Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Are they worth it? for vanilla SM's, I only have a few heavy weapon models at the moment but should be able to scrape together 4 plasma cannons would this be a ok set up to use, got a 750pts tourny at local gaming club this weekend and I think plasma cannon pie plates would be able to lay quite a lot of hurt on troops MC's tanks etc

They can be worth it, but are a bit overpriced for what you get. If you field 5 man squads with 4 heavy weapons, your points per model is VERY high for just marines with a 3+ save. Once you start taking fire, the squad's effectiveness plummets fast. And they are going to be a priority for your opponent. If you go with a full 10 man squad, they take fire better, but the absolute value of the unit goes up. You pay a premium price for weapon options here as well.

When you start looking at other firepower options, even just in the HS slots, they also look a little lackluster. Part of that is a reflection on how nice our tanks are. Predators are underpriced IMHO. I'd much rather have an auto/las pred then a 5 man dev squad. And full 10 man squads are in land raider range. Outside of the HS slots there are more options. For low cost firepower, 5 man sternguard can pack 2 heavy weapons for a low cost. and your extra bolter marines have a lot more options. You can field a 2 speeder squadron one with a HB on point (to take shots first) and a typhoon/HB behind it for 130 points. A 2xHB, 2xML dev squad costs more then that and is not nearly as mobile.

Now, problems aside, there are some perks to the devastators. If some Tau decides to shoot a railgun at you, one marine is going to die, leaving the rest of the squad alive to retaliate. Tanks are probably going to be a terrain piece at that point. You have boots on the ground, so are a denial unit. Probably not a big deal, but it might come up. The sarge can give someone BS 5 with his signum. Some ticks you can do with that.

I field Devs on occasion. They've never "WOWed" me, but they generally get the job done. I always field 10 man squads. My two favorite load outs for them is 2xML 2xPC or 2xML 2xHB, depending on points. I view them as primarily an anti-infantry squad. If I want to pop a tank, generally 4 heavy weapons is overkill. And I never field them in small games. They are a little sub-par for their points. In a large game, other units can help pick up the slack.

never been too impressed with then in vanilla SM, BA and SW Devs are pretty sexy though

Think i'll go for a trail run on wednesday with them. I played againt tau on sunday and all my tanks bit the dust by turn 2, damn broadsides!

But there is something to be said for 4 plasma cannons putting the unholy fear of god into any marine army trying to deep strike termies.

Then again I like plasma in my space marine, even if you don't kill any of them I sure will.....I'm starting to think i'm running the wrong army when I cheer whenever the space marines die, no matter who owns them.

Well you should be runing long fangs , because of the Rune Priest being so good in marine armies anyway .normal devastators are kind of a meh .

You cant run long fangs with vanilla SM's Makumba

I think the plasma will create quite a nice denial area as well

They can be worth it, but are a bit overpriced for what you get. If you field 5 man squads with 4 heavy weapons, your points per model is VERY high for just marines with a 3+ save. Once you start taking fire, the squad's effectiveness plummets fast. And they are going to be a priority for your opponent. If you go with a full 10 man squad, they take fire better, but the absolute value of the unit goes up. You pay a premium price for weapon options here as well.
.

I feel like this hits it right on the head. On paper, devs seem fairly plausible but this all goes out the window when they start taking fire. I find that a pred anni with all las tends to be a better bet for fire support. Not to mention a few perks that are invaluable (Immune to small arms fire and the twin linked rule) This makes it far more survivable since few armies have a reliable chance to penetrate its 13 FA. Also, on that note, its only susceptible to heavy weapons fire. (Las cannons and above) because anything less than strength 9 is usually better places somewhere else. Lastly, especially against flyers and vehicles with 3+ hull points, its far better to be able to re roll with twin linked to guarantee that extra hull point knocked off or for another chance at that flyer. I just find vanilla devs too expensive to leave to chance. Hope this helped some.

Thanks defeater, I do have a couple of pred models I can use, so i'll have a think on using that instead, would save me a few points as well

I usually run some Auto/Las preds that perform admirably. I also think that the Thunderfire cannon greatly benefited from the new arty rules. for 100 points you get three ammo types, all 60", the standard round being S6, Ap5. All ammo types are Heavy4 blasts, use BS 4. The model itself is T7, 2W, 3+ sv and can be placed in cover. You also get a free Techmarine with servoharness (though he is tied to the cannon unless the gun gets destroyed.

