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I was at a tournament yesterday. One of the teams there took a Fortress of Redemption. They also had a Manticore and a Deathstrike.

So right now, you're thinking "Yeah, so?"

They put the Fortress in the corner so as to divide the corner from the rest of the board, creating a 'pocket', and then deployed the Manticore and the Deathstrike in that corner. This completely blocked LOS, created an area too small to safely deep strike into, and make it impossible for an assault army to reach them. I don't even know how you would counter this, shy of a flier peeking over the fortress, outflankers, or some sort of indirect barrage.

Of course, this still means you have to buy a Fortress of Redemption, so I'm not sure how overall useful it is.

Thoughts?

Sounds very expensive pointswise. The counter to that would be to just ignore the two tanks and obliterate the rest of the army, especially since itll be pretty weak when a good chunk of change is spent on a gigantic building.

Arent you not allowed to stick a fortification that close to a board edge? I thought they had to be a certain distance away from the table edge.

Fortifications can be set up anywhere on the board, as long as they are completely in the owning players table half and arent within 3in of another fortification.

The idea sounds cool, but I agree - 540 points is way, way too steep a price for what basically amounts to a couple of missile shots. Unless you're talking about a huge points value, I don't know if the rest of your list could recover from the cost.

Now, if you could set it up in such a way where you could hide an objective behind there, then I'd instantly be all for it. I don't know if you're going to be able to seal off two vehicles completely out of LOS AND be able to fit an objective back in there with a unit that's not embarked in the building itself.

Then, as you mention, there are counters. First game you play against a flier, you'll be made to feel like a fool. Plus, it's not like you can't destroy the buildings themselves.

I think if you're a guard player who wants to play with a fortress of redemption, then this is probably the way to do it, but I don't know if it's worth going out and buying a fortress just for this strategy.

Well, it does seem like a lot of points, but don't forget that the fortress isn't exactly worthless on its own. People are certainly willing to pay for aegis lines, and the fortress effectively acts as a set of aegis lines covering an even larger area.

 Ailaros wrote:
Plus, it's not like you can't destroy the buildings themselves.

Well, sometimes. Don't forget that you can't shoot empty buildings so if they deploy on top of it and put the access point facing away from the rest of the table there's no way to destroy the building or get inside it.

(Though the more useful version of this trick is using a bastion to hide a single model in Necron flyerspam.)

I know the perfect counter: Grey Knights, three Techmarines and two Brother-Captains, five Orbital Bombardments a turn. Counter THAT, hidden-from-LOS-long-ranged-artillery-tanks!.

On a more serious note, counter with flyers, skimmers, or drive a Purgator squad right up to the fortress and spam them with psycannon shots fired through the walls.

Or just ignore them.

Wolf scouts with meltaguns and bombs. Next.

 Byte wrote:
Wolf scouts with meltaguns and bombs. Next.

Except its entirely possable the Wolf Scouts may not be able to legally deploy back there


Using the fortress to hide units is a good idea, using it this way is inefficient as you can only protect 1-2 tanks like this.

A better way is to just have it where you would place it normally and then hide your other stuff behind it whereever. Just use it to block line of sight, blocking LoS and movement of any kind is overkill.

Well, you could just take a cheap platoon with conscripts, and have the conscripts literally bubble wrap the artillery to the point where nothing can get near them. Heck, I've bubble wrapped tanks in the open with nothing but guardsmen before. In a closed space where they can hide, it'd be even more easy.

However, the moment you ran into fliers, or another army fielding ordnance, you're going to have a bad time. Plus, that thing seriously eats into your points, so you'll have less on the table. While those units will be protected behind the fortress, the rest of your army will be annihilated out in the open against a larger force.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I know the perfect counter: Grey Knights, three Techmarines and two Brother-Captains, five Orbital Bombardments a turn. Counter THAT, hidden-from-LOS-long-ranged-artillery-tanks!.

Ooh, and you could even hide them behind your own fortress of redemption!


(Sadly this doesn't work because the OSR isn't a barrage weapon and still needs LOS to shoot.)

