and it would be much more suited in a Necromunda general thread, or make Community Efforts To Improve Necromunda etc, not biog down the NEWS section with personal conjecture.

When people have to dredge through pages and pages of complaints and disagreements between posters it’s disheartening. For years Dakka was a place I loved coming to for new info and now it’s one of the last places I visit due to the constant negativity of fan base.

Toxicity is born out of love for the game because people post about it and are passionate about it being better. Very valid points and critiques may be raised but when those start blotting out anything remotely positive it’s becomes toxic and is going to drive people away.

Anytime something on topic with actual news gets posted here it seems like there’s a pile dive effort to bury it as quickly as possible under complaints of pricing game balance and other woes.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/12/03 11:43:02


   
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 Dysartes wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Baxx wrote:
Necromunda is heavily bloated, that's hardly a controversial statement. And so is Blood Bowl btw, not sure about others. This is an interesting discussion more suited to be continued elsewhere.


Agree. Another round of Book of X would be dreadful. Even with a new game's edition there's no need to update the gang books.

It's worth noting that the post that kicked off this latest Baxx rant said "House of style books" as a way of introducing new gangs - such as Outlanders that are currently missing - to the game.

The suggestion was not for a new wave of books for Escher, Goliath, etc.

Yeah, I would love a “House of Dust” book with background and a gang list for Ash Waste Nomads, and maybe a set of Ash Waste themed pets and brutes (the totally-not-graboid and can’t-believe-it’s-not-sandworm of course) as well as some wasteland tech that no one in the hives would ever think about, like hats. But that could also be a “Book of Dust” with rules for an ash waste campaign too.

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 RedDogMinis wrote:
This thread is so tiresome, in order to find the actual previews you have to wade through 5-10+ pages of bickering and moaning about the game state that really belongs in a necromunda general thread.

Yeah there’s thing that could be improved about it but this is the type of toxicity that turns new players away and away from reading Dakka in general. You guys are poison.

"Toxicity". Right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 RedDogMinis wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Calling criticism "toxicity" isn't helpful.


Criticism has a place and it would be much more suited in a Necromunda general thread, or make Community Efforts To Improve Necromunda etc, not big down the NEWS section with personal conjecture.

When people have to dredge through pages and pages of complaints and disagreements between posters it’s disheartening. For years Dakka was a place I loved coming to for new info and now it’s one of the last places I visit due to the constant negativity of fan base.

Toxicity is born out of love for the game because people post about it and are passionate about it being better. Very valid points and critiques may be raised but when those start blotting out anything remotely positive it’s becomes toxic and is going to drive people away.

Anytime something on topic with actual news gets posted here it seems like there’s a pile dive effort to bury it as quickly as possible under complaints of pricing game balance and other woes.


News thread are not (and never have been) threads where you just post news. There's announcements for that. This is a discussion thread in a discussion forum, and opinions will be different than yours. Better get used to it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/03 11:44:00


 
   
Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Dysartes wrote:

It's worth noting that the post that kicked off this latest Baxx rant said "House of style books" as a way of introducing new gangs - such as Outlanders that are currently missing - to the game.

The suggestion was not for a new wave of books for Escher, Goliath, etc.

Sorry about that TGG, it was the "start a second round of House of style books" that threw me off.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





At this point, the Necromunda rules are almost (and I think it's a conscious choice these days) a sort of quasi-TTRPG style approach where you can dip into whatever elements you fancy based on whatever books you choose to own and there's probably enough new content in each 'House of X' style book to warrant their separate existences. Obviously with varying degrees of consistency or quality and some manner of arbitration (pseudo-GM) is probably a must.

Personally I don't mind it albeit it would help if the core, universal rules were more cohesive (a living document for Trading Post and even Weapon stats should be a no-brainer). I just see it all as a toolbox for players to take which aspects of the setting they like and bake those into their games (though some of those tools are a bit broken out of the box). Needs planning and time investment to be rewarding and it's a departure from the more 'pick up and play'-centric approach that a lot of modern tabletop gaming seems to lean towards. I just don't see it as inherently negative.
   