I used two (200 points) in a game against Orks Monday night. I put them on the second floor of bolstered ruins for a 4+ cover save. They tore through the Orks Trukks (glanced one to death in a single salvo). Took a weapon off of a looted wagon, and killed 6+ Ork in a salvo more than once. Of course, there is more than one way to skin a cat with SM and YMMV no matter which way you go.

yep I am 100% going for the thunderfire cannon as I got raped by one on sunday, just the pure amount of saves it made me roll was mad!. But I dont think it will be that useful in 750pts game, the same with the pred really in 750pts thats the only tank i would be taking and it will attract all the AT weapons, i cant see it lasting long

Preds have their issues too. They are at risk on flanks so need to be deployed centrally. They can die to a sinle penetration. Vanilla preds also can fire one weapon if they move.

Dreds have less frontal armour but do better in assault and they can reposition.

But devestators are the most flexible. You can put them in cover, give them extra bodies so they are surviveable, join a HQ in the unit to lend support. You can also bring the most firepower in the game, not even a land raider has 4 multimeltas, a combimelta and some bolters. Or the plasmacannons as mentioned above.

I took 4 plasmacannons to a feb tournament and to be honest they were more a psychological weapon than a deathstar unit. I would advocate 4 ML, HB or MM.

Interesting idea is drop pod full dev unit with 4 MM, master of the forge and librarian into cover in the middle of the board. Put a fist and combiflamer on the SGT. Libby has avenger and null zone. The unit can deal with most things, landraider takes the melta as does terminators, oblits, MCs. Hordes you have the TL flamer from MoTF, avenger and combiflamer. Assault you have force weapon, power fist and the MoTF servo harness.

No reason with devs they have to sit in backfield.

As mentioned before, the Devs cannot die to a single Missile or Lascannon shot from across the board. The Preds can.

Personally I like both, but I play BA where my weapons are cheaper, and my Preds are faster.

 Loricatus Aurora wrote:
Preds have their issues too. They are at risk on flanks so need to be deployed centrally. They can die to a sinle penetration. Vanilla preds also can fire one weapon if they move.

Dreds have less frontal armour but do better in assault and they can reposition.

But devestators are the most flexible. You can put them in cover, give them extra bodies so they are surviveable, join a HQ in the unit to lend support. You can also bring the most firepower in the game, not even a land raider has 4 multimeltas, a combimelta and some bolters. Or the plasmacannons as mentioned above.

I took 4 plasmacannons to a feb tournament and to be honest they were more a psychological weapon than a deathstar unit. I would advocate 4 ML, HB or MM.

Interesting idea is drop pod full dev unit with 4 MM, master of the forge and librarian into cover in the middle of the board. Put a fist and combiflamer on the SGT. Libby has avenger and null zone. The unit can deal with most things, landraider takes the melta as does terminators, oblits, MCs. Hordes you have the TL flamer from MoTF, avenger and combiflamer. Assault you have force weapon, power fist and the MoTF servo harness.

No reason with devs they have to sit in backfield.

I disagree with you entirely. Here is why:

A) Preds do NOT need to be deployed centrally at all. With 48" then can plug an entire avenue of approach just as a deterrent, There is absolutely no need to progress a pred into a position on the board where your sides can be exposed. This tank has one role, to be deployed in the best possible fire lane and snipe vehicles and units that can bring it ,and other valuable units, down. After that, it goes unchecked for the rest of the game. (If played correct)

B)Dreds are just not as good in 6th. Lets face it, 3 12 A hull points for a walker that WILL find itself in a central location on the table. Id rather have the Pred even just based on Survivability.

C)"I took 4 plasmacannons to a feb tournament and to be honest they were more a psychological weapon than a deathstar unit. I would advocate 4 ML, HB or MM." <-- This makes absolutely no sense. The cardinal rule for devastators is to have each squad specific to one role otherwise you will be A) Wasting a heavy weapon that either cant pen vehicle armour or doesnt have enough shots to stop numbers. B) your weapons will have conflicting ranges which can also leave you in precarious situations. I will never field Heavy bolters or multimeltas with ML's. Keep your devs specific to one mission. Jack of all trades master of none.

D)"But devestators are the most flexible. You can put them in cover, give them extra bodies so they are surviveable, join a HQ in the unit to lend support. You can also bring the most firepower in the game, not even a land raider has 4 multimeltas, a combimelta and some bolters. Or the plasmacannons as mentioned above." <-- this also is not a valid point. While some of this may be true, lets take a closer look. For devs (as you are "Advocating" use) In order for them to be in effective cover, they would have to move. Making them in effective to their task for a turn or two. (Assuming moving them like this doesnt put them out of position and taking heavy casualties. Devs are ALWAYS a priority for the enemy.) A pred is useful from turn one. The suggestion you make here also suggests adding bodies, adding an HQ , and adding weapons. Devs are already one of the most costly choices in the HS area of your FOC. Adding anything but the essentials will cause this unit to quickly become a squishy point sink. I dont see any of this as viable competitively in the Vanilla book.