Easy enough, just hide on top of your fortress

It's definitely a good idea, then your guard army gets the cover, you get the Icarus Lascannon and Krakstorm Missiles are always going to be worth it. I would have picked different tanks behind it though.

This is why TOs worth their salt do not allow this fortification or the skyshield.

Simply having a flyer is not a solve to this tactic. Remember they are carrying the icarus lascannon as well so they will get an interceptor shot when you come on.

In addition your almost certainly going to get a 4+ cover save from the fortress itself.

The FoR is a very expensive fortification but can be very worth it for armies such as Guard.

Glocknall wrote:Simply having a flyer is not a solve to this tactic. Remember they are carrying the icarus lascannon as well so they will get an interceptor shot when you come on.

One shot. Likely at BS3. Plus, it's not like you can bring a couple of fliers at a time.

Glocknall wrote:In addition your almost certainly going to get a 4+ cover save from the fortress itself.

That's actually doubtful. Your opponent can move up right to the very edge of your deployment zone and throw a shot down. Given that they're up so high, it's really unlikely that 25% of the model will actually be covered.

I don't know Ailaros, any guard player with half a brain would have a vet squad or his CCS manning that icarus lascannon. Plus, I don't know if you've seen the fortress up close, but it is gigantic. I can see someone having no problem at all with getting the 25% cover save with vehicles even against a flyer.

You also have to remember that fliers have a very restricted movement, and it would take it a couple of turns to get to where it needs to shoot, if it makes it all.

Your only real answers to this are something like Marbo or artillery of your own. Other than that, you'd just have to play around it and play the mission to beat the guy, which shouldn't be too hard when even at 2k points, he has a 1/4 of his army tied up in a corner unable to move.

Yeah, I'll second the size issue. It's frakkin huge.

Although a Flyer could still get a clear shot at something behind the fortress the turn it comes on, depending on where exactly the target in question is relative to other models.

Glocknall wrote:
This is why TOs worth their salt do not allow this fortification or the skyshield.

Simply having a flyer is not a solve to this tactic. Remember they are carrying the icarus lascannon as well so they will get an interceptor shot when you come on.

In addition your almost certainly going to get a 4+ cover save from the fortress itself.

The FoR is a very expensive fortification but can be very worth it for armies such as Guard.

whats wrong with the skyshield?

sirlynchmob wrote:

Glocknall wrote:
This is why TOs worth their salt do not allow this fortification or the skyshield.

Simply having a flyer is not a solve to this tactic. Remember they are carrying the icarus lascannon as well so they will get an interceptor shot when you come on.

In addition your almost certainly going to get a 4+ cover save from the fortress itself.

The FoR is a very expensive fortification but can be very worth it for armies such as Guard.

whats wrong with the skyshield?

Gives a +4 invuln to anything you put up there.

Including tanks apparently. I've noticed IG players are sticking russes, manticores, and other high firepower choices up there to give them the invuln save and make them harder to shoot.

Glocknall wrote:
This is why TOs worth their salt do not allow this fortification or the skyshield.

Actually the reason TOs don't allow those fortifications is that tournaments tend to use tables with preset terrain and the players aren't allowed to move it. The skyshield and fortress are both huge models that don't easily fit on a table without moving the terrain, so the simplest way to solve the problem is to just ban them.

Well, do some basic geometry here. A flier is shooting its guns from 8" up off the table, at something that is 6" away from it. That means its pointing down at more than a 45" angle. Put another way, it's basically shooting straight down on top of it. There's no way that the vehicle is getting obscurement from that.

Furthermore, there are fliers that can do some serious damage (like vendettas, which still get to snap fire the other two twin-linked lascannons), or storm ravens (say hello to BS4 twin-linked multimelta in melta range), or death rays, etc. Then, as if that wasn't enough, there are also bomber fliers that are able to throw attacks down on them just by flying over them. There's literally no way to stop these kinds of attacks.

As for the Icarus, if it was really so good, then by now we'd see everybody with an icarus, and a steep decline in the number of people bringing fliers. In fact, the opposite is true. Probably because it only gets a single non-twin-linked shot that still has to roll high enough to penetrate, and still needs to roll high enough to wreck (and even then, you might be seeing a S10 pie plate of debris landing right on those vehicles anyways).