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Trading Post PDF is out!
Necromunda wrote:Does your gang need some new gear?

Download the full Necromunda Trading Post here: https://bit.ly/31tMcah


EDIT: Not had a good look at it yet, but is apparently missing content from Books of Peril, Judgment, & Ruin.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/03 15:54:02


 
   
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JimmyWolf87 wrote:
At this point, the Necromunda rules are almost (and I think it's a conscious choice these days) a sort of quasi-TTRPG style approach where you can dip into whatever elements you fancy based on whatever books you choose to own and there's probably enough new content in each 'House of X' style book to warrant their separate existences. Obviously with varying degrees of consistency or quality and some manner of arbitration (pseudo-GM) is probably a must.

Personally I don't mind it albeit it would help if the core, universal rules were more cohesive (a living document for Trading Post and even Weapon stats should be a no-brainer). I just see it all as a toolbox for players to take which aspects of the setting they like and bake those into their games (though some of those tools are a bit broken out of the box). Needs planning and time investment to be rewarding and it's a departure from the more 'pick up and play'-centric approach that a lot of modern tabletop gaming seems to lean towards. I just don't see it as inherently negative.


As someone who writes and translates RPGs for a living, I take umbrage to this assertion, as the current set of rules are barely even functional.

And from an RPG perspective, they would be a pile of steaming gak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
beast_gts wrote:
Trading Post PDF is out!
Necromunda wrote:Does your gang need some new gear?

Download the full Necromunda Trading Post here: https://bit.ly/31tMcah


EDIT: Not had a good look at it yet, but is apparently missing content from Books of Peril, Judgment, & Ruin.


Well, of course it does.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/03 15:58:59


 
   
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 Albertorius wrote:
JimmyWolf87 wrote:
At this point, the Necromunda rules are almost (and I think it's a conscious choice these days) a sort of quasi-TTRPG style approach where you can dip into whatever elements you fancy based on whatever books you choose to own and there's probably enough new content in each 'House of X' style book to warrant their separate existences. Obviously with varying degrees of consistency or quality and some manner of arbitration (pseudo-GM) is probably a must.

Personally I don't mind it albeit it would help if the core, universal rules were more cohesive (a living document for Trading Post and even Weapon stats should be a no-brainer). I just see it all as a toolbox for players to take which aspects of the setting they like and bake those into their games (though some of those tools are a bit broken out of the box). Needs planning and time investment to be rewarding and it's a departure from the more 'pick up and play'-centric approach that a lot of modern tabletop gaming seems to lean towards. I just don't see it as inherently negative.


As someone who writes and translates RPGs for a living, I take umbrage to this assertion, as the current set of rules are barely even functional.

And from an RPG perspective, they would be a pile of steaming gak.


I never said it was a good RPG I did mean more of a structural design as in 'core book' backed up with additional texts to explore particular factions or concepts, most of which are optional. I'm not saying they've been massively consistent with that and it took a bloody long time for them to get a model of releases that seems fit for purpose (I'm still going to advocate for the House of... books, I think they're ace).

Seriously though, I don't see how they're not functional outside of some isolated examples of unclear mechanics/blatant lack of proofing (which are annoying but workable).
   
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 Albertorius wrote:

As someone who writes and translates RPGs for a living, I take umbrage to this assertion, as the current set of rules are barely even functional.

And from an RPG perspective, they would be a pile of steaming gak.


See, when HBMC and I say things like this, we're just haters. Bluntly, GW mandates that some rules are smoking garbage for a particular outcome, not that the writers aren't good, or can't make a balanced game. This creates issues, as you can imagine. (looking at YOU space marine strike cruiser lances and VBBs)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/03 17:31:40



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