Preds might die to a lucky las shot. Devs might die to a lucky Battle Cannon shot. Its the nature of the game. As a Marine (In my experience) I find my rule of thumb to be "Cheap is good. Cheap and effective is ideal." A basic pred is inexpensive by marine standards and packs a huge punch worth every point. I just dont find C:SM Devs as viable.

Would it be worth doing 3 MLs and 1 plasma cannon?

idea is that they could handle both infantry and the ocasional tank.

Defeater,

There are deep strikers, out flankers, and fast moving units that can easily get into your side armor.

You completely misread Point C. He is not saying take one of each. He is saying take 4 ML, or 4 PC, or 4 MM, or 4 HB. So that one unit will have a role.

On point D, you assume that the only effective cover is out of your deployment zone. That is a big assumption.

I had a ton of fun with 4 Heavy Bolters in a Dev squad in my last game. With cover dropping to 5+ in most cases, I see me bringing them against Imperial Guard and Tyranids a lot more often.

MarkyMark wrote:
Are they worth it? for vanilla SM's, I only have a few heavy weapon models at the moment but should be able to scrape together 4 plasma cannons would this be a ok set up to use, got a 750pts tourny at local gaming club this weekend and I think plasma cannon pie plates would be able to lay quite a lot of hurt on troops MC's tanks etc

Plasma Cannons don't drop pie plates mate.

My BA devs can work wonders, I do like them.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Would it be worth doing 3 MLs and 1 plasma cannon?

idea is that they could handle both infantry and the ocasional tank.

You could. I like 2xML 2xPC if I have the points, 3x1 is just a little cheeper.

Most of the time I see 3x1 builds it's MLs and a single LC. You use the sarge's signum to give the lascannon BS5. You get more bang for your buck. I don't think it's worth the 1" of scatter on a blast weapon.

Speaking of the signum, something to try would just use a no-gear dev squad to man guns on fortifications. Works better on the non twin linked mounts, as TL BS4 tends to hit most of the time anyway. A 5 man dev costs the same as 5 tacs. You aren't a scoring unit, but do get the signum.

 Loricatus Aurora wrote:


Interesting idea is drop pod full dev unit with 4 MM, master of the forge and librarian into cover in the middle of the board. Put a fist and combiflamer on the SGT. Libby has avenger and null zone. The unit can deal with most things, landraider takes the melta as does terminators, oblits, MCs. Hordes you have the TL flamer from MoTF, avenger and combiflamer. Assault you have force weapon, power fist and the MoTF servo harness.

That is a very expensive unit in the middle of the board with 2 HQs that cannot handle assault. So sure you have 3 characters, but any decent assault unit is going to rip them up before they get to do any real damage.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Are they worth it? for vanilla SM's, I only have a few heavy weapon models at the moment but should be able to scrape together 4 plasma cannons would this be a ok set up to use, got a 750pts tourny at local gaming club this weekend and I think plasma cannon pie plates would be able to lay quite a lot of hurt on troops MC's tanks etc

Plasma Cannons don't drop pie plates mate.

Its a blast weapon so uses the small template? unless pie plates means the bigger template? or am I being totally newb here?

MarkyMark wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Are they worth it? for vanilla SM's, I only have a few heavy weapon models at the moment but should be able to scrape together 4 plasma cannons would this be a ok set up to use, got a 750pts tourny at local gaming club this weekend and I think plasma cannon pie plates would be able to lay quite a lot of hurt on troops MC's tanks etc

Plasma Cannons don't drop pie plates mate.

Its a blast weapon so uses the small template? unless pie plates means the bigger template? or am I being totally newb here?

Yup. Pie plates are the large blasts.

Ok my bad, mini pie plates!

The one thing devs are good for is getting a BS5 on one of them. They way to take advantage of this is to 10-man squad it with 3 missile launchers and 1 Lascannon.
Then you combat squad the sergeant with the lascannon and leave the 3 ML in the other. This gives you a lascannon with BS5 and still have 3 missile launchers to either to hoard control or MC/vehicle work. MM work with a Vulkan list and can be cheap yet effective. The problem I have is 31 points for a guy with a MM that only has 1 wound versus an attack bike with MM for 50 that can move and fire.