 Ailaros wrote:
Well, do some basic geometry here. A flier is shooting its guns from 8" up off the table, at something that is 6" away from it. That means its pointing down at more than a 45" angle. Put another way, it's basically shooting straight down on top of it. There's no way that the vehicle is getting obscurement from that.

IOW, it can't shoot at all, because you're limited to a 45* angle in elevation.

Why would the vendetta be snapfiring its other two lascannons? Flyers can fire up to 4 weapons at full BS, so the vendetta will always be able to fire all 3 lascannons at full effect.

 Ailaros wrote:

Glocknall wrote:Simply having a flyer is not a solve to this tactic. Remember they are carrying the icarus lascannon as well so they will get an interceptor shot when you come on.

One shot. Likely at BS3. Plus, it's not like you can bring a couple of fliers at a time.

Glocknall wrote:In addition your almost certainly going to get a 4+ cover save from the fortress itself.

That's actually doubtful. Your opponent can move up right to the very edge of your deployment zone and throw a shot down. Given that they're up so high, it's really unlikely that 25% of the model will actually be covered.

Command platoon mans the Icarus, so BS4 twin-linked with cloaks for 3+ cover save.
And it's not like IG don't have the best flyer in the game to go and dogfight with.

It's not a bad investment for what you get. S9 twin-linked interceptor, and S9 AP3 pie plate, along with protection for two tanks (I use basilisk and manticore).

-Matt

I am surprised the tournament allows it. It is huge.

If you didn't bring the fortress you would line up leman russes to make a similar av14 wall. No one would think twice.

Fortresses are cheap. You are bringing an immobile land raider after all.
You can have all the doors at the back, leading towards your objectives. You can bring plenty of heavy weapons that would like something to shoot from.

My only issues are that you now need to be outside to shoot the lascannon and probably outside to shoot the silo, after the FAQ.

 Ailaros wrote:

Glocknall wrote:Simply having a flyer is not a solve to this tactic. Remember they are carrying the icarus lascannon as well so they will get an interceptor shot when you come on.

One shot. Likely at BS3. Plus, it's not like you can bring a couple of fliers at a time.

Glocknall wrote:In addition your almost certainly going to get a 4+ cover save from the fortress itself.

That's actually doubtful. Your opponent can move up right to the very edge of your deployment zone and throw a shot down. Given that they're up so high, it's really unlikely that 25% of the model will actually be covered.

Remember the fortress has a HUGE bastion at its center and two satellite bunkers on either side. Use corner deployment and it almost impossible to be denied cover by a flyer. Make sure your arty tanks abut the walls of the FoR and its guaranteed 4+ cover. I think the FoR is a points steal. With it you get:

-STR 8 AP3 ordnance barrage
-Aegis Defense line.
-Icarus lascannon
-Massive LOS blocking for your fragile Barrage tanks.

I'd take this every day if I didn't feel it wasn't horribly broken.

If you're using the awful deployment rules, you could always stick a large piece of impassable / awkward terrain in the gap behind it so he couldn't put his tanks there...

It just doesn't seem that wise a maneuver, you're paying a lot of points for something where, chances are, you could end up with a half decent hiding spot anyways.

 Compel wrote:
If you're using the awful deployment rules, you could always stick a large piece of impassable / awkward terrain in the gap behind it so he couldn't put his tanks there...

It just doesn't seem that wise a maneuver, you're paying a lot of points for something where, chances are, you could end up with a half decent hiding spot anyways.

Didn't even think of that. It wouldn't be hard in the slightest to just completely shaft his deployment if you were clever about it.

That said, many stores have it houseruled where you place fortifications after terrain, so this may not work for everyone who's up against this sort of thing.

I would love this setup against my Nid's. Easiest kills in Deathleaper history.
And for folks who don't have Lictors or outflankers just use jump troops. They can go right over the bastion walls.

 Gloomfang wrote:
I would love this setup against my Nid's. Easiest kills in Deathleaper history.
And for folks who don't have Lictors or outflankers just use jump troops. They can go right over the bastion walls.

Kinda hard to do when all the space is covered in guardsmen. 1" rule and all.