Heavy bolters- my old favorite have really taken a hit when compared to sternguard. All the special ammo that a sternguard can get is superior to 3 S5 shots. So unless you are going to take a divination psyker and put him to work giving your HBs - at worst rerollable hits. You can move them and snapfire all four of them for an average of 2 hits.... I think
10 sternguard are going to average 7 hits and can be wounding on a 2+ or pop the 30" range or pop the AP 3 shot...

Bottomline, devs are good but there are a lot of other options for the cost the field them. The only thing they give you is a lot of ablative wounds versus a predator that can get penetrated and blow up fast.


Anti-tank - Predator 130 Stormtalon 150 Devastator w 3 ML and 1 Lascannon 250
Anti-personnel - Sternguard 250, Thunderfire Cannon 100.

So as a fair choice: A stormtalon and thunderfire or the Dev squad... It is your choice but I find that devs are generally things I use when I am cash tight.

I personally never leave home without them.

I usually always have a squad armed with missile launchers, these guys are effectively very cheap in points, having a great potential of damage output against low/med Armour vehicles and the ability to frag blast enemies gives them a dual role, as well as being great back field objective sitters.

The signum also gives them an increased chance of doing some damage and if you add this to an occasional bump of one or two devastators to have a lascannon if you have the spare points, will quite improve anti-tank.

I can understand why people don't like them but I personally can't get enough of them.

Rysaer

I dont own any sternguard yet, those or assault marines are the only thing I am lacking at the moment, oh and the thunderfire.

I do have a stormtalon though but the last few games it hasnt lasted long and I can see quite a few aegis defence lines being used so not sure on that.

I did plan on running a couple of attack bikes, one with HB and one with MM but the order didnt come through so it depends if i get the chance to go to GW tomorrow which i doubt i could make it then,

I actually like devastators.

As a guard player stuck with HWSs, I'd GLADLY pay to upgrade them to be as durable as marines. Plus, come on, it's 40k. Stuff gets removed from the board. Devastators have the ability to put out enough punch before they exit the field.

As for their arming, I actually like them most with multimeltas if for no other reason that they are the only unit in the entire game that has the ability to have a setup like this. They also create a pretty big, angry "NO!" zone for enemy vehicles. I'd even count fliers in this, as with 4 shots, rolling a 6 isn't THAT unlikely, and S8 Ap1, probably in melta (as you can move closer without sacrificing killing power) is more than enough to handle most of them.

Otherwise, I actually like the idea of heavy bolter devestators. They're a lower profile than, say, plasma cannons, so they're less likely to draw fire, and they're also a fair bit cheaper. Meanwhile, 8 S5 Ap4 hits are pretty easy to underestimate. They're not the destroyer of worlds, perhaps, but they are a nice support unit.

And if you're playing codex marines, ignore absolutely every comment about longfangs or fast predators. You don't have access to those, so basing any comparison whatsoever on them is meaningless.

 Ailaros wrote:
And if you're playing codex marines, ignore absolutely every comment about longfangs or fast predators. You don't have access to those, so basing any comparison whatsoever on them is meaningless.

Not just that, but it will make you desperately hope for the next codex to have some special Heavy Support option, like Long fangs or the movement boosted BA Preds are. Sadly, I consider this as likely as me starting an airship trade empire on Jupiter.

Thanks jbunny. Yes im saying 4 of one thing.

Exergy, you are right, the point was you can use devestators in a very different way than giving them long ranged weapons, putting them in a tower and thats it. They are a non scoring tactical squad with signum that can take lots of good gear, so if you think of them tat way then you can open up lots of new potential roles for them. The devestator box does come with a powerfist, even though i know most dakkaites jaws would hit the table if you geared your dev sgt with a fist. Is my advocated unit perfect, no, its an idea that needs developing, but the thread is about uses of devestators and so far everyone has been fixated on devestators in tower like sniper scouts. Yes that works, but they can be more dynamic if you want to explore that potential in list building.

Finally preds. I love preds, dont get me wrong. I took an autolas pred to a tournament and it did a reasonable job. In 2 of 5 games it died to assault, once outflanking scouts, once a eldar shining spear in turn 2 fleeted through cover from a serpent. This is a critical vulnerability. Yes no assault from flanks now but a unit w grenades or bombs turn up next to your predator, its dead. Even if it drives away its neutralised that turn. For that reason i say preds in middle of deployment zone so then they can stay stationary, and you have to accept your pushing back on frontal armour. Not all games, but you cannot rely on being able to place pred out wide till you see opponents list, thus for planning have to assume central location.